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Thread: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

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    nei1
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    The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    I have always used film,I want to use digital but am concerned at the vast possibilities of changing that image in post processing.My b&w prints have,until very recently,always had a black border proving that Id printed the entire negative,like many others fileing out the neg carrier unless I had access to a focomat.I now realise that this stubborness came firstly from my own vanity and also from an over devotion to the Bresson style.I still only print the whole negative but dont feel the need to show the world that that is what Im doing.
    However, things have moved on a lot since then,photographs can be cut,stitched,roasted,toasted,seasons changed,backgrounds added,warts and lines removed,colours enhanced,new light sources brought in etc,etc,etc.
    All wonderful for the professionals(maybe)but not for me.I still want people to know that whatever skill that I have lies principally behind the camera and not in front of the computer. An answer would be for the viewer to have access to all thats been done in post processing;obviously rediculous.Another would be for the photographer to be able to choose from a list in a program what operations he permits himself to do to his or her images.This list could then be irrevocably linked to that image.
    As people outside the photographic world learn more of the possibilities of this now perfect crime the value of the photograph and photographer will deminish,something done now in the style of what Ive suggested may well save the respect given to those that deserve it.
    thanks for looking,Neil.
    p.s.on rereading this it does come over as a bit abrupt and condeming to those who are experts in photoshop,thats not intended,Ive posted this only as what I hope will be an interesting discussion,the tone in my head was a lot lighter than that produced by my fingers.
    Last edited by nei1; 1st May 2008 at 11:06. Reason: too serious

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    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Neil:

    A few years ago I watched a lecture on photo manipulation put on by a professor at a local art college. He showed samples of what we are doing today, but done a hundred years ago. It all could be done in the past, but just required more skill.

    One example was a group portrait where each portrait was taken separately and assembled into a group portrait that looked like is was shot in one shot. He also showed examples where closed eyes in portraits were replaced with open eyes, warts removed and etc as you described above.


    Robert

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    i agree with Robert, Neil.

    it's always been done... people viewing the image rarely care how a photographer got it there, only that they're drawn to the image... why would you want to take away from the strength of your work by saying what you have or have not done? let it stand on its own!

    (all this is, of course, not applicable to the forum where we all try to find little tips and tricks that others can teach us still, a strong image is a strong image no matter what you do or not do to it!)

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    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Robert I agree that a lot can be done using quite basic techniques,a lot of these invented by portrait photographers at the turn of the last century,spotting the large glass plates etc.These white lies do seem innocuous though in comparison to the transitions available to todays "photographers".regards,Neil.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    +1 to Robert,
    I used to spend a whole lot of time positioning reflectors pre-shot,
    tweaking processing time or temperature post shop,
    and masking, burning, dodging to make the dye transfer mats, not to mention sometime laying on just a little more yellow maybe just here or there for instance.
    I also think that you exert some choices, even with your style, that might be viewed as manipulative such as, choice of film, developer, etc. high key, low key approach to the subject, selection of focal length (ok, what is normal after all..) and lens itself (sharpness, contrast, "drawing" to use my favorite lens tester, Sean Reid's word).
    You still select aperture and dof, what is sharp, what in focus all these are your choices.
    I am afraid that the medium has been in the state of "damnation" for a long time.
    We are just getting a whole lot better at it, and like other visual media, we even find some sharp departures from reality to be pleasing to at least some audience.
    But...
    If you are one of those that only believes that contact prints taken with a lens of focal length equal to the diagonal of the film, you may please yourself and God bless, but I think that you are catering to a diminishing audience because more and more folks know that there are better techniques to fix an image than to just permit spotting and there are many good photographers out there who will use any tool at their disposal to get the desired result.
    In the limit, those photographers are perhaps painters. Is that all bad? Literalism in painting was a fad that lasted not very long because the image buyers wanted some idealized, characterized, or distorted form rather than a blunt literal picture of reality.
    Reality is free, fantasy must be created with more effort.

