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Thread: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

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    The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    So... I’m in a bit of a conundrum in flirting with the idea of possibly doing a PC build based on the AMD Ryzen Generation 3 processors this fall. Obviously, this will require a return to Windows (which I don’t love in any sense) but am familiar with since I use it at the day job. The obvious thing that would make me kill the idea would be if Apple introduced a modular designed computer (yeah I know it's more of a dream than a reality) without some of the pro features like 4x GPU’s (instead maybe 2x GPU’s Max would be a healthy alternative) or limiting RAM to say 256-512GB (instead of 1.5TB) for half the cost. I’m sure the Mac Pro will be great but I can’t justify the price of it for my needs... I find the iMac and Mac Mini to be just a bit too limiting as it applies to futureproofing without upgrading often. I primarily use software that’s OS agnostic (Capture One and looking to go all in on Davinci Resolve/LumaFusion for iOS for video if I go Windows) so that’s not an issue but generally speaking the software still performs better on MacOS whether it’s a genuine Apple or a Hackintosh (which I don’t have much time/patience to constantly tinker on). I’m trying to keep costs to $4k (or less) if possible. I don’t have any real loyalty towards Intel, AMD, or NVidia personally but AMD seems to be the value leader when it comes to a balance between multi-thread processors at reasonable costs, OpenCL support, and yes gaming should I choose to ever do any. I will say that if the Ryzen 3 processors live up to the hype that they’ll be a real game changers so to speak but Intel having Thunderbolt and QuickSync (for software that takes advantage) is a great thing though there are AMD X570 motherboards that will include TB3 (and rumored to add USB4) this generation.

    Is anyone else debating future computer systems? I know in the end the realistic option is going to come to a compromise between hardware or software... not a really easy answer for me right now.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    I'm thinking the hardware should be mostly built around the needs of that video-editing software. This appears to be a good place to start:

    https://www.richardlackey.com/davinc...reality-check/

    Mac vs Windows: I have no particular opinion, save that with Windows PCs, you have more GPU choices at your disposal, and have more flexibility to cut costs in areas that don't matter so much.

    "Future proofing"? Haha, beyond 18 months or so who can predict what the future holds?

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    I do no video, so Mac hardware satisfies my needs. My brother-in-law, who now adds video (Resolve) to his photography work, has left Apple for Dell. He's getting equal power from a $7K iMac pro vs. a $5K Dell laptop. (This shows that his video needs aren't THAT extreme.) All the 3D modeling people with whom he shares studio space run PCs for crunching and Mac laptops for personal use.

    Of course, one could set up an eGPU box, but not all software supports them.

    I went to Windows for three years during the Sculley era (well, it was Diablo that did it) but moved back with Steve Jobs. To my mind, the difference between a work Windows computer and a home one is who does the system maintenance. At work, someone else keeps the system running and up-to-date. I HATED doing that myself on Windows. Not that Apple is flawless - far from it - but systems headaches are trivial by comparison.

    Good luck,

    Matt
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Well Tre, good luck with your plans. In the past I have used both Macs and PCs side by side (and many other systems). I will stick with Macs, if needed use PC functionality in emulation.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well Tre, good luck with your plans. In the past I have used both Macs and PCs side by side (and many other systems). I will stick with Macs, if needed use PC functionality in emulation.
    Yeah I hadnít decided either way and if Apple offered a more afforadable modular option it would be an easier decision. The reality is that an iMac will likely work but nothing can be upgraded besides the RAM any the end user... then youíre dealing with throttling and heat issues. I really donít want a Mac Mini because Iíd be buying another new computer in a few years if I did. Mac Pro is out of the question for now but Iíd love one even if itís more than I need in the immediate future. In any case Iíd probably choose AMD GPU because theyíre better at OpenCL in general... so the whole lack of NVidia support matters most to gamers IMO.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Tre, I agree.
    Apple needs to consider more the needs of more regular folks.
    A MacBook Pro with a CalDigit TS3 Plus Thunderbolt 3 Dock might be a better option.
    I will have another look at this subject in the fall/winter.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Tre, I agree.
    Apple needs to consider more the needs of more regular folks.
    A MacBook Pro with a CalDigit TS3 Plus Thunderbolt 3 Dock might be a better option.
    I will have another look at this subject in the fall/winter.
    Yeah thatís true. Part of my thinking is that Intel is having a lot of trouble with getting their new chip designs launched over the last few years. I think itís time that Apple consider buying from both Intel and AMD... or just go to AMD in their desktops since many applications are already designed to take advantage of multithread performance. Intel is a better option for laptops still IMO.

