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The benefits of shooting Raw over Jpegs

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The point about HCB is that you don't develop an eye like that through study and tutelage alone. The man was supremely gifted and most likely would have developed a similar eye had he been left alone to his own devices.

There are millions of photography students, and millions of photographers studying and being influenced with the goal of improving their eye, but alas, only one HCB.
Yes like I said you have to have a good eye to start but you can develop that eye. i have seen it on several workshop folks already after 2 workshops how much there eye has improved. Hell i will even pick on one . Terry for instance has really made major improvements to her shooting and composition and such. Hope she still loves me now. LOL But seriously her work has been on a major upswing in what she has been shooting. Jack and I both agree on this and have talked about it several times. No question you can get better but having a good eye to start really cuts the learning curve down a lot. I also said some will never have it and i have seen that on the web also. But honestly not here, we have some damn good shooters here.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono,
While I would agree with you that this is pretty much true for most folks, it does not always work for folks that have to go back to shots and reprint them or something like that. In that case, having saved all the various tweaks and adjustments in something like a multi-layered PSD file is important. Further, presently, I do one kind of sharpening for display in Web galleries and stuff, but apply a different kind of sharpening for making prints....and even that is media dependent (canvas, luster, glossy, etc.)

So, keeping just the RAW, even with the preliminary adjustments, is important and can be done in Aperture or Lightroom. But a final version that may have to be reprinted several times and maybe at later dates, does better being stored separately as a 16-bit PSD file with all the various layers and stuff. That is the one place where Aperture (and Lightroom) fall down....they are unable to handle layers of instruction sets that can be tweaked separately, as is done in PS. I hope they find a way to manage that without having to essentially save two, three, six, or however many "versions" of adjustments that are TIFF or PSD files themselves, but without layer access.

I have several clients that have come to me a few years after buying prints and wanting more of those exact prints. If I had not saved the PSD files at the time, I would be struggling to figure out just what I did with adjustments, cloning, etc., to get the final file. If one does not shoot and process things like this, then you are correct, just save the RAW file and whatever adjustment instruction sets that need to go with it.

LJ
Hi There
I don't use Lightroom, but Aperture CERTAINLY DOES SUPPORT THIS. Simply set PSD as your default in photoshop, edit in external editor, the PSD file shows in aperture, and can simply be reloaded in photoshop.

I may be completely wrong, but I get the distinct impression that many haven't really examined the functionality in these programs - if you're still using multiple file exports then I really think that's the case.

Of course, maybe I'm just being stupid?
 
P

Player

Guest
Guy, I know a good eye can be taught, no argument from me whatsoever, but wouldn't you concede that a genius eye (if you believe such a thing exists) is one of those "either you have it or you don't situations"? I know if a beginning photographer, for example, just followed some basic shooting rules or tips their photography could improve dramatically. Even the most basic guidelines like fill-the-frame and the rule-of-thirds could improve a lot of folk's photography, but the geniuses are doing something different. Do you agree with this on any level? Thanks.
 
P

Player

Guest
Guy, there's a b&w photo, the first one in Jono Slack's "I love my M8" thread that absolutely blows me away. Talk about an eye! Brilliant!
 

jonoslack

Active member
Yes things are a little different from the Pro side of the world. I actually have separate hard drives one labeled RAW and the other FINAL and that is exactly what they are. The finals have all the layers and such and saved as Tif's with layers. There really not even the client files because my tifs in this hard drive are for me, so they are 16bit and all that stuff . The clients sometimes just get a 8 bit Tif and smaller depending on there need and what they can handle but that depends on each clients. But my Final Drive is really the masters. But let's not confuse everyone with what I do since it will be much different than the hobbyist needs but nice to know how Pro's handle the files in storage and such and how they meet there client needs too.
Guy, sure, you can do this, but you don't need to - Aperture will handle this for you - if the versions of the RAW are not enough, and you need to work in Photoshop, then set the default export mode as 16 bit tiff in Aperture, and that's what it'll make, save, catalogue and reference. If you want a multi layer PSD, then it'll save that too - you choose, and the whole thing is transparent and seamless.

When your client wants 8 bit tiffs, then you select them and export in that format to a DVD - secondary sharpening is available when printing (which will obviously be different for different sizes).

