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Thread: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Well let's face it as a commercial shooter you sold out to make money to eat. But there still is the artist side also but depends on what you do with it. Honestly there is stuff I shoot that if I had enough money and did not need the work . I would not even bother shooting it and I think many commercial shooters would agree. But how far you take the other side of your art maybe defines you better.
    Shooters like myself run two sides of the coin one as a artist and one as a business. Sometimes they merge and sometimes there worlds apart
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Player View Post
    I can't help thinking that striving for fame is exactly the same as striving for money. I think an honest artist just has to make his/ her art and not worry about the public at all, let the chips fall where they may. Once you start trying to tailor your work to fit with an audience, you've sold out, and you've become untrue to yourself. That's what's happening on top 40 radio.
    HI There

    If you change your art to find a public, then I'd agree that you've 'sold out' . . . . . but if nobody sees it, there's no point in doing it, and so you need to be able to persuade the public to look at it one way or another.

    In principle you may be right, but, having grown up in StIves, where there is a big arts community, and having seen the way it goes, the real truth is that if you wait for the chips to fall, then they won't, you will neither be seen nor sold. Perhaps this is more honest, but it seems to me that if you are trying to communicate your art, then it MUST be seen (no good sitting against the wall in the studio).

    Possibly you will become known after your death . . . . but if so, it'll be because somebody else does your sales work for you.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well let's face it as a commercial shooter you sold out to make money to eat. But there still is the artist side also but depends on what you do with it. Honestly there is stuff I shoot that if I had enough money and did not need the work . I would not even bother shooting it and I think many commercial shooters would agree. But how far you take the other side of your art maybe defines you better.
    Shooters like myself run two sides of the coin one as a artist and one as a business. Sometimes they merge and sometimes there worlds apart
    Surely we need to make a distinction between 'commision' and 'speculative' work.
    As a professional photographer, most of the work you do is because someone asked you to do it, and told you they'd pay for it. Plenty of commercial painters who do the same thing as well.

    Making images and then trying to find a seller is quite a different game (the only similarity is that you've got to be a businessman (or have a good agent) if they're going to sell).

    Just this guy you know

  4. #54
    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Joan
    This is an interesting point, but in this case it isn't JUST about being good at selling yourself

    I reckon that lots of these 'artists' you've seen are getting by BECAUSE they re-hash old work.

    The public really needs to be able to get a handle on a photographer/painter to remember their name, which will in turn make them more famous.

    Think of all the famous photographers (in particular), they all seem to have a particular (and often limited) milieu in which they work, I can't think of many who do diverse work and are also famous, and the one or two I CAN think of are consummate performers (David Bailey springs to mind).

    The 'public' is a simple beast, and if you do a gritty black and white urban scene one day and a landscape the next, nobody is going to remember you, however good you are! Bang on with the same old same old, and in the end you're going to get noticed.
    Ah, Jono ... you are right. Financial success does seem to come to those who limit themselves to a particular genre and then PUSH, PUSH, PUSH to get their names out there. However, there IS a difference between someone who has focus and dedication to a particular area of interest and those who just find a formula and never again try to challenge themselves to go any further.

    The best advice from teachers I've had is to work in a series at least until you have resolved whatever it is you're trying to say, or whatever technical skill you're trying to acquire. Repetition can be a good thing, but once you just hang there and never venture past that point, you might as well go sell cars for a living because you are no longer an artist IMHO.

    EDIT: Oops, looks like we were typing all at the same time here. I think we all have to eat, and ther's no shame in doing what it takes to put food on the table, just as Guy said ... there's his pro paid work and there's his own artistic work. Nothing wrong with that at ALL!
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Hello Jono, I don't think we disagree on the most part, except I don't think that there are any guarantees when you try to create honest art. Yes, art is communication, but you can't force people or slant your work towards the fads or whims of the day just to communicate with an audience. Maybe the public isn't ready for your art, similar to what happened with Van Gogh. If Van Gogh tried to pander to the public of his time would we have the great art that exists today, from Van Gogh, to be enjoyed for eternity? And was there a better salesman of art than Theo Van Gogh?

    If you're trying to make a living at art, or communicate for the sake of communicating, that's a different thing altogether, that's more akin to business, putting a product out there that the public will consume.

    And I don't entirely agree that if "nobody sees it, there's no point in doing it." For most artists, the joy of creating has its inner spiritual rewards before anyone sees it. Also, if that was the case, should Vincent Van Gogh have never created his art considering the total public disregard while he was alive?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Well I am still a firm believer in pushing yourself no matter if the public wants it or not. One must feed the soul come hell or high water. If they happen to like it great but keep doing it even if they don't. Got to satisfy your heart, otherwise myself i would just be a production shooter and not be here. LOL

    This forum and the workshops help feed my soul a lot.

