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Thread: Okay, I'm a glutton...

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Recently set up a wide-gamut NEC 30" display and am loving it. Loving it so much I added a 'tiny' 24" display vertical off to the side for C1 and CS menus so I can see more of the image on the NEC as I edit! Now I'm actually thinking a second 30" NEC for hosting my reference image while I edit my proof would be really sweet. Hence I'm curious if anybody here is running anything like this and how it works in practice?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    It is so nice to be around this forum where the are other people around to make me feel less guily about my own gluttonous technology problem

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I'm not even going to comment on this one. I just bought one NEC and a 7900 printer and my ski masks have been fried to a crisp.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    When I saw the title of this thread, and that Guy was the last poster, I though, "Of course you are."

    Then I saw that it was Jack. Birds of a feather, I guess.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    He is actually worse than me and starts it all. At least he is who I blame when my wife starts giving me the look. Hey it works . LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Okay councelor, I will rephrase:

    Is there anyone out there willing to ADMIT they are running a pair of wide-gamut monitors to host both the reference and working image while editing?

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I refuse to answer any questions regarding any gear purchase on the grounds that i could incriminate myself. I'll take the 5th but happily be able to say no in this case. But don't get me thinking either.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Dude, tell me that again next week AFTER your 7900 is up and running!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I've got the NEC 26" model (hmm, why oh why didn't I just go for the 30"). Anyway, I've been thinking about a second monitor for menus. You might want to check out the NEC P221W. I've seen it as low as $419 with free shipping on ebay (use bing and even less). Not sure what the difference is quality wise with their higher priced monitors but the CNET review was good and if it's just being used for menus, why pay more than double for the 24" WUXI? It uses Spectraview and has 96% Adobe RGB.

    Question: is the Spectraview license good for only one monitor?

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Recently set up a wide-gamut NEC 30" display and am loving it. Loving it so much I added a 'tiny' 24" display vertical off to the side for C1 and CS menus so I can see more of the image on the NEC as I edit! Now I'm actually thinking a second 30" NEC for hosting my reference image while I edit my proof would be really sweet. Hence I'm curious if anybody here is running anything like this and how it works in practice?
    I'm in a fairly unique situation here in that I work for a dealer for LaCie and Eizo and we have rental/demo monitors galore. Therefore I can make decisions about the arrangement/use of those monitors with no regard for price but only about what works best.

    I've found it's hard to beat a single 30" monitor for main image preview with a smaller (20"-24") vertical as you describe it. One thing that helps is if you use an Ergotron arm (we're dealers for them too) to bring that monitor forward and turned towards the main monitor so that as you move your eyes to the second monitor it is perpendicular to your view (less glare, no perspective-scewing, much better readability of the far side of the 2nd monitor).

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    To clarify,

    I have an inexpensive Acer 24" as my menu display monitor -- I chose it simply because it pivoted and it's tough to find 1080P monitors that pivot vertical nowadays. And it is sitting at angle as Doug describes.

    What I'm thinking here however, is actually having a pair of matched wide-gamut monitors in addition to the menu monitor, so THREE monitors total! One smaller one for menus (I'd position it to the right), one wide-gamut to display the working image (positioned center), and then a second matched wide-gamut monitor (off to the left) to display the reference image while I'm editing the working file to match it -- the purpose of teh second wide-gamut to replace toggling proof view on and off my working image or having half-image slices up side-by-side on the main monitor while editing. I realize this is an absurdly "gear-aholic" extravagant layout, but curious if anybody is actually doing it.

    In reality, I don't edit critically enough often enough to justify the expense, but am thinking it would be an ideal configuration for critical editing convenience if money and space are no object...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Workshop Member Joseph Ramos's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    That's it I'm selling the business and going to work for Jack!

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Jack,

    When you pivot the monitor do the menus stay upright? I was under the impression it was hard to find a monitor that pivots with a Mac and keeps things upright (I know the NEC's don't).