Shoot me down in flames, but the arguments that you and others are making is that shooting RAW necessarily makes for more knowledge and complications - I just don't agree, I think it's simple. What's more I'm almost certain that most experienced people have looked at Lightroom and Aperture and then gone back to the old model with multiple files in different sizes and formats without really exploring the potential of these programs.

Again and again you can read between the lines and see that people are really just using the programs (Aperture and Lightroom) like another raw converter (C1 for instance), which is missing the point so badly.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well yes Henri had a amazing eye will not deny that for a second and there are many others . It was certainly a natural gift at birth but even they developed it further than the first outing with a camera or painting and such. There is some training that went on for them but i agree some of them we can just call right out and say had a genius vision right out of the gate.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Guy, there's a b&w photo, the first one in Jono Slack's "I love my M8" thread that absolutely blows me away. Talk about an eye! Brilliant!
Oh! thank you! To be honest, if I have an eye, it's nothing to do with me, things pop up and I press the button . . . . but it certainly works better with practice.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy, sure, you can do this, but you don't need to - Aperture will handle this for you - if the versions of the RAW are not enough, and you need to work in Photoshop, then set the default export mode as 16 bit tiff in Aperture, and that's what it'll make, save, catalogue and reference. If you want a multi layer PSD, then it'll save that too - you choose, and the whole thing is transparent and seamless.

When your client wants 8 bit tiffs, then you select them and export in that format to a DVD - secondary sharpening is available when printing (which will obviously be different for different sizes).

Shoot me down in flames, but the arguments that you and others are making is that shooting RAW necessarily makes for more knowledge and complications - I just don't agree, I think it's simple. What's more I'm almost certain that most experienced people have looked at Lightroom and Aperture and then gone back to the old model with multiple files in different sizes and formats without really exploring the potential of these programs.

Again and again you can read between the lines and see that people are really just using the programs (Aperture and Lightroom) like another raw converter (C1 for instance), which is missing the point so badly.

Admittedly I do not know Aperture very well at all and only played with it, so I don't know the program well enough to speak of it. Also Jono I agree some things I don't want to learn and stick to some of my older ways because they are proven to me and my workflow. Change is good no question but changing a lot can be bad for a Pro. Also for others as well but yes I am missing a few of those tricks in the newer software.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Oh! thank you! To be honest, if I have an eye, it's nothing to do with me, things pop up and I press the button . . . . but it certainly works better with practice.
Don't kid yourself you have a very good eye and been saying that since i have known you.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Admittedly I do not know Aperture very well at all and only played with it, so I don't know the program well enough to speak of it. Also Jono I agree some things I don't want to learn and stick to some of my older ways because they are proven to me and my workflow. Change is good no question but changing a lot can be bad for a Pro. Also for others as well but yes I am missing a few of those tricks in the newer software.
Hi Guy
Well, I really do sympathise - I had a similar kind of workflow, and I threw all the cards up in the air to commit to Lightroom . . and then to Aperture - Lots of work, but now it's a dream. On the other hand, my library was only 20,000 shots, and I could afford to fiddle about with it as I'm not a full time pro.

But - I'm not for a second criticising the way you work - what I AM saying is that using the complications of your workflow as part of a discussion on whether or not to shoot RAW is unnecessary and frightening.

If someone asks me that question the answer is immediate - shoot RAW only . . . . but make sure you're using Lightroom or Aperture and keeping the files as referenced rather than internal. Then watch the online videos!
 

jonoslack

Active member
Don't kid yourself you have a very good eye and been saying that since i have known you.
Thank you :)
Trouble is I have no control over it! Old photographic rule - see it, grab it quick before it goes away, then, if you have time try and get the right angle. For me it's always that grab shot which works best . . . it's one of the reasons not to go MF - I don't need to work more slowly!
 
P

Player

Guest
Oh! thank you! To be honest, if I have an eye, it's nothing to do with me, things pop up and I press the button . . . . but it certainly works better with practice.
You sound like HCB. :) Henri says that he just points the camera and clicks the shutter. Humility is good though. Congrats!
 