    -bob

  6. #6
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Bob,theres truth in what you say and I am one of,those,people but I would like to loosen up a little.However my audience is me,I dont photograph for other peoples likes.Im delighted if someone enjoys a photograph but their opinion of whether its good or bad is immaterial as that decision has already been made.Thanks,Neil.

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    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Cam,sorry if this is in the wrong place ,maybe Guy could put it where it should be if needed

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Cam,sorry if this is in the wrong place ,maybe Guy could put it where it should be if needed
    no no no! this is the perfect place, you misunderstood -- or, more likely, i didn't make myself clear my apoligies!

    i'm saying that here we're always sharing tips and tricks and whatnot and want to know how people got a particular look. we're not you average punters

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    It sounds as if your own internal compass will serve you very well when you make the switch to digital. Maybe I'm reading too much into what you said, but it sounded as if you were worried that you might be tempted to stray into some "unethical" territory once you've bitten the forbidden fruit of the digital apple.

    But based on what you've described as your philosophy to date, I wouldn't worry about it. You don't sound like someone who would suddenly start trying to deceive an audience, even an audience of one. You can still print right to the edges of the image. And if you insist on doing so, you can even mimic the limited contrast range of B&W photo paper for a truly authentic feel. I mention mimic because that's a part of it. It isn't the same as analog. For better or worse it's different.

    I bet you'll really like it.

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    If what you show is supposed to be photojournalism, then there is no room for manipulation. If what you show is your art, then there should be no limits on what you do for your images (as long as they are YOUR images, not anyone else's.) Digital has nothing to do with it.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Great subject . Let me stand on the podium and preach a little. I'm from the old school and I have done almost everything i could possible accomplish with everything in camera. I came from transparency film if it was not there after shooting than it is not going to get there after processing. Everything I did with lighting and manipulating a scene is done in camera. Now i still believe in this and this is where the rubber hits the road. Folks should still be doing this all the time in digital. Now i say this for a reason and a educator is what you can call me. i never want to teach someone sloppy practices and this is when the brain says before you shoot a image . oh hell i can fix that in PS. Here is my problem with this it leads exactly to being lazy and forgetting to think in the field and this is where young shooters go wrong and not trained properly. Not saying you can't do it in PS but you need to think about what you are doing and getting all the elements correct in your head. Example when i shoot I think what i need to do to a scene to make it work , be it lighting, composition, elements in the shot and various other things. I'm already working post production in the shot first, than the elements i can't do in a shot i already know what i need to do in PS. It's called visualizing your final result. I would rather see the work go in the camera and than squeeze every drop out of it in camera. Than when in PS you know what you want to do but can change your mind and find another angle. I like to call this garbage in garbage out. Sometimes you just can't invent something that was not there in the first place.

    However having said all that and the preferred way i like to teach and work is getting it in camera first than take whatever needs to be done to enhance your vision than so be it. Now not saying you cant do it in post , no question most things you can what my concern and always will be is people learning to be sloppy and my other concern is new or younger folks that never learned film that this can lead in a very bad direction for them and thinking the world is on automatic. Bad learning habits will lead to garbage out just that simple. I know there maybe some that will flame me for this but PS is a tool to enhance your vision , not a tool to do the work. i hope that made sense.

