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Thread: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Some news from Mac Rumors . There is a video interface link at the bottom
    http://www.macrumors.com/2008/06/21/...d-screenshots/
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    O.K., I have to stifle a yawn here..... Honestly, this is looking more like a graphic designer app than a photography app. While simple clean UI is nice, I would rather they put some effort into ACR to get the colors right and the artifacts out when processing files from some of the higher end cameras. Sorry to sound like a complainer here, but Adobe continues to be several steps behind in what they should be offering. Still the most powerful image manipulation tool around, but still too obtuse for speed....especially if the Mac version remains 32-bit for yet another go around. Jeez....Apple was pushing 64-bit before Windows in a real, working OS, so what is taking Adobe so darn long to get things working for probably their larger install base? Sad, sad, sad.

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Agreed. Now that I am on the Mac, I will wait for 5 to get 64 bit processing. I mean what's the point otherwise?
    Jack
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    DougDolde
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Buying it is not mandatory


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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    Buying it is not mandatory

    You are absolutely correct, Doug. The one caveat came when Adobe started to bundle ACR/Bridge/PS. While the logical combo in their line-up, the CS3 version, which contained ACR 4 was required, unless you wanted to forgo all the advancements of ACR 4 and any added updates. That becomes a critical element for lots of folks. And in my cynical thinking, I am waiting for Adobe to eliminate the "reasonably priced" upgrades for anyone but users of the last version. So folks with CS or CS2 would not be able to upgrade to CS4 without the full-fare of CS3 also. And following that premise, folks now using CS3 on a Mac may not be able to get just the upgrade to CS5 without paying for CS4 in some way. I said I was a bit cynical here, but I sure hope I am wrong.

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    What about the notion that they are working to make Lightroom rather than Photoshop the eventual place where you can do everything for photography. In that regard a CS4 interface looking more like one that works for graphical design makes logical sense. In that scenario, the most used Photoshop tasks (for photographers) would be implemented into a Lightroom and in a photographers interface/workflow? I know for all of those using C1 and other programs you will scream but that does seem to be the direction.

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I tend to agree with Terry regarding the future of lightroom. Photoshop is a must have tool for print and web designers as well as photographers. However, it does a lot of things that photographers might not consider "production" oriented. If Adobe can bring Lightroom more into line with the requirements of professional photographers who want production capability over ultra-detailed processing options, then that would make sense to me.

    As far as the cost of updating goes, the entire Creative Suite has evolved into a potent package. Every version is more stable and more powerful than the last. Nothing even comes close and for my money, it's worth every penny.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I'd love to see what Terry mentioned being true, but I'm afraid that Adobe really wants to force us to still use Photoshop for alot of final touches on the images vs. Lightroom. That way they can sell two programs, with Photoshop still being much more expensive.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I agree with Ray on this. Lightroom still lacks the ability to handle plug-ins in order to complete many of the finishing touches one now does in PS. The LR architecture has made that a bit difficult. (Aperture found a way around that by allowing plug-ins, but it does not look like LR has that same flexibility from a programming standpoint. Hope they change that.)

    So, you do have a choice.....get LR and only be able to process things to a certain point before you also have to buy PS to finish the job, or just buy PS to do all the work, but in a much more cumbersome, slower and bloated app. Either way, Adobe wins by selling both apps to the photog, when only PS is really needed, or LR could be used, but remains incomplete. How many folks have only LR and not PS also? Of those folks, how many are wanting to do more advanced image retouching but just cannot?

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I agree with you in today's world but I was speaking about the future. Lightroom 2 is on its way and local adjustments are coming with it. The original post on this thread was about the new CS4 interface and the dicussion was how it was moving to a graphics persons workflow. That isn't here yet either so I think there is more to come as to what Adone has in mind for photographers.


    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I agree with Ray on this. Lightroom still lacks the ability to handle plug-ins in order to complete many of the finishing touches one now does in PS. The LR architecture has made that a bit difficult. (Aperture found a way around that by allowing plug-ins, but it does not look like LR has that same flexibility from a programming standpoint. Hope they change that.)