    I guess it still all comes down to if I want hardware flexibility or if I want software optimization. I lean towards the software side but I just want the right hardware options too.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Yeah thatís true. Part of my thinking is that Intel is having a lot of trouble with getting their new chip designs launched over the last few years. I think itís time that Apple consider buying from both Intel and AMD... or just go to AMD in their desktops since many applications are already designed to take advantage of multithread performance. Intel is a better option for laptops still IMO.
    My understanding is that Apple is moving toward bypassing Intel and AMD altogether and using proprietary ARM chips like in its iPhones and iPads for its laptops and desktops.

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    My understanding is that Apple is moving toward bypassing Intel and AMD altogether and using proprietary ARM chips like in its iPhones and iPads for its laptops and desktops.
    Yeah I've seen that but I donít know that theyíre powerful enough right now for all desktop applications... and I suspect itíll take some time for companies to port existing software from x86 to iOS/ARM based processors.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    To my mind, the difference between a work Windows computer and a home one is who does the system maintenance. At work, someone else keeps the system running and up-to-date. I HATED doing that myself on Windows. Not that Apple is flawless - far from it - but systems headaches are trivial by comparison.

    Good luck,

    Matt
    This is my main issue with Windows computers as well. Not only is the maintenance more complicated and time consuming, but there's more of it as well. I've worked in mixed Mac/Windows environments for the last 20+ years, and there's no comparison. With Macs, users mostly manage by themselves, while with Windows PCs, they don't, and if they try, they often end up screwing up further.

    Still, I try to stay away from software that only works on Mac, and for video editing, I considered moving from Premiere to Final Cut, but have now downloaded DaVinci Resolve to see if that is something that I can live with. I'm trying to limit my use of Adobe products for cost reasons, but easy it is not.

    One budget way of getting to a powerful, expandable Mac is buying the last models of the Mac Pro 5,1 that was manufactured from 2010-2012. OWC offers some pretty sofisticated upgrade kits for it, and sometimes even have used ones for sales where you can have them tailor make it to your own specifications. It must be a 5,1 though. I have the 4,1, and there are limitations.

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    [COLOR=#ffffff]... Is anyone else debating future computer systems? I know in the end the realistic option is going to come to a compromise between hardware or software... not a really easy answer for me right now.
    Not me.

    Between the 2018 iPad Pro 11" (still have my 2015? iPad Pro 12.3" and it's still working fine too) and mid-2012 Mac mini, all my needs are fulfilled. I'm upgrading the Mac mini (also still working fine, btw) to a current model this year (fully stuffed) and expect it will last me the next seven to nine years.

    That's about as fast a turnover as I need, and I've not had any reason to upgrade the 2012 Mac mini other than to fully stuff it with RAM (which I should have done when I bought it) and put an SSD in it. Easy.

    Every time I've used Windows systems, they've annoyed me too much to be even something I'd consider. If I moved to any other desktop OS, it would be Linux but the complexity of finding decent software and maintaining it on Linux is too much effort for me. Most of what I use on iOS has its designed complement on macOS. Life is simple and easy this way, for me at least.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Not me.