    Guess we are a little OT . But please continue this is GREAT stuff and never want to see us stop great stuff EVER
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Player View Post
    If you're trying to make a living at art, or communicate for the sake of communicating, that's a different thing altogether, that's more akin to business, putting a product out there that the public will consume.
    Well, I don't really agree with this - if you're art is so important to you, you'll want to spend all your time doing it, and the best way to do this is to get someone to pay you for doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Player View Post
    And I don't entirely agree that if "nobody sees it, there's no point in doing it." For most artists, the joy of creating has its inner spiritual rewards before anyone sees it.
    Yes, well, I don't entirely agree either - truth be told it's what I do myself, the vast majority of the work I do remains unseen. I made a strategic decision not to become a professional photographer because it would force me to direct my efforts towards what others wanted. I do some commercial work, partly for tax reasons, but mainly because it continues to reinforce the idea that it isn't what I want to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Player View Post
    Also, if that was the case, should Vincent Van Gogh have never created his art considering the total public disregard while he was alive?
    No - it's just that it would have been better for Vincent Van Gogh had be been a bit more accomplished as a salesman. There are plenty of examples of fine artists who don't have to starve in a garrett . . . . Picasso springs to mind, but there are many many more.

    Van Gogh came to public attention because OTHERS were businessmen - and there's nothing 'dirty' in that.

    Just this guy you know

  8. #58
    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Guy, the fact that you love to teach others is in itself a GREAT thing! It speaks volumes that you are willing to share your gift and are happy when others "get it" a little bit. Too often those with talent and ability are unwilling to let their "secrets" out for fear that someone else might surpass them. You have a great big heart and that is undoubtedly why you are also very good at what you do!
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Joan View Post
    Guy, the fact that you love to teach others is in itself a GREAT thing! It speaks volumes that you are willing to share your gift and are happy when others "get it" a little bit. Too often those with talent and ability are unwilling to let their "secrets" out for fear that someone else might surpass them. You have a great big heart and that is undoubtedly why you are also very good at what you do!
    Thank You Joan that meant a lot to me. Honestly I get more out of teaching this stuff than shooting it sometimes. I really am a wanna be teacher from when I was a kid. That never happened but I am so glad i have something to share and give back so that old dream is realized. You MADE my day.

    What I do enjoy most though is having Jack as my workshop partner, forum owner and best friend.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thank You Joan that meant a lot to me. Honestly I get more out of teaching this stuff than shooting it sometimes. I really am a wanna be teacher from when I was a kid. That never happened but I am so glad i have something to share and give back so that old dream is realized. You MADE my day.
    Only speakin' the truth Guy. And I am with you in spirit. I've wanted to teach since I was a child, too. I never got the degree and credentials to do it, but still hope that someday I can find a venue where I can show people the joy of splashing around with watercolors on a big piece of white paper!
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Jono, I respect your opinion, but I can see that we fundamentally disagree. And no need for me to rehash what I already said.

    Just to add about Van Gogh, I believe that Vincent's brother, Theo, was an art dealer who had no luck selling Vincent's paintings. Vincent's work wasn't recognized until enough time had elapsed for it to be appreciated. I think Vincent was ahead of his time, very common among great artists.

    And no, there's nothing wrong with someone trying to sell an artist's work, which is much different than the artist himself slanting his art to pander to an audience.

  12. #62
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Joan you need to find a avenue that you can do that. It does complete you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Thumbs up Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I am still a firm believer in pushing yourself no matter if the public wants it or not. One must feed the soul come hell or high water. If they happen to like it great but keep doing it even if they don't. Got to satisfy your heart, otherwise myself i would just be a production shooter and not be here. LOL

    This forum and the workshops help feed my soul a lot.

    Guess we are a little OT . But please continue this is GREAT stuff and never want to see us stop great stuff EVER
    Guy, I always wanted to tell you that the kindness and good spirit shown on your site is a direct reflection of you and Jack. We've all experienced websites that are hostile and downright rude, mostly because the operators don't care. You've tried to create a friendly, productive, and generous environment here that is a direct reflection of you. And you work to maintain that atmosphere by generously giving your time and sharing your wisdom. I can count on one hand the number of sites that even approach those ideals.