    Now I love PS but I also don't have the time to get that involved either. i still love the fact it is there when i pull up the image. Now something obviously cannot happen in camera like example someone floating on the water but the secret is shooting it so it works correctly when you do manipulate in PS to merge those two together. You have to previsualize what you want your final to be in your head than you take your tools and make it happen between camera and PS. That is the secret to great photography knowing what you are getting before ever pushing the button. okay off podium. Seriously as a instructor to others and as a shooter I can't press this point enough. The image is already in your head now go get it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    But as Brad mentioned doing this in journalism is forbidden and as it should be, you simple can't change a scene in journalism it is morally worng and not ethical. Your flat out cheating. And many have lost there newspaper gigs over it and they should. There is a fine line you have to watch and not cross with journalism.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Guy,unfortunatly not everyone is going to be taught by someone as responsible or knowledgable as you,many of the newer teachers will have little experience of film and as the years go by its influence could become less and less.Photoshop could efectively become the camera,the photo becoming the most minor part of the image,even the photoshop experts becoming redundent to the computers powers,a quick snapshot of the client turned into whatever age,condition,location they require at the touch of a button and perfectly executed.In relation to truth and honesty pandoras box is well and truely open and it wont and shouldnt be closed,but if people can be told in a simple direct way just how honest an image is by listing what is allowed to be done to this image by the photographer or others(a number,1 to 10 for example tattooed to the image that would indicate the program or restricted version of that program)that could inform the viewer just how real the image is.We already have gps systems to guarantee the photos location,what im suggesting is just an extension of that same knowledge base,a guarantee of truth.
    Last edited by nei1; 1st May 2008 at 16:20.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    That is interesting i never thought of it that way as a rating like that . I guess in a way does it matter though. You know Art is Art they say. I guess the other part of that is how would you rate and would it be accurate. The other issue does a lower or higher rating make is more valuable in the galleries. This one is pretty deep if you get into it.

    On your other point yes as time continues the the art of the old days will certainly diminish. It's sad if you think about it. I consider myself lucky to have lived through those times of the old ways as you say. Yes i feel the 21 year olds beating down my door everyday . But i refuse to roll over and play dead. ROTFLMAO

    This old dog still needs to hunt.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Super Duper
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    I thoight there were already some safeguards built into the camera or some flag in the metadata that flags any changes to the files. I think of was part of the D300 manual I skipped.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    It's funny but I know Canon for sure has this and maybe Nikon they do have a verification software so you can not change the file. They need these for the court system , so no manipulation can be done. Not sure of the whole process but i know it exists.

    May even be hardware
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Nikon has verification software too for digital images so at least the agency can prove it was unaltered at that point.
    But going back to my fairly short journalistic experience with film, although at least with my shots that showed up in print, I never saw an image element added, but I did see burning, dodging, editorial cropping, and creative captions. I was required to submit original negatives and I had almost no control over what part of the frame got used.

    The area that I got most pressured into "manipulation" was ad work.
    That was shortly before I gave photography up as a vocation and turned it into an avocation.
    I took up art as a hobby, watercolor painting actually, and my image goals were not reportage, they were emotional.

    So I maintain that art can be made with photographic tools and that alone should not diminish it.
    But you are really correct on one point, is that one must be absolutely clear of which is intended to be art and which is intended to be reportage.
    -bob

    p.s.
    Did Any Warhol take those Marilyn shots or did he turn shots obtained elsewhere into art?
    No, he used publicity shots for the film Niagara but the resulting false color prints were so clearly altered there was no question about them not being reportage. Now were they art?
    Don't get me started...
    Last edited by Bob; 1st May 2008 at 17:24.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Most of this seems pretty straight forward to me. If it is reportage or for forensic/scientific purpose, no manipulation. However, limited adjustments are permitted with respect to color balance, contrast and sharpening, and cropping, but that is about it. (Spotting is even frowned upon here, and any cloning is definitely not game.) The next step is actually coming into use as "photo interpretation" or "photo representation", where additional work has been done to include things like body shaping and other renderings commonly seen in the ad biz. This is no longer "reportage", but sometimes some folks try to pass it off as such, and this is where a label needs to be added. Everything else falls into a creative art category, and anything goes.

    The greatest problems generally come in how the imagery is used, and sometimes, that gets beyond the control of the photographers intention, but if you are just doing things for yourself, no boundaries in my book. All of the excessive manipulation has been around from the very beginning, so digital has inherited that part, but admittedly, it is much slicker and easier today than in the past. If one's "style" is to be completely true to the original capture, meaning little or no adjustment, then one needs to do all he work before the shutter is pressed. In my book, that is still the best way. However, there sometimes are shots of things that just never seem to work until you do something very drastic and take them into the more artsy world. To me, that is almost a second gift for the artist....being able to transform something they shot into some new interpretation that conveys new meaning, even if fantasy.