    Between the 2018 iPad Pro 11" (still have my 2015? iPad Pro 12.3" and it's still working fine too) and mid-2012 Mac mini, all my needs are fulfilled. I'm upgrading the Mac mini (also still working fine, btw) to a current model this year (fully stuffed) and expect it will last me the next seven to nine years.

    That's about as fast a turnover as I need, and I've not had any reason to upgrade the 2012 Mac mini other than to fully stuff it with RAM (which I should have done when I bought it) and put an SSD in it. Easy.

    Every time I've used Windows systems, they've annoyed me too much to be even something I'd consider. If I moved to any other desktop OS, it would be Linux but the complexity of finding decent software and maintaining it on Linux is too much effort for me. Most of what I use on iOS has its designed complement on macOS. Life is simple and easy this way, for me at least.
    I've been exploring Linux options too... I have some limited experience with it from working with it on Sun Supercomputers back in my military days when that was a thing I had to do for some intensive geospatial processes...

    Perhaps I'll just wait for now and maybe upgrade to the newest iPad Pro this fall and see what Apple will do. I don't want to go to a Windows machine for personal usage but I will if Apple doesn't come up with a sensibly priced and spec'ed modular desktop solution. Mac Mini won't really work for me personally long term and the iMac design precludes Apple from taking the most advantage of the processors due to the last of proper airflow/cooling.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Jorgen

    Thanks for the info.

    "One budget way of getting to a powerful, expandable Mac is buying the last models of the Mac Pro 5,1 that was manufactured from 2010-2012."

    This is very interesting and relatively inexpensive for a workhorse machine.

    Paul

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Iím a Windows-only user (apart from IOS om my iPhone and iPadÖ) and donít like Windows at all. However, once the application (PS, C1, etc.) has been started up I donít notice anything about Windows in the background. Same with MacOS.

    As a side note I have zero system maintenance issues over the past 15+ years of Windows use. All updates/upgrades work flawlessly and will be carried out automatically once becoming available, similar as with the iPad updates.

    Sooooo, whatís the real point then with MacOs vs. Win once the app has been started up?



    Regards,
    Jaap.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    I’m also os agnostic in the apps. However, the file transfers between Mac and Windows are more problematic as my archives are all Mac.

    exFat helps but it’s still an issue. I use a Wacom PC in the field but the rest of post processing at home is all Mac.

    NTFS and Mac NTFS drivers make life easier on fixed disks.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    The World is a book, and those that do not travel read only one page ...
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    The only times I've owned Windows machines was when I needed to run CAD software that was not ported to Mac. ie Pro/Engineer and way before that Cadkey. Windows is such a mess to configure and update not to mention the lousy interface

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by JaapD View Post
    Iím a Windows-only user (apart from IOS om my iPhone and iPadÖ) and donít like Windows at all. However, once the application (PS, C1, etc.) has been started up I donít notice anything about Windows in the background. Same with MacOS.

    As a side note I have zero system maintenance issues over the past 15+ years of Windows use. All updates/upgrades work flawlessly and will be carried out automatically once becoming available, similar as with the iPad updates.

    Sooooo, whatís the real point then with MacOs vs. Win once the app has been started up?



    Regards,
    Jaap.
    As I stated in my first post... I'm familiar with Windows (use it at the day job) but prefer not to use it at home. A lot comes to personal preference and I just find that MacOS is more stable for me. I've forced my Mac to upgrade to a higher OS that should give it a bit more life until I make a decision but that decision will likely just lead me to an iPad Pro/ Desktop Mac combo down the line. Also, I use some other MacOS exclusive programs like FCPX... I've looked into the alternatives like Davinci Resolve but those are truly workarounds.

    As they say YMMV.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Iím also os agnostic in the apps. However, the file transfers between Mac and Windows are more problematic as my archives are all Mac.

    exFat helps but itís still an issue. I use a Wacom PC in the field but the rest of post processing at home is all Mac.