    It's pretty amazing because sometimes the issues discussed are very sensitive, and the easy road to take is to fly off the handle and hurl personal insults, but the fact that everyone knows that that behavior will not be tolerated, order is maintained, but the operator has to sincerely care, and your caring is contagious.

    Since Joan expressed her appreciation, I felt it was appropriate to express mine. Thankyou!

  14. #64
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Thank you. Jack and I plus our moderators work hard to bring that kind of forum to you all, the big difference is we are here all the time to try and make it better everyday. We have had our bumps along the way but we try hard and the folks that are here and posting seem to be happy here and made it there home. But the bottom line it is about the forum members and what they want out of this place. I know some folks are sensitive to certain things and you don't always know what they are and with 1000 members you just don't know how they will take things. I know some of us including myself more than anyone say the wrong thing sometimes. Folks just need to know when to ignore some things also and that is the hard part. No one says the right things all the time and folks are free to express themselves as they should but sometimes you just can't take every comment serious or misread it also. I have been on many forums and been hurled bricks at me, sometimes you lose it and sometimes you just need ignore it but folks that take there ball and go play somewhere else makes no sense to me. There just hurting themselves.

    As our friend Marc says:
    Horses for courses
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Just to add, I know I'm on probation here, having recently appeared here regularly, and now all-of-a-sudden posting frequently, but even so, I still feel welcome even though I haven't "paid my dues." I appreciate everyone tolerating my sometimes abrasive and egocentric communication style, and not just dismissing me out-of-hand.

    Guy, I've had a lot of trouble at other websites because I seem to come off as arrogant and opinionated, and most sites would have been trying to drive me away by now, but it seems I'm being tolerated and given a chance, so I'm grateful. I'd love to have a website I could come to and feel welcome, despite my flaws.

    Just an addendum to the post above, and probably unnecessay.

  16. #66
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Well no one is on probation and everyone is very welcome here posting or not and new or old on the forum. Being opinionated is great actually so never worry about that, I have a ton of opinions myself . LOL

    The only real key here is respect each other but the biggest joy is making friends here. Other than that have fun and I say that for everyone.

    Okay let's get back to our topic at hand . This thread has gone in many directions but let's not stop. Threads like this are golden
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Thanks guy! I think I've always been respectful at every site, but just my opinions have been enough to sink my ship. lol

    And yes, back to the regularly scheduled programming. Thanks!

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Player View Post
    Jono, I respect your opinion, but I can see that we fundamentally disagree. And no need for me to rehash what I already said.

    Just to add about Van Gogh, I believe that Vincent's brother, Theo, was an art dealer who had no luck selling Vincent's paintings. Vincent's work wasn't recognized until enough time had elapsed for it to be appreciated. I think Vincent was ahead of his time, very common among great artists.

    And no, there's nothing wrong with someone trying to sell an artist's work, which is much different than the artist himself slanting his art to pander to an audience.
    I'm not sure we disagree that much.
    I think there are so many different situations that it's tough to draw generalised conclusions.
    As far as slanting work to pander to an audience, a considerable part of any art is about communication (although, as we both agree, this isn't always the case). However, if one's art is so left field that nobody likes it enough to participate, then communication becomes difficult!

    We are not all Van Gogh's, and we will not all be discovered and appreciated after our deaths, and possibly it's better consider that when deciding how 'difficult' one chooses to be.

    But I wasn't really talking about slanting the 'art', but about slanting one's presentation and tactics to maximise exposure, and I think that's completely valid.

    After all, starving to death in a garret does NOT add to the value of our art (although it may be a very useful sales asset to the dealer who makes a fortune out of it later!)

    Just this guy you know

  19. #69
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LOL i agree my issue is there is never a flip side of the coin. It's his way or the highway and if you understand that than fine. But he is not giving his readers that option and to me that is short changing them. But i agree read with a grain of salt
    Hmmm. I think you have a "my way or the highway" attitude as well.

    The reason I mentioned Rockwell's discussion of raw and jpg is that this thread that you started has no such discussion.

    I also mentioned a url that has a response to Rockwell. Also, far more information than has been presented in this thread so far.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm not sure we disagree that much.
    I think there are so many different situations that it's tough to draw generalised conclusions.
    As far as slanting work to pander to an audience, a considerable part of any art is about communication (although, as we both agree, this isn't always the case). However, if one's art is so left field that nobody likes it enough to participate, then communication becomes difficult!

    We are not all Van Gogh's, and we will not all be discovered and appreciated after our deaths, and possibly it's better consider that when deciding how 'difficult' one chooses to be.