LJL

New member
Hi There
I don't use Lightroom, but Aperture CERTAINLY DOES SUPPORT THIS. Simply set PSD as your default in photoshop, edit in external editor, the PSD file shows in aperture, and can simply be reloaded in photoshop.

I may be completely wrong, but I get the distinct impression that many haven't really examined the functionality in these programs - if you're still using multiple file exports then I really think that's the case.

Of course, maybe I'm just being stupid?
Jono,
We are a bit skew on our discussion. I use Aperture myself for tons of things, including the cataloging of those "finals" I keep for clients. No problem there. And I do export stuff as 16-bit PSD files, so I agree, that works very nicely. What I was talking about was having an image that gets several layers of adjustments, say using Nik software tools like Viveza, Color Efex, Dfine and Pro Sharpener. While one could just flatten the layers for the final, I preserve several of them, especially the sharpening layer, as it differs with size of image and media to which you may print. So, I could do a 5x7 glossy of a shot, or a 24x30 canvas of the same adjusted shot, and have each sharpened properly, while also having all the color adjustments made and preserved as layers. This is particularly important if one does selective area work and "paints" things in at different opacities, etc.

So far, Aperture has not been able to allow any adjustments to the layers, even though it is able to preserve them. So, I keep the "final" versions of these sorts of files on their own drive, much as Guy mentions, and import them into Aperture as referenced files. The nice thing there is it still lets me send emails, post galleries, export to someplace else, etc. The only thing I cannot do is work on the individual layers again unless I go back into PS.

This is a bit different need than just having a RAW file, making the adjustments in Aperture and leaving it at that, unless I keep separate versions of each image with different adjustment layers. That is not so practical, nor space saving. Keeping the RAW and its original set of adjustments is excellent, but layers do not work so well there.

It is not like thousands and thousands of files (though the number is growing), so keeping the "final" versions of things with layers preserved is not too onerous for those important files. For everything else, I am very comfortable generating a newly processed image as needed in Aperture. For files that I do not intend to change, I can just flatten the layers and save it that way.

I know this got off-topic a bit, as this was about the benefits of shooting RAW over JPEGs originally, but I do see one of the biggest benefits of RAW being the ability to keep coming back to an image file and working it however you need to non-destructively, plus having so much more information to work with from the start. I shoot sport event stuff, and have only shot JPEGs one time in my entire digital career, mainly because at the time I was running out of cards at an overly long event and had to switch to JPEGs just to finish capturing things. (This was early on before I knew to carry 30-40GB of card storage all the time :D)

The only other point I had is that RAW files do need some adjustments, even before converting them to JPEGs, and that is the extra step that some complain about, especially if they need to shoot of several files quickly. I still do not think that is as big and issue as folks make it out to be. Working with RAW files becomes very second nature and one can produce a superb image file reduced to JPEG for exporting very quickly, and in Aperture, it is truly simple.

LJ
 

jonoslack

Active member
The only other point I had is that RAW files do need some adjustments, even before converting them to JPEGs, and that is the extra step that some complain about, especially if they need to shoot of several files quickly. I still do not think that is as big and issue as folks make it out to be. Working with RAW files becomes very second nature and one can produce a superb image file reduced to JPEG for exporting very quickly, and in Aperture, it is truly simple.

LJ
HI there
Well, I also have some files which are modified in both Viveza and photoshop, and I save them as I see fit and reference them in Aperture (by the way, I 'reference' ALL files in Aperture, I don't think importing them serves any useful function). The point is that although you can't modify them in Aperture (the layers) you can see that they are there, and open in the appropriate program.

It's the last bit (in the quote above) that confuses me - the default profile for most cameras (for instance the D3) in Aperture produces files that are just as 'useable' as the jpgs from the camera.
But what I don't understand is your reference to ' converting to jpgs' . . .why would you? I certainly don't? I simply fail to see why shooting raw is more effort than shooting jpg in Aperture . . . . am I being very stupid?
 

LJL

New member
HI there
Well, I also have some files which are modified in both Viveza and photoshop, and I save them as I see fit and reference them in Aperture (by the way, I 'reference' ALL files in Aperture, I don't think importing them serves any useful function). The point is that although you can't modify them in Aperture (the layers) you can see that they are there, and open in the appropriate program.