    CP

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Aaah, think I answered my own question. Looks like it's in the system pref under displays.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    For an erection lasting longer than four hours see your doctor.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    from left to right, I have:
    Eizo CG241, Mac 24 (both running off my Macpro
    and next
    30" dell running off my Dell workstation.

    of course photography is for fun, eh? the dell pays the bills

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    Jack,

    When you pivot the monitor do the menus stay upright? I was under the impression it was hard to find a monitor that pivots with a Mac and keeps things upright (I know the NEC's don't).

    CP
    Yep, the little Acer does this perfectly using the built-in Mac OS display orientation setting. Works the same way with C1 menus over there, which is really nice too. So I have a couple different saved workspaces for both programs running dual...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I have this feeling you hit the buy button.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    no personal experience ... but I've heard a lot about color management trouble with dual monitors in conjunction with MAC & CS3+4 (sometimes the second monitor "loses" its profile and the primary profile is assigned; sometimes BPC doesn't work accurately; moving windows left to right or vice versa can cause trouble... etc.).
    This comes from quite a few pre press professionals so I think it's not just talk...
    So I'd run at least a thorough test before deciding to buy anything.

    Too ... in the league of your NEC you won't find two monitors that match exactly (I mean: really accurately) - this is only possible with high end displays. And as you want to use it for editing in proof mode with the original file on the second monitor as reference I think it's not really a good idea. Maybe a good idea ... but hard to put into practice.

    I for one love to work with single monitor... if your shortcuts are well organized (to show/hide tools etc.) it's okay.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Jack, which NEC model did you end up with, and how is the consistency across the screen? My wife is a graphic designer and she tried the NEC 30"(3090W IIRC) and it was just pathetic. When displaying a grey background there was a reddish bloom from the lower right that took up 1/3 of the screen and the brightness was noticeably inconsistent across the screen. B&H was very nice about the return, and she's going for the lower-end Eizo 30"(FlexScan SX3031W IIRC) once we get our tax return.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Dave,

    I have the 3090 Spectraview that is bundled with the puck and software and renders 97% Adobe. Supposedly those panels are hand-selected for uniformity, then NEC adds a uniformity toggle in the software. I did see some slight corner pinks when I first fired it up until I turned the uniformity on, then it disappeared and the monitor is dead neutral gray corner to corner. Next I can profile this monitor to D65, 2.2 gamma and 140 Lumens and end up with dE's under 1.0, which is freaking phenomenal in my world...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Thomas,

    Your post just makes me more determined to try it for myself
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I just knew that was coming. No one NEC is just fine for me. Besides i can't run two monitors, running my world off a laptop and the NEC.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Thanks Jack, she bought the 3090WQXi, figuring that the difference was just some calibration software, which she already had -- with a puck. I think the B&H salesperson told her that. It's sounding like there is a difference in the HW.

    I don't know what the dE number is, but it sounds like you're very happy with the uniformity -- and I'd trust you to be critical on that. Any thoughts about the Eizo that I mentioned? I figure you probably at least looked at it so I'd be curious to hear why you chose the NEC.
    Last edited by Dave_Anderson; 14th April 2010 at 20:36.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Anderson View Post

    I don't know what the dE number is, but it sounds like you're very happy with the uniformity -- and I'd trust you to be critical on that. Any thoughts about the Eizo that I mentioned? I figure you probably at least looked at it so I'd be curious to hear why you chose the NEC.
    Hi Dave:

    dE is "Delta E" or a standardized error measurement for color displacements. Basically anything under 2.0 means essentially that something like 99% of the population cannot see it. 0 is theoretical perfection, but in reality anything under about 1.5 is academic...

    I did consider the Eizo 30 Coloredge, but price was the killer and only reason I didn't consider it -- I could in fact buy 2 of the NEC 30" and have a few steak dinners left over. At the end of the day I chose the NEC because a few color management gurus I know use it and are very happy...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Okay, you've inspired me to hit the buy button for a second monitor. The set up I'm going with is the NEC 2690WUXI2 I have now and picking up a refurb 1990SX from NEC for $300. It will be used in portrait mode for menus but can be profiled with Spectraview as well. I think a 19" on it's side will be a fairly seamless fit with the 26." It's non-cinema format which I think will actually be better for menus.