    But I wasn't really talking about slanting the 'art', but about slanting one's presentation and tactics to maximise exposure, and I think that's completely valid.

    After all, starving to death in a garret does NOT add to the value of our art (although it may be a very useful sales asset to the dealer who makes a fortune out of it later!)
    You know Jono, I was thinking about what you said, and it seems to be more or less a semantical disagreement more than anything, so I regretted saying that we fundamentally disagree. Not really at all.

    I see your point about slanting one's "presentation and tactics" and not meaning slanting the art itself. This is what marketers do, and if an artist wants exposure he needs a marketer. Chances are that most artists aren't up to the task themselves.

    One area where we may part ways is that I always like to say "that of course artists have to eat, but what does that have to do with art"? I don't agree with putting the onus on art to provide food and sustenance. If it does put food on the table and a roof over your head, then that's a tremendous gift and a bonus, but it should never be the responsibilty of one's art to provide that. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but either way it's a separate issue, apart from art.
    Last edited by Player; 29th June 2008 at 10:39.

  21. #71
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Yanal View Post
    Hmmm. I think you have a "my way or the highway" attitude as well.

    The reason I mentioned Rockwell's discussion of raw and jpg is that this thread that you started has no such discussion.

    I also mentioned a url that has a response to Rockwell. Also, far more information than has been presented in this thread so far.
    Bob, I think it's because it's pretty much understood by everyone that to get the most out of one's photography, from a technical standpoint, you must shoot RAW. And Rockwell understands that, even though he never really lets on to his readers, except subtlely, by saying things like "if you have to ask, just shoot jpeg."

    Rockwell is providing a useful function by bringing would-be photographers into the fold, and by not scaring them off with the expense and complexity of shooting RAW. His attitude is that if you need to shoot RAW, you know who you are. He's basically handholding the uninitiated and encouraging them to not give up by just keeping things as simple as possible. He knows that if his readers stick with it, they'll eventually find their way to RAW, and have the confidence to pursue it after having been successful with jpegs.

    What more is there to say about Rockwell?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Yanal View Post
    Hmmm. I think you have a "my way or the highway" attitude as well.

    The reason I mentioned Rockwell's discussion of raw and jpg is that this thread that you started has no such discussion.

    I also mentioned a url that has a response to Rockwell. Also, far more information than has been presented in this thread so far.
    Bob looks like the thread changed early on and it really did not get discussed in detail.

    Bob the my way or the highway is something I don't understand at all since i never even talked about it in the first place, I let the members talk about it. So please tell me how that relates to me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bob looks like the thread changed early on and it really did not get discussed in detail.

    Bob the my way or the highway is something I don't understand at all since i never even talked about it in the first place, I let the members talk about it. So please tell me how that relates to me.
    See that Guy, you can get into conflicts even when you didn't say anything wrong. lol Forums are tricky I tell ya.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Just so you know this was my first post.


    This came up in the small sensor forum and instead of telling folks Raw is better . I think we should explain the benefits of raw first and why overall it is better to start there than shooting jpeg only. I'm actually surprised this topic has not been talked about. I know in the past this was one of the bigger hot topics on forums and many debates over this. I think for folks new into digital we should revisit this. I talk too much so i give this a forum member challenge.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    to me all this is relevant because: raw vs. jpeg is really a question about quality, the kind of polish (or lack thereof) for a particular kind of work.

    work that requires high technical results would probably benefit from raw.

    but, for example, photojournalists tend to shoot jpegs cause they have to produce fast and the files (small) e-mailed.

    wedding photographers would naturally shoot raw.

    however, the comment 'my professional friend's jpegs are better than my raw' really hits home. in many kinds of work and art roughness becomes a virtue, or perhaps a desire, to defeat and avoid slickness.

    ah, money, money, money. i hate to be a naysayer. shakespeare worked for money. he kept changing his kind of stories to please the public and the queen/king and their changing tastes. (james I liked ghost stories so shakespeare wrote hamlet and macbeth). he retired at 51 and didn't even collect his plays. the first folio put together by friends after his death.

    van gogh's career lasted ten years. picasso poor during the first ten of his and then he hit it big. van gogh became a big influence and name not long after his death. poverty did get him, yet it was probably the lead in the paint he licked off his brushes that drove him to despair.

    as for encouraging the talented to be artists, a therapist friend says people generally much happier in the mainstream. supporting play and creativity is one thing. being a pro is another. unless a person really has the gifts to compete in the marketplace and the necessary craft skills, it's better, i think to have it be a hobby and an appreciation.

    in my experience: artists generally take a vow of monastic poverty and find a way to make a living outside art, something that leaves them free from the market.

    on the other hand, shakespeare had the popular touch and i'm sure loved buying his family a coat of arms!

    so, raw or jpeg, do you like to cook or have your food cooked for you? and if the latter, you can always season it to your taste.