    Most of us "know" what we shot, and have some idea of how we intend to use the image, so I really do not see it as an issue, unless one is intentionally trying to deceive people, like the recent shots of over-billowing smoke from a raid, or caribou looking to be at peace with a train in remote reaches of China/Mongolia. Those representations had agendas behind them, and were passed off wrongly as "reportage". Trust me....those guys knew exactly what they were doing, and it was deception.

    I really do not see it as an issue unless/until picking up a camera comes with an automatic ethical bypass of some sort. Go shoot and present your work for what it is and how you intend it to be presented. If is meant as art, say so. If it meant as reportage, be true to those requirements. If it is ad work, most folks already know about airbrushing and stuff from long, long ago, so most do not expect ads to be "real". The entire setting is staged, so why bother with boundaries around showing an image to its best.

    The goal should be to get the best capture one can in camera, but one should not let that crush creativity and artistic rendering once back at the computer "darkroom". Just know the purpose and be true to that representation.

    LJ

  19. #19
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    It could be argued that the only art possible from photography is from its ability to record reality.That is what photography can do,nothing else.Whatever is put in front of the camera,be it a war,a demonstration or a beautiful girl sipping a coca-cola in a studio with wind and smoke machines that is what comes out on the film or sensor.What happens next is the problem,what is done to the image after its been taken directly affects how that image is interpreted,for better or worse by everyone who sees it.
    All Im saying is that as these processes get more and more sophisticated and less and less in the control of even the photoshoppers,that for us to have a firm hold on what reality is in the future we might just need to inform our selves whether what we are looking at is reality or fantasy,these are already becoming blurred,it just might be an idea to start thinking now about how to inform people of what they are looking at so that no control is ever necessary.
    Im not sugesting any kind of censorship,the moretools the better,the more for us to play with,my concern is for the viewer in the near future where it will be impossible to tell the difference between whats real and whats not.
    This scale of reality fixed indelibly to the published print could help keep our feet on the ground.

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    Senior Member Lisa's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    At the risk of reiterating what some have said above, there was never a time when photography *strictly* record Reality with a capital R. Even the simple act of cropping with the viewfinder can seriously change the meaning of an image, omitting pieces of the reality that you want to omit (and ethical photojournalists should avoid doing so if they can help it). Not to mention choice of film; does anyone actually believe Velvia colors?

    I have a copy of an old B&W photo of San Francisco's Cliff House from about the 1890's that appears to show it lit up at night with the moon peering through dramatic clouds in a thunderstorm (there might have even been lightning, I don't recall); however, after reading about the history of the image, it turns out that it was a multiple exposure, taking bits and pieces from different films and combining them. Sure, it takes less training and experience to do it well with Photoshop, but film photographers have been doing the same thing for more than a century. The product wasn't purely "real" then and it isn't purely "real" now.

    I believe your quest for "ensuring reality" in photography is a quixotic one.

    Lisa

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    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I thoight there were already some safeguards built into the camera or some flag in the metadata that flags any changes to the files. I think of was part of the D300 manual I skipped.
    Terry:

    I think that feature is for Forensic and other uses where the photos are used as evidence in court. In the old days, they could always produce the original negatives if they had to. With this feature, they can now produce the original file and prove it wasn't modified.