    FYI they have the 2690WUXI2 for $759 refurb, a great price ($1200 new). Tempted to just pick up a second one but my desk space just won't allow for it.

    These NEC monitors are great. And like Jack, I considered the EIZO but just couldn't justify the slight increase in iq vs the huge leap in price.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Charles,
    That NEC option for menus sounds great for the 26! Unfortunately for the 30" it's only 1280 on the long side, so a little too shy of the 1600 vertical on the 30 and why I went with a 1080P... Wish there was a 1600x1280 monitor, would be perfect for 30" menus!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    We were considering the $2,700 FlexScan SX3031W - the Coloredge is just too pricey. The DUE(Display Uniformity Equalizer) sounds a lot like the NEC "Uniformity" feature. In fact, this monitor and the NEC that you bought seem pretty much equivalent on paper -- is there a reason you passed over the FlexScan? Would it be too much to ask your guru friends for a quick comparative assessment, if they have any experience with the FlexScan?
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Dave,

    The two gurus I talked to both bought the NEC after test-driving the Coloredge -- not sure they even considered the Flexscan line, sorry...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I'm currently sitting in front of two Dell monitors (2405FPW & 2407WFP) along with a Wacom Cintiq 12WX and a 32" flat screen TV all hooked to dual NVIDA video cards that date back to 2007.

    The 2405 is my main screen while I keep the desktop and tools on the 2407. I used to calibrate both monitors until I noticed that I was doing the bulk of my color work on the 2405. I use the 12WX to run the internet as well as the real purpose - fine adjustments to an image. The 32" is used to run final test on DVDs for fit and general style.

    I'm in the process of looking for a replacement for the 2405 and will go to a 30" as well. Right now and only because I've had such great luck with the Dell monitors I'm leaning towards the 3008WFP Ultrasharp.

    2560x1600, 3000:1, 8ms response time, 16.7 million colors; 100% color gamut and 0.250 mm pixel pitch. It's also DVI-D the same as both the 24's.

    Of course there's the NEC LCD3090WQXI-BK30"

    2560x1600, 1000:1, 6ms response time, 24-bit (16.7 million colors), 0.251 mm pixel pitch. DVI-D as well.

    Both look good to me with the NEC being a tad more expensive. I've been using Spyder3Pro for calibration and can normally get the calibration to within less that 1% on the 2405 (and 2407 when I do it) and that's why I'm leaning towards the 3008.

    Not sure if 4 active monitors qualify me as a glutton....


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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Jack, good info... if people who care about this sort of thing are choosing the NEC over the $5K Eizo, I take that as a very good sign. Let me know if I'm overstepping here, but would it be possible for my wife to take a look? Nobody has these set up anywhere around here, it seems...

    Don, I'd say stay away from the particular NEC model that you mentioned. That's the one that we tried, and came to the conclusion that it sucks too much for words...
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    One word of advice if you buy the NEC: get the Spectraview version with the puck! The LUT it uses is internal (12-bit per channel), and other spectros will profile your computer's video card LUT (usually 8-bit) and leave the monitor's internal LUT linear. By contrast, the Spectraview software sets the computer's video card LUT linear and sets the profile on the internal 12-bit LUT -- and this is the main reason this monitor is so widely chosen...
    Jack
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  34. #34
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Anderson View Post
    Jack, good info... if people who care about this sort of thing are choosing the NEC over the $5K Eizo, I take that as a very good sign. Let me know if I'm overstepping here, but would it be possible for my wife to take a look? Nobody has these set up anywhere around here, it seems...

    Don, I'd say stay away from the particular NEC model that you mentioned. That's the one that we tried, and came to the conclusion that it sucks too much for words...
    Dave,

    Absolutely, feel free to come by and even bring a reference image to inspect if you have one -- just call me first!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Yeah, definitely get the Spectraview. One doesn't need to buy a new puck either if yours is supported, just the software. I have an old Monaco X-Rite puck that I can't even get updated Leopard software for but it works great with the NEC. Maybe not as good as their dedicated puck but close enough for my needs.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Thanks Jack -- I received your PM as well. We're not in a big hurry -- she's very pragmatic about waiting till we have the money, but that won't be long. Actually we have the money, but she wants to wait until we have THE money -- from Uncle Scam.