    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

    ps. a history of shakespeare and making a living: http://www.amazon.com/Shakespeare-Lo...4792711&sr=1-2
    Last edited by smokysun; 29th June 2008 at 19:12.

  26. #76
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Nice post Wayne, very thoughtful.

    Rockwell says, "if you're shooting thousands of images a day, shoot jpeg." Read between the lines.

    I don't think it's a question of whether or not you should shoot jpegs, but more a question of "can you shoot RAW."

  27. #77
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    The big differences when working with in camera jpegs are several. First you are relying on the OEM's firmware and algorithms to make a judgement call on how a file should be processed with Sharpness, color gamut , color space, contrast, noise,compression etc etc. Now be it right, wrong or indifferent with what they are doing you are basically stuck with what they provide. Some do a better job at this than others. Some of the bigger issues is it is 8 bit and not 12,14 or 16 which shooting Raw provides. So right off the bat you are losing color bit. Think of it as using a box of crayons with only 32 colors instead of one that has a 128 colors. Than you most likely will be shooting SRGB and not a wider gamut of color. So coming out of the camera the files is handicapped right from the start. Shooting raw none of these are a issue and your at a state of nothing being applied to the file. Basically you have all the raw food to make a nice chicken noodle soup sitting on the table , than you add all the ingredients to make it homemade. Also you are starting with a 12,14 or 16 bit file depending on what the OEM is providing to that camera, than you are working in a much larger color gamut , your box of crayon colors is much bigger. Than you have much more control of the files since it is not limited by these factors. Than you add you options like sharpness, color tweaking and WB , contrast control such as holding back the highlights so they will not blow than opening up the shadows to show more detail. Basically you have so much control over the raw file that you can do a lot more for it. In camera jpegs files basically stick you with something right out of the camera you can't really add to. You can change only a small number of things but it will never be a wide gamut color file and will never have the color depth and also the ability to really control the file .

    Now some thing in camera you can do is turn off let's say sharpness. Well if you think about it what would be the point you than would have to add it later, well that is what your doing with raw so why bother in certain ways to even shoot like this.

    Now some folks have to shoot jpegs they simply have no choice because of time limits and such but they should be taken the time to setting up there camera correctly with regards to WB and such. This way at least they can get really close to a good looking file to FTP over the internet to the editors and such. Here is the real issue if you only shoot jpeg than you simply can't go back and make the file even better. For folks that want to shoot jpeg and have the time later than shoot both and buy a camera that gives you that option. This way if you just want to e-mail or post to the web quickly you can and than when time allows or after editing you want to work on the file you can.

    Now I shoot raw only but after I process all my raws than i run a action in photoshop after i done all the corrections i want and such i will convert to 8 bit, srgb and make jpegs for a client for the web and e-mail reasons and provide both a jpeg and a master Tif file that is ready for press for magazines or whatever the need maybe. But now my jpegs are corrected and worked on and they have the benefit of being corrected by me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Awesome Guy, I never could have explained it that well and that thorough. That's a textbook explanation, worthy of printing-out and filing away for future reference.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Thanks i maybe off on a few small details but hopefully that helps explain it better , Only on my first espresso. Now just a small case in point . I own a MF back and system and I am pretty sure there is not one back from the OEM's that even provide a in camera jpeg. Now that says something but actually most of us would not mind it to have small files to upload to a art director as we shoot sometimes if they are somewhere else. No question jpeg has a place in photography and all of us use them to some degree but here simply is no substitute to a raw file to get the best you can out of the file and on top of that some raw processors handle the files better than others. The key here is just knowing your options, not everyone wants to be at this level of control and honestly some in camera jpegs look great no question but you immediately lose all that control if you do not have a raw file. That is something that folks need to understand. There is a big downside and that never gets explained.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Guy, as you said "not everyone wants to be at this level of control" reminds me of the film days. How many photographers just brought their film to the local 1-hour Photo and went happily on their way. On the other hand, myself included, some folks went through the trouble of building their own darkrooms and processing themselves. It's true that many pro photographers had labs process and print for them, but these were usually custom pro labs, under the strict direction of the photographer, so it's always been about quality and control for the serious photographer.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Just to add, the serious photographers who shot transparencies were sort of like todays serious photographers shooting jpegs out of necessity, like photojouralists shooting jpegs. The beauty of modern photography is that you can shoot RAW and still have a jpeg to go along with it. It's sort of like shooting negatives and tranparencies at once.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Player View Post
    Guy, as you said "not everyone wants to be at this level of control" reminds me of the film days. How many photographers just brought their film to the local 1-hour Photo and went happily on their way. On the other hand, myself included, some folks went through the trouble of building their own darkrooms and processing themselves. It's true that many pro photographers had labs process and print for them, but these were usually custom pro labs, under the strict direction of the photographer, so it's always been about quality and control for the serious photographer.
    Well I can't begin to tell you how many jobs got screwed up from even the Pro labs. Reason many folks did there own processing. It honestly has not changed that much in a way.