  22. #22
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Hi Lisa,its my fault for writing like a goldfish,but I do realise that all this went on before,the more famous case of the fairys in the garden believed by Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle,my point is that now there would be "real" fairys in the garden unless there is something telling you that it is a manipulated photograph.Neither am I refering to that it is easier to manipulate an image,Im referring to experts who can create any reality,and I mean reality,they choose and the only way we mere mortals will know that it is not reality is if someone has the decency to tell us.Now decency in this day and age of monopolies and corporate advertising controlling what telivision we watch and what slant a news item will take,is a rare thing.All Im saying is that in the near future we will need that decency and it might not be there.As for Quixotic you might be right but it would be nice to have the choice of whether or not you want to live in a world of dreams.no? all the best Neil.
    Hope this doesnt sound as if Im on a high horse(donkey),if it does please knock me off!
    Last edited by nei1; 2nd May 2008 at 14:09.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Neil,
    While understanding your comments and the question/method you suggest about "grading" an image's "reality index", or something akin, who would make this call or assign the index scale? The photographer is the one that "knows" what they shot. From that point on, that amount of manipulation and type of manipulation may be out of his/her control, so who would be responsible for marking the image's degree of change?

    Your comments about decency and accuracy are respected. The question will still be who is responsible for alerting folks of manipulations? ...the ad/marketing folks that did the manipulations to promote their product? ....the political folks that are pushing their own agenda when they retouched an image? You can see where this is going....

    Not saying that what you are asking about is not important, valid, or considerate, as I agree with you about being misled by image manipulation. Aside from the "locked" forensic image capture also being made available, it seems like the viewer will always be at the mercy of the person submitting/displaying the image, and must "trust" them within the context of that image's use. Make sense?

    LJ

    P.S. There was some discussion a while back about having some sort of "bread crumb" trail of edits tag along with images, embedded in the metadata somehow, but there seem to be ways to circumvent that process also right now, so we are back to that "locked" original being needed for comparison, or something.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Hope this doesnt sound as if Im on a high horse(donkey),if it does please knock me off!
    it actually does a bit but it's obviously important to you so how can anybody honestly knock it? and it's generated interesting answers.

    i still stand by the fact that i think the image is everything. how one may or may not have gotten it is irrelevant to me. i like what i like because i like it. period.

  25. #25
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    All good points LJ,there would have to be a lock somewhere,possibly as I sugested put in by the photographer to prevent any manipulation other than by the programs he allows to be used or parts of programs(photoshop but just white balance and curves,this photograph could be given a toxicity level of "0",a photographer who allows any thing to be done,on advice from the ad, agency,to his photograph well that image would be given a "10". this number would be locked to this image and would always have to be printed with it.You see Im not suggesting that there is any thing wrong with manipulating an image,just that people should know to what extent its been done.Ive no idea how the lock could be protected from hackers but I think its important enough to be tried.

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    Senior Member Lisa's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Hi Lisa,its my fault for writing like a goldfish,but I do realise that all this went on before,the more famous case of the fairys in the garden believed by Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle,my point is that now there would be "real" fairys in the garden unless there is something telling you that it is a manipulated photograph.Neither am I refering to that it is easier to manipulate an image,Im referring to experts who can create any reality,and I mean reality,they choose and the only way we mere mortals will know that it is not reality is if someone has the decency to tell us.Now decency in this day and age of monopolies and corporate advertising controlling what telivision we watch and what slant a news item will take,is a rare thing.All Im saying is that in the near future we will need that decency and it might not be there.As for Quixotic you might be right but it would be nice to have the choice of whether or not you want to live in a world of dreams.no? all the best Neil.
    Hope this doesnt sound as if Im on a high horse(donkey),if it does please knock me off!
    Regarding your last statement: Not at all! You have started an interesting discussion. I would just argue at this point that if you were to try to either ensure something like "reality" in photography, or assign a "reality number" to digital images, you really need to do the same for film images too. (Another example: Infrared film portrays one aspect of reality, but it's certainly not one that people can see. Is that "real" or not?)

    On that subject, I agree with previous posters here that, if you want to go that route, it's difficult to even figure out who should be implementing the plan on a photo-by-photo basis, much less trust them to be unbiased. Or even to figure out a rational, even vaguely objective measurement system. An interesting concept, but impractical.

    And I still don't see any need for it. For photojournalism, they must already be doing their best to echo reality (and have editors to check up on them).
    For Art, who cares? To echo what cam said above, I like what I like, and don't care how it was modified.