    So, you do have a choice.....get LR and only be able to process things to a certain point before you also have to buy PS to finish the job, or just buy PS to do all the work, but in a much more cumbersome, slower and bloated app. Either way, Adobe wins by selling both apps to the photog, when only PS is really needed, or LR could be used, but remains incomplete. How many folks have only LR and not PS also? Of those folks, how many are wanting to do more advanced image retouching but just cannot?

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Terry,
    You have more faith than I do in Adobe at this point. The interface on CS4 looks like it will be a bit of a headache for photographers that use the app a lot, and have a lot other tools within it. For graphic design folks, it is less cluttered and stuff, but what was Illustrator and InDesign, the other Adobe apps really for? PS has slowly become the super-app, and in the process, has lost some of its identity, I think. LR may, or may not fix the problems for the photographer by carving things out that are more image process related. Until LR allows layers, handles various gradients, and other stuff that is now done in PS, it will only be a first-step development app, and not a complete workflow tool. Now, if your work does not require the added efforts, it could be a great stand-alone.....after it gets all the things you are mentioning. The local adjustments stuff is nice....I use the Nik tools in both PS and Aperture now and think it is helpful. If LR can manage those, then it might be more complete, but right now it does not, and the new version has not suggested that to change.

    Sorry, I did not want this to get so far off-topic, or sound like a LR bash. We were talking about Adobe, CS4 and what the may or may not mean to the photographer. LR is part of that "solution set" that Adobe has cobbled together, so it gets dragged in. It just seems like Adobe has found a way to charge folks a lot more and still not give them what they need in a single app.....LR lacks the finishing tools, and PS lacks the speed and organizational ability, plus non-destructive editing that LR has. No perfect app yet. The bigger downside or sorts is that all of the OEMs are tweaking their apps to do the things LR is sort of doing now, and then pass files to PS for completion. If the image development/conversion tools in LR and ACR do not improve, that activity is sure to continue and even grow. C1 folks and other go to PS to finish things, not LR, so PS is still a needed tool....but now looking less photographer oriented in this new interface. Just my thoughts on this.

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    If I'm not mistaken, the new interface is an option you can select. If you prefer the existing workspace design, you will still be able to use it in CS4.

    You'll have to forgive me, I'm an unabashed Adobe fan. I've made a very comfortable living using their products and they have done nothing but get better over the years. Digital photography and its requirements are a relative latecomer to the use of Photoshop which has been around for many, many years and has a market that may in fact include more users who aren't using it for photo processing than those that do.

    I don't see anything sinister or greedy in the development of both apps (LR and PS). Together (in my opinion) they represent the pinnacle of current technology. They have both undergone tremendous development in step with the digital photography evolution. In the grand scheme of things, compared to the cost of digital cameras, lenses, ink jet paper, ink, etc., their cost seems like quite a value.

    Which is not to say that having one, perfect, Uber App might not be a good thing. Maybe some day.

    Tim

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I like the look of it.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Tim,
    Not disagreeing with your reasons at all. I too have been using PS for a long time, and admit that there is nothing that does what it can in so many areas. I am all for improvements and stuff, and realize that their user base is not only photographers. I guess I am just not as big a fan of how they have been doing things lately, and charging quite a bit for apps that have not undergone all that much change, just having stuff piled on top. These are big and complex apps, but they need a complete code rewrite to reduce the bloat, take advantage of the hardware upgrades, and offer things in a more inviting way to the user. Maybe this is a step in that direction with CS4. I really do not know. What I do know is that I will probably not upgrade this cycle, as CS4 will not show any improved performance on my Macs, and CS3 is doing much of what I need now. LR has never attracted me, being an Aperture user from its start.

    Anyway, I hope folks find it attractive and use it as they see fit. It just seems that the constant upgrade cycle from Adobe lately has not been offering all that much more, but is costing a lot more. As you say, the UI is an option, so that is good. Just wonder how much is sacrificed for that? More fancy, but still no ability to use more than 3GB RAM on a Mac. Seems like they are really missing something, especially given the increasing size and complexity of graphics files lately, and not just photo images.