    Now most of what I mentioned is just simple facts and not based on my opinion which I try not to impose on anyone. I like to present what I know and let folks decide which way to go. Not everyone cares to shoot raw and that i understand but as most folks get more involved into Photography they start to learn more , get more involved and will work towards shooting raw. To me that is a natural progression in growing as a shooter. Again folks my opinion now is take your time and think and understand about what results you want and how much work you want to do. Frankly i spend a lot of time doing my thing with my files. But many don't want to be behind a keyboard longer than they have too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    very, very nice explanation, guy. and your last point probably hits the nail on the head. as more and more time has to be spent on the keyboard at work, fewer people want to get home and turn on the computer again. an example, a lawyer friend simply did not want to write any more after writing all day at the office.

    the paucity of small cameras with raw is part of the problem. i've the d-lux 2 and i can't think of any other camera pocket-size. (other than newer and panasonic versions of the same.)

    a bit up in size: the g3 will take 1200 raw on a 4 meg card (no jpegs). what i would recommend is shooting the raws and then if you like, set up one in lightroom and batch convert the rest.

    again, it depends on how much time you want to spend on the computer as opposed to time spent shooting. most of us, i suspect, have to do it within a limited time-frame.

    maybe you could suggest some speedy ways people could get the most from their raw files. i'm certainly not against having them.

    wayne
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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    The one thing i do recommend so you really never get caught wanting to have a raw is really shoot both until you decide. Reason being say you shot 300 shots and there are a couple that you really want to print or work on more than through your editing and finding those keepers. This reduces computer time than process all 300 and you still get those keepers as raws. Flash cards and hard drives are so cheap now that it really is not a issue as it was to hold them. So for the time being or even always try doing both for awhile and see what benefits you can draw from that.

    Raw processing takes some time to explain and kind of hard to do in the written form. But if you want to start a thread on that great and I will try some of the basic get you going fast stuff. Got to run to a shoot but we certainly can work on that this week.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Hi Guy - and Wayne
    What's all this stuff about 'converting' and 'batch converting'.
    Why do you need to?
    As long as you use one of the modern DAM programs (lightroom or aperture, or even iphoto) you only need to do conversions when sending files to clients, otherwise I don't believe there is any more work involved in shooting RAW than in shooting jpg. As for shooting both - that just muddies the water and gets confusing.

    simply speaking
    1. shoot raw files
    2. copy to a folder on your computer or drive
    3. import to Lightroom or Aperture (leaving files in current position).
    4. make any adjustments within the program
    5. keyword, catalogue files etc.
    6. print if desired, make web pages, slide shows whatever.

    There is no point where you need to convert, there is no extra work with respect to jpgs, as the workflow would be exactly the same.

    I think many people are still stuck in the old 'load and convert' scenario (I used to do it, 5 folders for each shot: raw/tiff/forprint/forweb/thumbnail. Now I have a single folder with the RAW files in it.

    Am I missing something?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    I need to deliver images to clients so I process to tiff's than I only do as a service to them small jpegs for viewing and such. Not all my clients or let's say everyone in a company can open a 128 meg tif files just the graphics folks. But the rest use the jpegs for e-mail and such. I only shoot raw myself but for some folks in transition on what they want to do than I say shoot both but if I had my way everyone would should shoot raw but I never get my way. LOL

    On the jpegs i just run action in PS from my tifs to a reduced srgb jpeg 8 bit file in a separate folder which takes really no time to do than add that to the master tif's and burn DVD's for them. I never save those jpegs though they get tossed after i burn there DVD's
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I need to deliver images to clients so I process to tiff's than I only do as a service to them small jpegs for viewing and such. Not all my clients or let's say everyone in a company can open a 128 meg tif files just the graphics folks. But the rest use the jpegs for e-mail and such. I only shoot raw myself but for some folks in transition on what they want to do than I say shoot both but if I had my way everyone would should shoot raw but I never get my way. LOL

    On the jpegs i just run action in PS from my tifs to a reduced srgb jpeg 8 bit file in a separate folder which takes really no time to do than add that to the master tif's and burn DVD's for them. I never save those jpegs though they get tossed after i burn there DVD's
    Hi Guy
    I realise that if you're delivering files to clients there are different requirements. But for most of us you don't need to even consider any of the exporting / conversion routines if you use Lightroom or Aperture.