    On the other hand, there was a discussion on another photography forum where someone were objecting to a photo book about Antarctica. It was trying to communicate the message of an environment at extreme risk, and all the photos had a slightly odd (allegedly artificial) contrast that gave them a particularly ominous feel. The discussion revolved around whether it was unethical for the photographer to make subtle manipulations to the contrast to push the book's (possibly overstated) message. Perhaps a measurement of the photos' "reality factor" would come in handy in this case, but how would you rate the reality level of subtle contrast manipulations??? It's impossible to determine the "real" contrast of the image, as the human eye is so adaptable and variable.

    Sorry for the semi-random ramblings...

    Lisa

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    I read a statistic once that left a deep impression on me. It stated that one issue of the New York Times Sunday edition contained more information than a person born in the 18th century would have encountered in their entire lifetime. How much of the information in that newspaper is the "truth"?

    How many billions of images, articles, videos, etc., etc. are this century's people exposed to each day? A lot methinks. Are those various media truthful, unbiased, unaltered? Who can say? And is there really an expectation on the part of most adults that the stuff they see IS honest and perfect? I don't know, I think most folks are pretty skeptical of almost everything.

    While truth and ethics in photography on behalf of the hordes of future "viewers" is admirable, I think that ship sailed a looooooong time ago.

    Besides, it's ALL an illusion. Which, personally, I kind of like.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    While truth and ethics in photography on behalf of the hordes of future "viewers" is admirable, I think that ship sailed a looooooong time ago.

    Besides, it's ALL an illusion. Which, personally, I kind of like.
    Tim,
    This brought to mind one of the bigger, but relatively harmless illusions passed off to the public. That National Geographic cover shot of the pyramids. We all saw and thought it impressive, but most never suspected that NG carefully removed space to tighten the perspective so that it fit the cover format.

    And now, with this new Liquid Sizer tool that is being marketed by OnOne software, things really get scary.....you can actually remove reality in such a way that it is almost not detectable. Makes the work the former KGB guys did to expunge folks from images look rather tame

    I agree with Lisa also....seems like a noble cause, but would be near impossible to implement and enforce. With that being the case, your other points about how much stuff folks are exposed to today sort of means we are becoming our own "filters" and our skepticism goes up. That in turn makes really skilled captures and true efforts for original presentation harder to appreciate, since in the back of our heads we may be thinking "good Photoshop work" before "great photographic capture". Cynicism is not always a good thing

    LJ

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    Senior Member Lisa's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    That in turn makes really skilled captures and true efforts for original presentation harder to appreciate, since in the back of our heads we may be thinking "good Photoshop work" before "great photographic capture". Cynicism is not always a good thing

    LJ
    Actually, I never think *either* "good Photoshop work" or "great photographic capture". I either think, "My, that's an artistic photo where the photographer really managed to communicate the mood", or "What were they thinking?" I guess I look for different things in photos...

    I guess that's why I don't care whether they've been manipulated.

    Lisa

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Well, if the image I am viewing really captures my interest and appreciation, I just naturally wonder how it was done. If it is truly timing, composition, light, subject, etc., I try to learn from it. If it seems manipulated, I also try to learn from it, as some post work has made things works of art, in my mind. So, my comments were really more related to Neil's original questions about authenticity and reality, as well as Tim's comments about not caring whether it was manipulated or not.

    Maybe I am still a "primitive" in some respects, but I did this for years and years looking at paintings in museums all over the world, trying to understand what it was that made the art more captivating to me, so it is hard for me to separate the same sort of appreciative analysis to photography, since I am now trying to create some of that magic with my own work.

    LJ

  31. #31
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Lisa youre point about the Antartica photos is a good one as in this case the oppressive nature of the images would have a more significant effect than normal because of the books subject.There could therefore be no zero rating even for the most basic manipulation.
    As for not caring whether a photo has been changed or not is not my point,Im looking to inform the general public,not image concious photographers,if reality has been twisted or not.
    Last edited by nei1; 3rd May 2008 at 08:09.