    LJ

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    What I do know is that I will probably not upgrade this cycle, as CS4 will not show any improved performance on my Macs, and CS3 is doing much of what I need now.
    Exactly my sentiments However IF CS4 was 64bit for Mac, I'd be all over it.
    Jack
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I guess my history is clouding my vision. All those early versions coupled with wimpy processing from those bygone days left some scars. Crashes, spinning beach balls, poor text handling, etc. By comparison, today's apps are solid performers.

    I don't have the instant recall type of intellect (and I'm too lazy to do the research) but the improvements to stability and versatility alone have been worth the price of admission IMHO.

    As for 64 bit... It's not clear to me that there will be a huge performance gain from that. I'm pretty sure it's not as simple as 2 times faster.

    But I can respect your position. Your needs may be somewhat different from mine. Since the Adobe stuff along with other applications like Quark (hey, you want an example of an arrogant, bloated, behind-the-times software company? Check out Quark XPress!) are my bread and butter, I have made it a policy to automatically upgrade with each new version. In the long run, it has been easier for me.

    Best,
    Tim

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Good point Tim. I'm not sure I need 64 bit to solve my issues, but more likely improved coding with what they already have...

    For example, I have a newer Mac Pro with 8 really fast processors, a lot of RAM and some of the fastest SATA2 drives you can install, and I still have to wait inordinately long times when CS3 goes to scratch! It is clear to me that CS3 scratch times are reading and writing at maybe 30MB/sec when at the worst case my drives are capable of 80 to 100, and in the best case I still have 5 or 6 Gigs of RAM available and shouldn't need to scratch anyway! So what's with that? Clearly there is a coding issue that is not allowing CS3 to take advantage of the throughput available...

    The other point is I have always bought into the upgrades for the added features, because most of them were items I wanted. So if photomerge is improved to the point where it competes with Autopano Pro, and/or the HDR merge tool improves to where it works as well as the third party programs, by all means I'll upgrade too. But just for a new interface that allows me to optionally tab multiple images and hide my Mac desktop a la the Win version, that frankly isn't enough for me to justify a $200 upgrade fee...
    Jack
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    This is exactly my point, Jack. There are some fundamental things that need to be overhauled in the underlying code for these apps that has been very, very slow in coming, while the cosmetic stuff keeps being done and offered as upgraded versions.

    Hey, maybe looking at prettier UI is what is needed while we keep watching the spinning beachball, while the scratch disk is feverishly humming away (but NOT at full throughput, as you note), and so that we can feel like maybe we wasted some money on all that hardware for PS ;-) (Hey, earlier in this thread, I mentioned that I was a bit cynical about this. Just staying true to form.)

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I can certainly understand the desire to take full advantage of the Mac Pro's power. I have one too and have scratched my head a few times wondering why a process is taking so long on a system that's pretty state of the art. So, yeah, faster will be better. The whole carbon to cocoa thing is unfortunate but will someday be nothing more than a tiny postscript in Photoshop history.

    As for $200 for nothing more than a GUI upgrade, I can't imagine it. It might be the only thing the press release discusses, but I will be really surprised if there aren't some deeper/more powerful enhancements.

    But like I said, I've been drinking the Kool Aid for a long time.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    As for $200 for nothing more than a GUI upgrade, I can't imagine it. It might be the only thing the press release discusses, but I will be really surprised if there aren't some deeper/more powerful enhancements.
    I hope you're right, and if so I'll upgrade. I drank the Kool-Aid for a long time too, but couldn't stomach it after the Macromedia merger. Now I'm more of a "show me" kind of guy
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    For those who missed this, it may fill-in some gaps:

    http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/04...hop_lr_64.html

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Dale,
    That is a good post, and has been talked about for a while. I think the point remains....as PS is written today with its obtuse code and slow callings, it cannot and will not work appreciably better on 64-bit addressing machines. The code needs the overhaul to take advantage of multi-processor, multi-thread, wider RAM bandwidth, etc., offerings that the newer machines have.

    LR will get some boost, and that is great. But LR is NOT PS. It still lacks a lot of finish work capabilities, so PS is still required by a lot of folks.

    In the end, until Adobe bites the bullet and starts a serious recoding and streamlining of the apps (which it is doing for some things, or so they are telling us), faster machines are not going to matter much when running the app. So while some new UI or a few improvements to some tools is very welcomed, as Jack mentions, it still falls short of what most users are really needing and wanting.

