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Thread: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    An oh so true and very sad commentary on Apple's current marketing priorities. They can't give us an iPhone you can hold normally in our right hand, and rather tell us we're holding it wrong. They bring out an iPad and dribble it with features 5 generation old macbooks had and painfully slow wifi operation. Now they give us the new Mac Pro we've all been patiently waiting for, and it's a flop before it hits the shelves. The arrogant idiots at Apple need to be fired, starting with Steve. Folks, we're entering another era where PC will reign supreme, and probably for several years at this. I'm starting to contemplate the hassle of converting back to Windows...

    http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/20...essional-line/
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    OK, on the desktop machine point of view, have you priced out and configured something like an HP equivalent?
    That would be a very unwarranted thing to o IMO unless you decide to build a server farm.
    So here is "HP's Power machine" http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/sh...HPE390t_series
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 29th July 2010 at 02:47.

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    OK Jack... so just what is it thats missing from the new Pros that you really really need?

    the article seemed to have been written by someone with a very old mindset and somehow thinks Apple owes him something. The world has changed and the need for the infinitely configureable macho tower has declined. in the big scheme of things the people who require things like SDI and SAS and all that stuff are small and probably getting smaller.

    If the tools Apple offer him dont do the job - then buy the tools that do.

    Apple has changed - they have gone from being within weeks of extinction to being a very highly valued company (15 billion dollars in sales last quarter - about the same as microsoft) with many many more users. Arrogant they may be but idiots they certainly are not.

    I run a 4 year old Mac pro , and probably only keep it on and dont replace it with a iMac because of the multiple drive bays. I have no use for USB3, Blueray seems a technological dead end, my video needs are served without the need for capture cards.

    seriously Jack - sit back and think just what going back to Windows would really bring you


    K

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    It would bring me a i7 quad core notebook with a fast 1gb video card for under $900. That's what has me thinking about going back to a windows notebook. Don't get me wrong, I love my Mac (and iPhone and iPad), but the limited configurations and high prices have me re-thinking my next computer purchase. Windows 7 isn't OSX but it's a big improvement over previous versions of Windows.

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Apple doesn't care about the need for speed anymore.

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    If the tools Apple offer him dont do the job - then buy the tools that do.
    That was pretty much the point of the article IMO. Apple's focus on consumers has left professionals out in the cold, so now they're forced to look at alternatives. It's definitely a deliberate choice on Apple's part, but while it doesn't make them idiots it's certainly a smack in the face of professionals. They shouldn't really tag their products with the 'Pro' mantra if they're not going to support pros. Not everything is wireless or Wi-Fi yet, so the lack of options for those forms of interactivity with the computer are a real limitation whether you believe it or not. I think the article was spot-on, personally.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    An oh so true and very sad commentary on Apple's current marketing priorities. They can't give us an iPhone you can hold normally in our right hand, and rather tell us we're holding it wrong. They bring out an iPad and dribble it with features 5 generation old macbooks had and painfully slow wifi operation. Now they give us the new Mac Pro we've all been patiently waiting for, and it's a flop before it hits the shelves. The arrogant idiots at Apple need to be fired, starting with Steve. Folks, we're entering another era where PC will reign supreme, and probably for several years at this. I'm starting to contemplate the hassle of converting back to Windows...

    http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/20...essional-line/
    Interesting article. I run Mac and Windows side by side and enjoy both. With Windows 7, I no longer feel like Mac OS has an advantage other than better security. Likewise, I think Apple has lost their lead in the mobile phone market, with Android having now caught up. The iPad will face fierce Android competition soon as well.

    As long as Steve is at the helm, Apple products will be the most "polished" products around, but they won't match the raw capability and versatility of the competition, which iterates much more rapidly.

    I can't remember who said this, but Apple has gone from "Think different" to "Hold it different". I still enjoy Apple products, though, and as long as they make Macs, I'll probably continue to use them.

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Agree that the article does hit many sore points of reality that some of us tend to ignore. Fact is Apple is in business to make money, and they have found the way into the consumer hearts, so they are mining that for all the gold they can. But in that process, they do appear to be abandoning the niche users that have been loyal forever, and really helped them get to where they are now. It could not be too hard for Apple to build a more beefy machine, even if in more limited numbers, or at least keep the design such that one could stuff things in as needed. One of the problems that has arisen from the very tightly controlled architecture and software interaction that Apple has always pushed, is that anything slightly off course, or not taken into account in their initial design, makes for impossibilities. And yes, I am agreeing with the writer that Apple has sort of traded some tech innovation and capability for mass market pleasing stuff. It earns them the bucks, and right now, that seems to be their driver, when before, it was easier to dream bigger and do things more out of the mainstream, but really appealing to the creative users they wanted to support. Apple's customer base has changed dramatically over the years, and they are simply responding to the larger demographic for what to build that will sell.

    Just wish Jobs would put some of the huge profits they are making into a seriously dedicated group that does cater just to the small market segment of "Group B" customers, and help keep their leading edge and mystique about how good their stuff is.