    It seems to me than anyone who is deciding whether to shoot RAW or JPG is NOT going to be delivering files to clients - and if that's the case, then all of the conversion stuff is completely beside the point.

    use Lightroom (or Aperture) shoot RAW, and that's all that's needed.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    use Lightroom (or Aperture) shoot RAW, and that's all that's needed.
    I don't disagree, but it might be misleading to someone still on the cusp of deciding to shoot RAW. Technically, if someone follows your path, and decides to send a few photos to a friend or relative via email or post them to this forum, they'll want to convert them to jpegs. Same as when Guy does it for client's internal low res use.

    That conversion can take place from within Lightroom (or Aperture) and needs to include a few selected options. Namely, color space, file format and pixel dimensions. These options are presented at the point of conversion or "Export", and they can either be standardized by the user, or modified each time. But however you cut it, it's a conversion.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    for batch conversions i was thinking of when you want a whole series of pics to have a certain look. you can do one in lightroom and then apply this to all the rest then convert the bunch.

    before we get completely on-topic! (i think guy has neatly summarized the value of raw). i'd like to clear up an earlier misconception.

    cartier-bresson may have already had an eye, but he did not spring fully formed from the head of zeus. he studied for two years with the painter andre lhote who was absolutely bugs about geometry being the basis of composition and he drilled it into his students, henri included.

    also there were other influences. henri attended the meetings of the surrealists and was friends with andre breton for breton's whole life. lots of art and design talk must have gone on at those meetings and henri's early work certainly shows a surrealist streak.

    this is the book that changed cartier-bresson's way of looking at things, not only in his work but in his life: http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archer...4851660&sr=8-1

    since we all don't have an andre lhote, these are the three books i've found the most useful:

    http://www.amazon.com/Photograph-Com...4851772&sr=1-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-...4851829&sr=1-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Colo...4851829&sr=1-9

    best,
    wayne
    www.pbase.com/wwp

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Tim,
    I agree that you need a conversion. However for me it is one click. I have a folder called getdpi and I export to that folder is srgb, 900 pixels, 75 quality and I'm done. It is a preset. Ok I do get a little fancier sometimes and dump the jpegs into subfolders based on the event.
    Last edited by Terry; 30th June 2008 at 11:47.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Very interesting Wayne. Did not realize Henri studied that much in somewhat formal training.

    Also yes Wayne I know exactly what you are after on the processing end of working in large numbers and making global changes . It actually is pretty easy once you know some of the steps.

    But back to Jono's point yes you can make anything you want file wise from within LR , C1 and Aperture. Actually the old C1 was really cool the Pro version that is . Reason being you could process up to 3 different type files with different parameters all at once going into the same folder. So you could have a high res Tif, Low res jpeg and a Powerpoint size files if needed. This way each file gets all the same treatment but just different formats and sizes. Very cool feature, I am hoping we will see that in the new Pro version as well. Okay off to processing , have a hot rush. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    I don't disagree, but it might be misleading to someone still on the cusp of deciding to shoot RAW. Technically, if someone follows your path, and decides to send a few photos to a friend or relative via email or post them to this forum, they'll want to convert them to jpegs. Same as when Guy does it for client's internal low res use.

    That conversion can take place from within Lightroom (or Aperture) and needs to include a few selected options. Namely, color space, file format and pixel dimensions. These options are presented at the point of conversion or "Export", and they can either be standardized by the user, or modified each time. But however you cut it, it's a conversion.
    Hi Tim
    I use Aperture - I don't deny that there are occasions when you may need to do this, but the options are there - and there are defaults for email / web etc. which have sensible default options. Compared to using an action from within photoshop (which is what Guy does, and what I used to do) it's so simple,and you have to make an effort to get it wrong.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    But back to Jono's point yes you can make anything you want file wise from within LR , C1 and Aperture. Actually the old C1 was really cool the Pro version that is . Reason being you could process up to 3 different type files with different parameters all at once going into the same folder. So you could have a high res Tif, Low res jpeg and a Powerpoint size files if needed. This way each file gets all the same treatment but just different formats and sizes. Very cool feature, I am hoping we will see that in the new Pro version as well. Okay off to processing , have a hot rush. LOL
    But my point Guy is that for most amateurs you just don't need to do this - you want an email? there are sensible email options which put it in an email. You want a web page? you can publish it direct from the progam. You want a printed album? put in your credit card and it's there!