    Just to be sure we're on the same page -- you bought this one, correct?
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    That is the one, I have the same model. Love it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Terrific, thanks.
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    In my case I decided on getting the Dell 3008WFP which arrived here late Friday afternoon. The real-estate of this monitor is amazing making the 2407 sitting next to it seem small (reminds me of when Ken stands next to me or when Jack & Guy stand next to each other ).

    I had been using two NVIDA Quardo NVS285 graphics cards for my 2-24" monitors as well as my Wacom and 32" TV however the max resolution is "only" 1900x1200 and while the 3008 looks "okay" it really should be connected to a newer card so I've order a new NVS dual link 295 which should be here when I return from the Chiricahua National Monument.

    My first impression of the monitor is very favorable and feel it will really shine once it's connected to a proper card to take advantage of the max resolution of 2560x1600.

    Cheers!


    Don
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  40. #40
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Don, if you were viewing it on a single DVI output, you are going to be blown away when you get it connected to a dual DVI card!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Jack - the monitor is amazing as is the resolution. I finished upgrading one of my NVIDA graphics card from a 285 to 295 so now I have 1 285 running my Wacom and TV while the 295 is running my 24" and 30". No real issues that wasn't my own doing in upgrading the system and the end result was well worth the effort.

    Yes I'm a glutton and a damn proud one at that


    Don
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  42. #42
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    I'm running with an Apple 30in Cinema display, Lacie 19in display and a 21in Cintiq. In my case the challenge has been with matching luminosity across all monitors despite calibration with my ColorMunki.

    The other consideration for me has been the amount of free slots in my MacPro. I have been using 2x Radeon 1900XT cards which unfortunately consume 3 slot spaces in my MacPro. I now have 2x RAID cards which consume slots 3&4 which has necessitated removing one of the Radeons and return to a dual display set up. I now need to look at replacing the video cards to single slot sized versions - I prefer cards from the same manufacturer (& versions) after some horrible interops in the past, even under OS X.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Finally picked up this monitor but finding it a bit fiddly to calibrate -- Seems too blue or too red, when we get what looks like a clean neutral the reds look way oversaturated. This is using Native Color Profile with all other settings at default in SpectraView. sRGB Emulation is the only profile that allows untagged images and backgrounds(like the red on the Netflix home page) to appear without being oversaturated. We just found the Gamma in Nvidia Control Panel was set to 1.0 so we set it to 2.2 and recalibrated -- same result, and then when we switch profiles Nvidia goes back to a gamma of 1.0. Anyone have some tips for calibration starting points?
    α900+VG|F20|2xF58|16-35,24-70,135Z|STF|70-400G|50,85 1.4|16,20,28,100M,80-200APO f/2.8|28-135|500f/8|1x-3xMacro|2xMFC-1000|Tiltall+RRS, Bellows, etc.

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Hi Dave,

    Sorry I missed this, not sure why. Anyway, I did look at the Eizo, and the one I though was visually superior to the NEC was the ColorEdge 301W -- and it was twice the price and I simply could not justify that extra expense. I found the lesser Eizo FlexScan to not have a very even display backlight and so steered away from it. But that was me and YMMV...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Jack, this is the NEC 30" referenced above in post #36. Since you had the same monitor I thought I'd see if you had any setup tips. The oversaturation is really bugging my wife.
    α900+VG|F20|2xF58|16-35,24-70,135Z|STF|70-400G|50,85 1.4|16,20,28,100M,80-200APO f/2.8|28-135|500f/8|1x-3xMacro|2xMFC-1000|Tiltall+RRS, Bellows, etc.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Okay, now I understand, sorry.