    LJ

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    sorry.. I am missing out on this" professional left out in the cold"... just what bits of connectivity have apple left out that are so mainstream and pressing in the Pro world?

    you want RAID - they offer solutions for that

    Fibre channel - got that

    fastest ethernet - got that

    Blue Ray - there are solutions for that

    esata - ditto

    video capture solutions - got that.

    seriously - name me one thing not available for the Mac Pro that is stopping a Pro today from getting on with the job.

    As for the price argument - well as others have pointed out the equivalent Dells and HP's using the fastest processors are the same if not more expensive. A pro buys the best tool for the job, not the cheapest. Its part of the cost of business, just like cameras, your office, your car, your staff.

    Apple are a business - there was a time when the Pro market was more important for them - but the significance of the Pro market in their grander scheme of things is diminishing

    K

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    AFolks, we're entering another era where PC will reign supreme, and probably for several years at this. I'm starting to contemplate the hassle of converting back to Windows..
    Yes, well, enjoy yourself. I use Windows 7, XP and OSX every day. I can tell you I won't be using Windows for a minute more than I need to.

    As for going back to PC - not with the support we get from our local Applestore from people who actually know what they're talking about and are friendly and helpful.

    Replaced kit 2 years out of warranty 'because we were aware there was a problem with the power-supply".

    I'm not excusing the phone debacle (having said that, I put on my free bumper, thought . . . 'that's okay' - two days later I took it off again, I'm not getting any dropped calls) -still, it shouldn't be.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Kevin,
    You are correct that the significance of the Pro market to Apple has been diminishing....more as a percent of its total market than maybe actual numbers, but the impact is the same. I know I waited what seemed like forever for Aperture 3 to come out, with the sorely needed upgrades and stuff. Final Cut Pro is now seeing the same sort of problem. These are very good apps for professional use, but the rate of updating and improvement does not match the timing of the needs. On the hardware side.....yes, all of those things can be added to a newer Mac Pro, but not all at the same time. I have an old G5 that is pretty stuffed, and there are still things that would have been nice to add, but there is no room. I have third party eSATA RAID, and extra video, and extra FW channels, etc. And at that point, you are pretty much starting to max things out, and because of the channel architecture, not everything is able to work at it top design specs. Just the way it is, so one learns to live with it. The new Mac Pro machines are sporting some nice processors, but if one wanted to add in the things that maybe could have been built it from the start, like more FW buses, eSATA ports, and maybe some other exotic things for video and heavy duty use, the capabilities are just not there. Yes, for the majority of heavy users, the Mac Pro will accommodate many, and that is as good as it is going to get. There really is no ability to build things out past a point, like maybe having several RAID5 arrays running at once, along with some of the other things mentioned. Not enough slots, not enough channels, but plenty of horsepower.

    I think that has been a growing issue for many things from Apple lately. I wonder why they dropped that E/C 34 slot on my new 15" MBP. That was very useful on a "pro" machine, I had it on my older one and used it, but now I cannot use it with a faster, better machine in the size that is probably the most useful for many working/traveling "professional" users. And only one FW800 port!!! No eSATA at all. And not even a nod to USB 3.0, when Apple once led that charge for USB and FW as peripheral aids. Behind the curve, no longer in front. That is the bigger complaint. Their tech is good, but nothing on their "pro" side to keep them out front, except maybe the pricing. Still good tools for sure, but the style part of sales has overtaken the design at some expense of the practical/useful part that Macs were always known for. Another example.....cannot buy a new iMac (consumer machine, I know) and stick in your own choice of a SSD drive like the OWC options, nor easily replace the HDD.

    LJ

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    I don't understand your point, Jack. What's not fast enough about recent MacPros and MacBook Pros? Saving a few seconds here and there was never worth upgrading. My rule has been "upgrade when speeds double." We're not there yet, and I don't need more speed yet either. What I need to do is take more and better photos.

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    lj

    fair comments - I suppose i should come clean and confess to being an Apple employee from 2000 until last year - and I was heavily involved in marketing/evangelising the Mac in europe, particularly in the Pro market - I was involved in the launch and promotion of all the pro apps and appeared on stage all across europe demonstrating the latest and greatest of technologies to a largely Pro audience.

    Over the years Apple tended to focus on a few technologies at a time, concentrating on the ones that seemed to offer the maximum benefit to the most customers. Some were Apple led such as Firewire, others like USB were adopted and brought to the mainstream by making them the default connectivity. Often Apple would lead the way in offering things like gigabit ethernet and wifi as a standard.

    I don't know the reasons for not adding support for technologies such as eSATA or USB 3 - maybe they are seen to be not offering any tangible advantages or perhaps they are looking ahead to the next generation of technologies like LightPeak.

    As for things like expresscard slots - well they probably worked out that very few people used it - you are the first I have ever encountered :-).

    With Apple it is about the user experience as opposed to the absolute power, so if by limiting choices and restricting expansion they can more effectively offer a controllable user experience then that is the route they will follow. The original blog article talked of how it was a nightmare trying to keep everything up to date and working with all these extra cards etc... well that maybe why Apple decided not to include those technologies in the first place.