    NTFS and Mac NTFS drivers make life easier on fixed disks.
    Yeah, I found that to be a huge conundrum for me as I've been MacOSat home for the last 16 years. Switching to PC would probably push me to starting a new catalog for photos from fresh under a Windows file system which I really don't want to do.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    So... Iím in a bit of a conundrum in flirting with the idea of possibly doing a PC build based on the AMD Ryzen Generation 3 processors this fall. Obviously, this will require a return to Windows (which I donít love in any sense) but am familiar with since I use it at the day job. The obvious thing that would make me kill the idea would be if Apple introduced a modular designed computer (yeah I know it's more of a dream than a reality) without some of the pro features like 4x GPUís (instead maybe 2x GPUís Max would be a healthy alternative) or limiting RAM to say 256-512GB (instead of 1.5TB) for half the cost. Iím sure the Mac Pro will be great but I canít justify the price of it for my needs... I find the iMac and Mac Mini to be just a bit too limiting as it applies to futureproofing without upgrading often. I primarily use software thatís OS agnostic (Capture One and looking to go all in on Davinci Resolve/LumaFusion for iOS for video if I go Windows) so thatís not an issue but generally speaking the software still performs better on MacOS whether itís a genuine Apple or a Hackintosh (which I donít have much time/patience to constantly tinker on). Iím trying to keep costs to $4k (or less) if possible. I donít have any real loyalty towards Intel, AMD, or NVidia personally but AMD seems to be the value leader when it comes to a balance between multi-thread processors at reasonable costs, OpenCL support, and yes gaming should I choose to ever do any. I will say that if the Ryzen 3 processors live up to the hype that theyíll be a real game changers so to speak but Intel having Thunderbolt and QuickSync (for software that takes advantage) is a great thing though there are AMD X570 motherboards that will include TB3 (and rumored to add USB4) this generation.

    Is anyone else debating future computer systems? I know in the end the realistic option is going to come to a compromise between hardware or software... not a really easy answer for me right now.
    If anyone is still interested in this topic, I did a recent Windows build that saved me over $10,000 over buying the new Mac Pro. Like someone pointed out above, once you're in Photoshop, it doesn't matter what the OS isóthey both look and work the same. And, Windows is not that bad to useóthis is coming from someone who has only used Macs for 30 years. Article on my experience here: https://nine-volt.com/blogs/news/bui...d-of-the-price

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    A Mac mini 2019 six core fully stuffed is more than fast and future-proof enough for me. My Mac mini 2012 is still going strong but a tad slow now, the new one is running rings around it.

    Lessee: I paid $1200 for that mini 2012 and it is eight years old, still going. I paid $1800 for the new one, it'll probably last the same. The 2012 machine required virtually no maintenance at all, I expect the same for the new one.

    Why should I invest oodles of time and money learning how to build a custom computer and run an OS I have zero knowledge of when what I have does everything I need, will cost me less than $150/year on average, and lets me put all of my time, energy, and money into what I want to do rather than dealing with the equipment to do it?



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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    A number of months ago my late 2013 Mac Pro trashcan was overheating all the time - no airflow. Once I brushed out all the dust at the bottom of the unit and reestablished full airflow it has been working like new.

    Problem solved for now.

    I think I should brush out the crud more often than once in 6 years.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD View Post
    If anyone is still interested in this topic, I did a recent Windows build that saved me over $10,000 over buying the new Mac Pro. Like someone pointed out above, once you're in Photoshop, it doesn't matter what the OS isóthey both look and work the same. And, Windows is not that bad to useóthis is coming from someone who has only used Macs for 30 years. Article on my experience here: https://nine-volt.com/blogs/news/bui...d-of-the-price
    I bought an iPad Pro in October 2019 and a 16Ē MacBook Pro (i9-9980, 32 GB RAM, 5500m 8GB, 2TB SSD, etc.) in January of this year. Still want a desktop ultimately but perhaps I can hold off a few more years until I see what will happen with the ARM based chipsets now.