    Yes, because the gamut is so wide, websites that run in sRGB will look oversaturated. You get used to that, but it takes a week or so. What counts is how color managed images look inside a color managed software like Photoshop or CaptureOne -- here is where the large gamut monitors shine, especially when soft-proofing. But yes, website shopping online is a hassle because lots of things are the wrong color
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Thanks Jack, at least now I know we're not crazy... at least not WRT this issue My wife is not a "get used to it" kind of person, a real perfectionist. Looks like she'll be flipping between sRGB emulation for surfing and coding and "Native" for color work.
    α900+VG|F20|2xF58|16-35,24-70,135Z|STF|70-400G|50,85 1.4|16,20,28,100M,80-200APO f/2.8|28-135|500f/8|1x-3xMacro|2xMFC-1000|Tiltall+RRS, Bellows, etc.

  48. #48
    jcoffin
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    It's worth noting that some browsers do color management, and others don't. Google Chrome doesn't. Apple Safari does. At least the last time I looked at it, Internet Explorer did not. Firefox can, but (depending on version) can/does disable it by default.

    There are plug-ins you can get to enable it, or you can enable it manually: enter "about:config" in the address bar. This will bring up a "Filter" at the top of the page, followed by a *long* list of settings (most of which you definitely don't want to play with). Enter "color_management" in the filter, and you should get (at least) three settings (each will have "color_management" on the beginning):

    mode: usually set to 1 (full color management), 2 is to manage only tagged photos (and 0 turns it off completely).
    rendering intent: 0 is perceptual, 1 is relatively colorimetric (2 and 3 are saturation and absolute colorimetric, but I can't imagine anybody wants either...)
    display_profile: You can enter a path to your monitor's profile

    If memory serves, when mode is set to 1, it assumes that anything that isn't tagged is sRGB, so most colors don't get so horribly over-saturated.

    These won't even come close to fixing everything, of course, but at least they can make quite a few things noticeably less problematic. Of course, you quickly learn to be annoyed with sites that claim to be for photographers, but strip color profiles out of uploaded photos...

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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Thanks JC, we'll definitely try those. She's a bit more relaxed about the whole thing knowing that her new machine that she is still building will have better color management as it is Win7-64 instead of XP.

    For the gear junkies, that machine is an i7 Quad 3GHz with 24G of RAM, mirrored SSD drives for the OS and a 4TB 5-disk RAID 5 for data. Yes, I'm jealous.
    α900+VG|F20|2xF58|16-35,24-70,135Z|STF|70-400G|50,85 1.4|16,20,28,100M,80-200APO f/2.8|28-135|500f/8|1x-3xMacro|2xMFC-1000|Tiltall+RRS, Bellows, etc.

  50. #50
    jcoffin
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    Re: Okay, I'm a glutton...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Anderson View Post
    Thanks JC, we'll definitely try those. She's a bit more relaxed about the whole thing knowing that her new machine that she is still building will have better color management as it is Win7-64 instead of XP.

    [Edit: I should probably warn that this post has a rather negative tone -- I apologize, but the mention of Windows 7 color management hit a truly raw nerve with me...]

    I wish that were true (and I certainly wish you the best), but my experience has been that Win7's color management is almost stupidly confusing. To me it seems pretty much a given that people who care about color profiles mostly think graphically and work best with pictures. Win7's profile setup runs directly opposite that -- it's the driest list of pure text possible, with labels for things that seem to have been specifically designed to assure that 1) they don't fit any existing terminology, and 2) nobody can be certain what any of them is really supposed to mean.

    Given the general idea of how color profiles work, it seems to me that the right way to do things would be to draw a block diagram of the machine, and let the user attach a profile to a device (or perhaps the line connecting one device to another). For example, I'd like to see something like this:



    As it is, however, I get this:



    I know more than most about both color management and computers/software, but I can't make heads or tails of most of that. It seems to have entries to let me modify things that I can't imagine wanting to change, but none to change any of the things I do want to (like telling it what profile to use for which printer). There are more tabs to that window, but none that seems to really fit at all well with actual color management.

    Having WCS is a great idea -- but at least to me, the current implementation seems to fall squarely into the "What were they thinking?" category.
    Last edited by jcoffin; 28th March 2011 at 08:33.

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