    The entire application architecture needs to be revamped, not just added to as it has been for years. Even Apple has recognized this as they start on their new OS X "Snow Leopard".....it will be slimmed down for faster and more efficient operation. They are doing the same with apps like Aperture and Final Cut. Why can't Adobe think about this approach and get cracking? They have lots of very capable and skilled programmers that surely understand that. The overarching plan and design for the future is what seems to be lacking.

    LJ

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    LJ,

    I agree with you. Bloat is the bane of all applications, as are kludges using legacy code in lieu of re-writes. Adobe is large enough that they should have a dedicated team working on a ground-up replacement which does not involve these incremental "patches".

    I don't use LR and don't care for Aperture, so of course I'm wishing they would do something great with PS/ACR/Bridge. I like the tools in Bridge and the ACR process, but modern image files really tax the current versions of Adobe software. Perhaps LR 2.0 will win me over, or at least convince me to adapt to the LR approach. Frankly, I'm most comfortable in PS, but large, layered files prepped for my printers at 600ppi (Canon ImagePROGRAFs) are hugh and take a long time to save, export to a print plug-in, etc. I can stay off the scratch disk most of the time, but it still grinds slowly at times.

    I acknowledge that I need to upgrade my hardware, but some of the sluggishness is due to other limitations in the app.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I agree. I am just so shocked that they are not making it 64bit. It's not like they haven't had time to do it. Apple went 64bit in 2003! High end servers and workstations were long before that, so it was obvious that it was coming to personal computers. Now the fact that practically every computer system sold in the world ships with a 100% compatible 64bit operating system, you would think that they might decide to get around to adding support for it. 4GB is not a lot of RAM when you are working with MF scans or 12-40 MP files.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Stuart:

    In fairness to Adobe, Apple swapped from Carbon-64 to Cocoa for Leopard. This created a stall (supposedly) for Adobe. AFAIK the issue is Adobe claims that Apple swapped platforms, but Adobe still built LightRoom on Cocoa, so why couldn't Adobe step up and build CS4 on Cocoa instead of Carbon? In the end, the companies are pointing their fingers at each other, but it does kind of look a convenient excuse for Adobe to defer 64bit architecture for CS-Mac until the next revision.

    However you slice it, most Mac users call it a STUPID move by Adobe to not create a full 64-bit Leopard version of CS, especially given the huge migration of imagists from Win to Mac since Vista.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    So, Vista is getting a 64 bit version, but not OSX? That's like rubbing salt in the wound. They're probably still pissed about aperture...

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    There are massive scale economies in delivering pretty software and semi 'forced' upgrades. Marketing hype is a far bigger driver in this equation - when combined with the coercive practise of forcing upgrades one way or another.

    the second best way to hedge out the cost of this upgrade cycle is to own some Adobe shares.

    The best way is to opt out. It is really interesting for me to note that personally the only new features in CS3 that I think were worthwhile from a photographic point of view was the much improved stitching.

    I am very happy with Phocus as my blad raw machine and file prep. I am switching from Canon to Epson over the next few months and there are very good rips available for printing here. Aperture is a nice 'potential' web display and book/album display prep engine - still surprisingly slow - however at least it shows Hasselblad files.

    NO third party raw processor does as good a job as the stuff that comes from teh back manufacturers - despite their clunkiness.

    I am NOT a fan of Lightroom - because it just reminds me that it is a dumbed down basic photoshop from 10 years ago - with the database engine that Photoshop SHOULD have - WHY they need to separate the programs is obvious - because they can.

    I guess what I am saying is that in order to remove the constant upgrade and relearn new interface cycle - I am dumbing down my approach to:

    1. Raw processing via MFD back software
    2. Export via Tiff straight to print OR
    3. Use CS3 for any layer work and finessing (how much of this is just a poor copture in the first place?? ) LOL
    4. A DAM strategy that involves Lightroom OR Aperture as my database. ( hence my interest in Aperture because it does deliver the promise of a one stop shop. IF they added layers to their capability it woudl make the program MUCH more powerful) I cant be bothered with getting my mind around all the fancy ways these progs apparently dont change raw file and just code change your changes - who can remember what six months later

    Am so tired of geekdom..so very tired of fancy this and fancy that - I wish Photoshop didnt have 10 ways to do anything - it is way past the point of BLOATWARE.