    We have come a long way in the last 10 years and the landscape has changed a lot. When I started it was g3 towers and DV video now i edit HD in realtime on a laptop. Things that were regarded as Pro are now just the the norm. Of course there there will always be the need for Pro machines, but I think the definition of those has changed. I am sure Apple will not abandon the pro arena as long as they see there is a profit in it, but perhaps the need for it as a flagship for their business has diminished

    k

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Kevin,
    All understandable, and I am trying not to sound like a last century dinosaur with the tech part. I also understand Apple's new market segment, and how they are doing quite well there, and for which I am happy. I guess at times it seems like the way I explained to another colleague.....Apple is looking a bit like the guy that abandoned the date that got him to the party in the first place ;-) And to be fair, the new Mac Pros are looking like some very serious machines, but they have given up overall flexibility and expansion capability to cater to the more market limiting and OS needs. From a business perspective, that would be the way to go, but letting the creative and innovative community of power and professional users down a bit by not offering some tech that is used now, and also not offering much of a glimpse to the future is still a bit disheartening. Yes the modern "pro" machines are powerful and capable, but I still had to get a 6-port FW800 hub to plug into my MBP so I could access the plethora of drives with data, where just two more FW800 ports could have made life a lot easier on the road ;-)

    Anyway, not to make more of any of this than that.

    LJ

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Okay, I'm not seriously contemplating moving back to a PC. Yet. But I am pissed at the arrogance of Apple ignoring the top-end market. And by top end, I mean fastest processors, fastest ram AND fastest I/O configurations. This newest Mac Pro still does not utilize DDR3 1600 RAM, USB3, FW1600, SATA3 -- and yes folks, we do have SATA3 drives available, multiple FW bus', or external eSATA ports. IMHO the latest and greatest "pro" level machine should in fact include ALL of those as options.


    /rant
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Not to mention Nvidia options. Maybe there's some truth to this? > http://nofilmschool.com/2010/07/appl...h-new-mac-pros

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Actually I ordered today the old 8 core because that is all I need for now. My current 4 core is fine but I want better graphics GPU. 12 core is not what I need and want to pay for.

    Here is what would have convinced me of the new offerings:

    - Better FW800 (more controllers)
    - e-SATA connectors
    - USB-3 (In the past Apple was leading)
    - Bluray drive
    Last edited by ustein; 29th July 2010 at 13:00.
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Hi Jack,

    After your experience loaning me your Mac to process images in Glacier PODAS, watching me reboot Win 7 multiple times/day rebuilding/verifying the RAID array each time, are you certain you want to think about Windows?

    I literally spend about about 60% of my time maintaining my windows 7 and xp machines, about 40% dealing with actual work. I have not found any monumental difference between Vista and 7 with respect to stability. I still spend time upgrading malware packages and running them, even when the machines are up and running. I like the hardware options of my Lenovo W700, but keeping it running smoothly is not easy, as you have seen. I have 2 Dells running Win 7 that do OK most of the time, but I don't stress them much. The Lenovo with XP needs frequent help. I just trashed a Dell desktop with a RAID array when my kids got onto a gaming site that gave them a virus we could not recover from.

    I have only had the MacBook Pro for a month or so, but it does seem to be more stable. I can't say it's more secure, as the literature is mixed here (distinguishing stability due to a better kernel vs far fewer people targeting the Apples).

    I use both OS every day now and suspect I will get more work done on the Apple.

    Remember Glacier!

    steve

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Quote Originally Posted by scatesmd View Post

    Remember Glacier!

    steve
    Ah yes, the single Win machine in Glacier... How could I forget that one?



    No worries, I am just sort of venting at the continued arrogance of Apple and don't plan to move to Win anytime soon. But Apple isn't going to get any more of my money until they offer a true MacPro upgrade instead of this version which is more like a new Mac semi-pro.
    Jack
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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The arrogant idiots at Apple need to be fired, starting with Steve.
    Well the shareholders have the power to make that happen, but seeing as how the company has performed over the last few years, I'd say the chances are somewhere between 'slim' and 'none.'

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    Re: A good article on the "new" Mac Pros -- and unfortunately, all too accurate...

    I, after buying CS5 realized that my perfectly good computer was not going to handle what CS5 could do, so I looked at everything including the latest Mac Pro. I found I could have a computer built with the i7-860 core and a 1 Gb video card and 8Gb of RAM with another 8 Gb possible, considerably cheaper than a Mac Pro(the system, delivered was $2,500, if you have priced the basic Mac Pro you know that it is another $500 before adding the better hardware) . Windows 7, 64 bits is fast, I like to work with a partitioned system, Linux for internet and Windows for programs, it might sound awkward but it works well for me. Besides CS5 was made for multi-threading, when working with a file even as large as 2Gb the slowest application is about one minute, the reality is most of my files are only 200Mb and there are only a few commands that take as long as 15 seconds, most of the commands are simply instantaneous. Some take a few seconds, I think that Mac has dropped a step in the industry and the PC has been pushed ahead. Joe

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