    Creating 3 different file types is a nightmare with respect to cataloguing and storage, and for most people it really isn't necessary.

    Keep the RAW file and that's ALL YOU NEED.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Yes that is true Jono within a lot of the new programs you can just hit a e-mail button and it does it for you. pretty useful features . I know IPhoto has a lot of these features and what i use for clients is load there files in Iphoto after i do my thing which most don't have to. Than create a web gallery for them to download from. Makes my life easier sometimes. Actually have to do that today on a rush job
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    The one thing we did not mention which we should is once you have the Raw file stored at some later upgrade point with some of these programs with new and better functions and features you can process them even better with improved software.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    I can see how my post may have been misleading. I was maybe trying to be too literal for someone who has NEVER shot RAW and was contemplating the switch. It's a small point, but those folks need to be aware that you don't use a RAW file for all the various instances mentioned. It simply gets converted from RAW to another format in your software of choice.

    And yup, I have one of those folders too that's just for .jpeg conversions for posting or emailing. I do hold onto them and keep them for future use. Saves converting them again.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Tim
    I use Aperture - I don't deny that there are occasions when you may need to do this, but the options are there - and there are defaults for email / web etc. which have sensible default options. Compared to using an action from within photoshop (which is what Guy does, and what I used to do) it's so simple,and you have to make an effort to get it wrong.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But my point Guy is that for most amateurs you just don't need to do this - you want an email? there are sensible email options which put it in an email. You want a web page? you can publish it direct from the progam. You want a printed album? put in your credit card and it's there!

    Creating 3 different file types is a nightmare with respect to cataloguing and storage, and for most people it really isn't necessary.

    Keep the RAW file and that's ALL YOU NEED.
    Jono,
    While I would agree with you that this is pretty much true for most folks, it does not always work for folks that have to go back to shots and reprint them or something like that. In that case, having saved all the various tweaks and adjustments in something like a multi-layered PSD file is important. Further, presently, I do one kind of sharpening for display in Web galleries and stuff, but apply a different kind of sharpening for making prints....and even that is media dependent (canvas, luster, glossy, etc.)

    So, keeping just the RAW, even with the preliminary adjustments, is important and can be done in Aperture or Lightroom. But a final version that may have to be reprinted several times and maybe at later dates, does better being stored separately as a 16-bit PSD file with all the various layers and stuff. That is the one place where Aperture (and Lightroom) fall down....they are unable to handle layers of instruction sets that can be tweaked separately, as is done in PS. I hope they find a way to manage that without having to essentially save two, three, six, or however many "versions" of adjustments that are TIFF or PSD files themselves, but without layer access.

    I have several clients that have come to me a few years after buying prints and wanting more of those exact prints. If I had not saved the PSD files at the time, I would be struggling to figure out just what I did with adjustments, cloning, etc., to get the final file. If one does not shoot and process things like this, then you are correct, just save the RAW file and whatever adjustment instruction sets that need to go with it.

    LJ

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    I'm sure you guys know, but there's a preview jpeg file embedded in every RAW file, a basic quality jpeg, that can be extracted by a free software program:

    http://drchung.new21.net/previewextractor/

    Whether this might offer an advantage over what's already been discussed, I'm not sure.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    The point about HCB is that you don't develop an eye like that through study and tutelage alone. The man was supremely gifted and most likely would have developed a similar eye had he been left alone to his own devices.

    There are millions of photography students, and millions of photographers studying and being influenced with the goal of improving their eye, but alas, only one HCB.

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    Re: The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

    Yes things are a little different from the Pro side of the world. I actually have separate hard drives one labeled RAW and the other FINAL and that is exactly what they are. The finals have all the layers and such and saved as Tif's with layers. There really not even the client files because my tifs in this hard drive are for me, so they are 16bit and all that stuff . The clients sometimes just get a 8 bit Tif and smaller depending on there need and what they can handle but that depends on each clients. But my Final Drive is really the masters. But let's not confuse everyone with what I do since it will be much different than the hobbyist needs but nice to know how Pro's handle the files in storage and such and how they meet there client needs too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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