    What a pity there isnt an alternative that delivers teh basic tools in elegant stable fashion. HEY!!! maybe that is photoshp's next program?? LOL

    Pete

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    It's difficult to opt out of photoshop. It is really the only way that I am aware to produce exhibition quality prints at home (using a printer anyway). I have not seen anything else that can equal its combination of sophisticated adjustment layers, sharpening algorithms and color-managed printing software. I would love to hear about other things, but at the same time, I frankly don't feel like learning how to use another damn program, so I certainly agree with you there Peter.

    I learned photoshop elements
    then I learned photoshop 7.0
    then I learned minolta's scan software
    then I learned CS2
    then I learned Monaco EZcolor
    Then I learned FlexColor
    Then I learned Capture One
    then I learned CS3
    Then I learned Eizo ColorNavigator
    Then I learned Lightroom
    Then I learned LeafCapture
    Then I learned CaptureShop
    Then I learned CaptureNX

    It an endless parade of bloatish hell. Note, I do not own all these, but between testing cameras, owning different things and assisting, I have had to compile a working knowledge of how to use all this crap. I just wish that they could be more consolidated.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    I wish each maker would supply their raw processing algorithms as a plug in to photoshop and I wish photoshop had the database included ( Lightroom). Yep I agree Stuart - too much geek software in my life over the last few yers - I am so over it all.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Well for me, I structured my image database long before interactive cataloging software was even a pipe dream. And at least the C1 4.1.1 workflow is reasonably similar to LR/ACR workflow -- close enough to get the hang of it pretty quick anyway. So I never adopted LR's cataloging and can let go of it pretty easily. Gets me back to C1 or ACR for raw and CS3 for localized image adjustments. Not too shabby a situation for this old dog
    Jack
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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Well for me LR seems to be very short lived. When i switch hard drives here pretty soon I may just take LR off my machines. Less is more. My issue with LR as it always has been is red and with every camera Leica , Nikon and now the Phase backs Red. Besides that ACR and LR are just ugly and underexposed with my Phase files and the kelvin temps are off. i do a lot just by kelvin temp. so it just is not working. Some more improvements with C1 and I will be happy but it was always a great program for almost any camera i shot with regards to the output , always very clean. Functionality is the needed improvements. Once again i am looking at a huge shooting gig in a couple weeks that i will shoot maybe 2k in images and again i will need speed and need it fast , so we will see how that goes. This time though i will make a custom WB so i won't have to play around with that for all the shooting it will be the same stage and lighting per say.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    As for 64 bit... It's not clear to me that there will be a huge performance gain from that. I'm pretty sure it's not as simple as 2 times faster.


    Best,
    Tim
    Tim:

    If you get a chance, try the Lightroom Beta in 64bit. It seems to be much quicker at things like importing images and rendering the previews.

    Robert

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    Re: Adobe Photoshop CS4 Interface and Screenshots

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Tim:

    If you get a chance, try the Lightroom Beta in 64bit. It seems to be much quicker at things like importing images and rendering the previews.

    Robert
    Thanks for reminding me of that Robert. I've been using the 2.0 Beta since it was released. I've become used to it since then, but I do remember my initial reaction was that it felt speedier. So I admit that faster would be better in PS.

    Speed gains are somewhat elusive however, at least for me. For example, technical specifications for the next and newest processors etc. can sometimes give one the impression that processing times will be markedly different once you buy the latest model of computer containing them. My own experience is that those speed enhancements become "absorbed" pretty quickly. In fact in many cases, you don't realize the improvement until you try and work on an older, slower system. Generation to generation, the differences are often noticeable, but not a match for the marketing hype.

    Which is not to say that I wouldn't appreciate a faster rendering of something like "smart sharpen" in the next PS release. But my own work does not require the batch processing of hundreds of enormous images. In fact, I work on one at a time. The speed enhancements will come and they will be welcome, but I'm not holding my breath or popping my cork until they do.

    Tim

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