It's the last bit (in the quote above) that confuses me - the default profile for most cameras (for instance the D3) in Aperture produces files that are just as 'useable' as the jpgs from the camera.
But what I don't understand is your reference to ' converting to jpgs' . . .why would you? I certainly don't? I simply fail to see why shooting raw is more effort than shooting jpg in Aperture . . . . am I being very stupid?
Jono,
When I said "converting to JPEGs", I was referring to very specific needs, such as a client wanting low and high resolution JPEGs to use in online and print stuff respectively. That conversion is very simple in Aperture. The other part of that is that although I find the RAW conversion in Aperture to be pretty good for my 1DsMkII and 1DMkII files as the "stock" profile, it is not quite what I prefer for some shots, so I will tweak things as I think they need it. Maybe I should talk about that as the adjustment instead, but I have not found any conversion tool able to produce an image to my liking without some tweaks. Just me. So I would never run a bunch of RAW images into an app and have them turned into anything else without my going over each one to some degree. Lot more work for me, but it does not go out until it looks the way I want it to look, not the way the application thinks is o.k.

For the record, I personally do not think shooting RAW is more effort than shooting JPEGs. Maybe a few more steps for some things, as my preferences require, but I would probably want to do that with the JPEGs too, and that is just worth fiddling with. Shoot RAW and get the look you prefer is my mantra.

Now, if I was doing a lot of studio shooting with very controlled lighting and stuff, "batch" processing of RAW might be an option, but the vast majority of my shots are fast action, on the move stuff under rapidly changing light, so I feel strongly about making the adjustments to files for my liking, as none of the standard profiles or WBs ever get things quite right for me.

LJ
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
Hi,
I've been away for a while, and am only slowly catching up. If this following comment has been made before, my apologies.

An argument against jpg alone is this; I have noticed that auto jpg from a P+S have shown rather odd colours - usually in the sky, which is a sort of cyan rather than blue. The corresponding raw was much more accurate.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Bertie and this will always be true with any camera on AWB it is really just guessing at the correct color balance, some certainly better than others but the truth is if jpeg only your just flat out stuck with it, with Raw you can certainly use the correct WB.
 

jonoslack

Active member
You sound like HCB. :) Henri says that he just points the camera and clicks the shutter. Humility is good though. Congrats!
Embarrassed it is that I am! (and not so flattered as to be fooled)
AND I'm not sure that the people around this house would subscribe to the humility theory either:)

But I do realise that most of my successful shots are more to do with the subconscious - and that shooting every day hones this ability.

But - thank you again, it's a kind remark, and very much appreciated.

Bertie - I think that some cameras do really good jpg files (the Olympus E1 is a case in point - they're always lovely), others are dreadful.

Nowadays, the only reason I can see for shooting jpg is if you need to wire pictures straight from your camera via mobile phone . . . but if that were the case, I would have thought you'd shoot both jpg and raw.

On the other hand . . . it's amazing what you can do with respect to WB even with jpgs - Lightroom is especially good at this.

As for Auto White Balance, I'm increasingly feeling that it's like playing Russian roulette - but with 4 bullets in the gun rather than 1!
 
P

Player

Guest
But I do realise that most of my successful shots are more to do with the subconscious - and that shooting every day hones this ability.
See, it's the subconscious that everyone takes for granted, and they just chalk-up their successes to dumb luck. I know better though.

Reminds me of golf: can Tiger Woods really take credit for that amazing chip-in, or the eagle where he was just trying to get the ball close? I think so!
 

jonoslack

Active member
See, it's the subconscious that everyone takes for granted, and they just chalk-up their successes to dumb luck. I know better though.

Reminds me of golf: can Tiger Woods really take credit for that amazing chip-in, or the eagle where he was just trying to get the ball close? I think so!
EXACTLY - I couldn't agree more - like playing darts, the calculations required to work out the trajectory before throwing . . . impossible, yet some of us can certainly do it, and with practice we get better at it.

My photography is like that, and I really do need to 'go with the flow'. It is actually the principle reason why I didn't go for MF - I don't want to be more careful and deliberate, I don't want to stick the camera on a tripod and think!

Of course, for others it's different.

It's great to actually formalise these feelings though, so thank you for your succinct and excellent post.
 
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