    The more I thought about it and researched the more hesitant I was to go the Windows route. Iíd be forced back to Adobe unless Davinci improved some processing of ProRES and added native ProRES RAW support. In reality I really donít like using Windows still... and if truly building an apples to apples system there isnít a large price difference between a Mac Pro and what you can get on a Windows machine with the same exact parts. Obviously you can surpass the Mac Pro in raw power with AMD based chipsets but that ignores the benefits you receive in software optimization within a semi-closed system that Apple provides.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    ďPerhaps I can hold off a few more years until I see what will happen with the ARM based chipsets now.Ē

    Yup.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    ďPerhaps I can hold off a few more years until I see what will happen with the ARM based chipsets now.Ē

    Yup.
    It was an expensive stopgap (upwards of $4K) but my old MBP is a 2009 with a lot of customized upgrades.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Awesome PC build, looks like a sci-fi movie prop! But why the choice of Geforce RX rather than Quadro RX video?

    I'm alright with Windows 10, some things I like better versus Mac OS Catalina, others less so.

    MacOS Big Sur running on ARM and iOS 14 should be interesting though: Will they really manage to make jumping between devices as seamless as the videos suggest? They've tried this before with Handoff, but this latest effort seems much more ambitious what with apps making it to Mac OS and even Airpod Pro doing a (Dolby Atmos!) juggling act between devices.

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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    Awesome PC build, looks like a sci-fi movie prop! But why the choice of Geforce RX rather than Quadro RX video?

    I'm alright with Windows 10, some things I like better versus Mac OS Catalina, others less so.

    MacOS Big Sur running on ARM and iOS 14 should be interesting though: Will they really manage to make jumping between devices as seamless as the videos suggest? They've tried this before with Handoff, but this latest effort seems much more ambitious what with apps making it to Mac OS and even Airpod Pro doing a (Dolby Atmos!) juggling act between devices.
    I think itís possible. In a pinch my iPad Pro makes an excellent extended display to my 16Ē MBP. I believe that once the Mac and iOS app stores are unified on some deeper level, we will see a deeper level of integration and maturation of whatís possible. Imagine a time when developers donít have to make scaled down versions of desktop class apps. Imagine what that would do for the photographer and/or content creator when your phone can literally handle editing 4k video and instantly upload to websites like YouTube or social media sites without the need for a $2k+ computer. I mean if Iím being honest I can do this on a iPad Pro now without any issues at all. What will be different is that with external storage there really wonít be any real limitations to the process. Essentially ARM chipsets will democratize matures production through desktop class apps that can be used for both mobile and traditional desktop machines. Iíd be interested to see if Apple incorporates AMD GPUís with their new ARM chipsets but I imagine theyíll look to scale power by means of running multiple ARM cores on a single board to scale processing power accordingly.

    Itís sort of exciting and most anyone that has used a 2018 or newer iPad Pro can likely appreciate the experience... even more so since they added a true file type system and native external drive and Bluetooth accessory support.
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    Re: The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    Awesome PC build, looks like a sci-fi movie prop! But why the choice of Geforce RX rather than Quadro RX video?

    I'm alright with Windows 10, some things I like better versus Mac OS Catalina, others less so.

    MacOS Big Sur running on ARM and iOS 14 should be interesting though: Will they really manage to make jumping between devices as seamless as the videos suggest? They've tried this before with Handoff, but this latest effort seems much more ambitious what with apps making it to Mac OS and even Airpod Pro doing a (Dolby Atmos!) juggling act between devices.
    GeForce RTX 2080ti is about $1200 whereas a comparable Quadra RTX card is about $4500. Crazy thing is, the performance numbers on both are nearly the sameótake a look on Geekbench or any other system tester. So that's why I went with the 2080ti. Although Quadra cards can be daisy chained together (which means you can add up their combined RAM) where I don't think you can with the GeForce cards.

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