  32. #32
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    TRSmith,imagine the anarchist in your world of illusion;now theres a special kind of madness.regards Neil.

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    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Photography had never had any link to reality. It appears to have the characteristic of "indexablity" in Semontics but when you look at the process it doesn't.

    I high suggest any one interested in this issue get and read (several times) Photography Theory edited by James Elkins.

    Nice little review.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


  34. #34
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    All photographs are lies.

    A photograph is not the thing photographed, but something new.

    It is easier to lie with a camera than with a darkroom (or Photoshop).

    That is all. Carry on.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    All photographs are lies.
    Hi Maggie:

    I would probably agree if you edited it to read, "Photographs can be lies."

    For example, when I see your images showing the expressions on the face of the young lady cooking with you in the kitchen, I don't see much in the way of lies

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi Maggie:

    I would probably agree if you edited it to read, "Photographs can be lies."

    For example, when I see your images showing the expressions on the face of the young lady cooking with you in the kitchen, I don't see much in the way of lies

    Cheers,
    Well, the colors aren't exactly as they appeared in life. There's one lie.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Well, the colors aren't exactly as they appeared in life. There's one lie.


    Okay
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    well met

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    All photographs are lies.

    A photograph is not the thing photographed, but something new.

    It is easier to lie with a camera than with a darkroom (or Photoshop).

    That is all. Carry on.
    an example of Maggie's point.



  39. #39
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Cam and Maggie o ,I agree with you both,what im not sure of is if your comments are directed at me or not,if they are then Im sorry for not having explained things better because youve not understood what Im talking about,but youre posts are probably more interesting anyway.Missunderstandings are part of being human,a normal part of life,its where these missunderstandings are used in a corrupt way,deliberatly,that real harm can be done.

  40. #40
    Deceased, but remembered fondly here... johnastovall's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    All photographs are lies.

    A photograph is not the thing photographed, but something new.

    It is easier to lie with a camera than with a darkroom (or Photoshop).

    That is all. Carry on.
    ôPhotography is about finding out what can happen in the frame. When you put four edges around some facts, you change those facts.ö

    Garry Winogrand

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


  41. #41
    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    as Picasso once said "Art is a Lie which shows Truth"

    Toodles, H

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    ôPhotography is about finding out what can happen in the frame. When you put four edges around some facts, you change those facts.ö

    Garry Winogrand
    perfect!

  43. #43
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    "you dont need eyes to see,you need vision" lyric, Faithless.We could all quote other people all day,better to hear from real people whos opinions Ive begun to enjoy.

  44. #44
    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Nei1
    With RE: to quoting QUOTES
    I would have SAID it
    if it hadn't been said first
    and does it really matter where it comes from
    IT MAKES THE POINT (if ya know what I mean)

    all the Best, H

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Last time I looked, Garry Winogrand was a real person, albeit a currently dead one.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by helenhill View Post
    as Picasso once said "Art is a Lie which shows Truth"

    Toodles, H
    "I know now that there is no one thing that is true - it is all true."

    Ernest Hemingway

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    "Bloody hell, it's noon and already I need a drink!"

    -Maggie Osterberg

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie O View Post
    Last time I looked, Garry Winogrand was a real person, albeit a currently dead one.

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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    One maybe has to or should wonder if all/some of these interesting quotes, many taken out of context, are no different than the "four edges around some facts".... They have all been a part of some reality past, not unlike a captured image. Use them as a record, or use them as some (linguistically) artistic statement. What is the difference?

    "Taking a pause for the cause...."

    LJ

  50. #50
    nei1
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    Re: The morals/ehics of photoshop etc, and how can we all be saved from damnation?

    "Next to the originator of a good sentence is the first quoter of it. I hate quotations. Tell me what you know. " Emerson
    The drinks are on me Maggie!

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