Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    i thought i should choose tiff but the shop i was going to use to archive my entire 35mm library says most pros choose the highest jpg format since the difference in real life is so so so small. the jpg file at 3000dpi would be like a 5-7mb file where is the tiff 3000dpi would be a 40-50mb file.

    what should i do?


    any help in this will be appreciated.


    thanks
    angelo.

  2. #2
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    i thought i should choose tiff but the shop i was going to use to archive my entire 35mm library says most pros choose the highest jpg format since the difference in real life is so so so small. the jpg file at 3000dpi would be like a 5-7mb file where is the tiff 3000dpi would be a 40-50mb file.
    If you're talking about 8-bit TIFFs, I agree with the shop: full resolution and maximum quality JPEGs are virtually indistinguishable from 8-bit TIFFs of the same image, with or without either LZW or Zip compression applied. If your archives are intended to be finished work with little need for future editing, either do as well and JPEGs are more space efficient.

    However, I archive in full resolution 16-bit TIFF format with Zip compression. That retains a lot more tonal data for future editing work, but file sizes are in the 20-40 Mbyte range for 12 Mpixel digital captures. 12 Mpixel film scans (that's about what a 2900 ppi scan from 35mm full frame negative amounts to) don't compress quite as well as digital captures due to grain and other noise, so expect sizings in the 30-50 range for color work.

  3. #3
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Everything for me is stored in 16Bit High Rez Tif with ProPhoto color space. Maximum output I can produce is stored. Than work from there with save as for other medium. My files are typical 220mgs from my P40+ back.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    not going to do too much editing to any of my archived photos but if i decide to enlarge them to say 24x36 will i notice a difference then between highest jpg or a 16bit tiff file?

    they say the highest jpg scans yeild like a 5-7mb file and the highest tiff file yeilds a 40-50mb file both scanned at 4000dpi.

    i want to store my images right and only once.


    thanks for all the help.

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    not going to do too much editing to any of my archived photos but if i decide to enlarge them to say 24x36 will i notice a difference then between highest jpg or a 16bit tiff file?

    they say the highest jpg scans yeild like a 5-7mb file and the highest tiff file yeilds a 40-50mb file both scanned at 4000dpi.

    i want to store my images right and only once.
    The most data is almost always the best way to archive if you are looking for maximum flexibility and quality in the future. As both Guy and I said, that's 16-bit TIFF with ProPhoto RGB color space (usually with Zip compression these days as well).

    How well a max quality JPEG image will print to an enlarged size depends on how critical you are and how good the JPEG is. It's unanswerable without much more specific info just how different that would be to an archive TIFF file as described above.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Culver City, Ca.
    Posts
    164
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    You wouldn't see any difference in resolution or overall tonality, but there's a real possibility that a saturated gradated sky could have problems printing from a jpeg that would not be there from a 16 bpc tiff, particularly when printing to a process where the act of profile conversion puts a large tweak on the file, and almost certainly for any type of CMYK offset printing. Storage is so inexpensive these days that saving as jpeg is sort of false savings.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    i think i am going to go with tiff 8bit for my archiving my big library.

    archiving at 16bit tiff would cost a lot more and i have a 300+ rolls to archive so it adds up.

    i know its hard to answer but do you guys think the 8bit tiff is a pretty good archiving format?
    the shop says they do a lot of archiving for pros and they say most pros are happy with the 8bit tiff at 4000dpi.


    btw any recommendations for a great inexpensive place to do my archiving would be appreciated.

    thanks again for all the help

  8. #8
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    I archive at max bit depth and finished size.
    with disk drives so cheap I don'r see a reason not to.
    The cheapest archive location I have found is:
    1) A set of disk drives at a friend's house.
    2) a safe deposit box and a set of disk drives.
    For belt and suspenders, use both.
    -bob

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    i know disk space is so cheap but when you are paying to scan per 35mm slide or 35mm negative to be scanned at 4000dpi that is the expensive part x 300+ rolls of film.

    to scan and save at 16bit tiff as opposed to 8bit tiff would cost about 40% more so that is my dilemma.

    i dont do much editing to my photos anyway so not sure if 8bit would suffice.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    I'm with Bob and pfigen as it is a false savings to not save the 16bit file. Who cares what "most pros are happy with" - you could also argue most pros have professional capture within the limits of their output medium so they don't have to worry about dropping to 8-bit. 16-bit files gives you the headroom to do what you want with the files--are all of your exposures professional captures? Mine aren't and I enjoy the 16-bit safety net for those great shots that need a little more help.

    Based off of 300 rolls of 36 exposure film and based off your info that "the highest tiff file yeilds a 40-50mb file" we're looking at:

    300roll x 36 exposures = 10,800 individual frames

    To make sure we're not undercutting, let's go 350 rolls.

    350 rolls x 36 exposures = 12,600 frames

    12,600 frames x 50mB/frame = 630,000mB

    It seems like a lot, but:
    16bit: 630,000mB * (1gB/1024mB) = ~615gB

    3x 750gB Western Digital Green hard drives at Newegg.com are $65 each today, or $195. (one at the house, someone else's house, safety deposit box like Bob suggested)

    If the price difference is 40% we're talking about a saving of less than $100 and that's if you bought all 3 hard drives today--storage will only get cheaper! I don't know anything about you or your photography, Angelo, but I am going to say your photography and piece of mind is worth that ~$100 if you're going to take the time to do the scans in the first place.

    That's my recommendation based on wanting "to store your images right and only once".
    Last edited by Jeremy; 23rd April 2011 at 14:05. Reason: clarification

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    the hard drive cost is not my concern, it is the cost to have a service scan each of my slides and negatives:

    16bit tiff for 300 rolls would cost me approx 60cents a scan x 10,800 scans= $5940.

    8bit tiffs would cost approx .40cents x 10,800= $4320.


    appox $1700 is the difference.

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Culver City, Ca.
    Posts
    164
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    I have a hard time believing you'd actually need or even want every single frame scanned. Having spent the last dozen years operating a drum scanner for fun and profit, I go through waves of scans, scanning what I need or want at the time.

    If I had a lot of scans to do I'd certainly buy my own scanner. After the initial learning curve has been mastered, you'll be making better scans than you'd ever get commercially but would have to spend the time doing it.

    I've never understood why scanning services charge more for 16 bit output. I know on my drum scanner, the only difference is the file size. The scanning time is identical, as the scanner scans in 16 bit no matter what and the software is what downsamples it.

    I guess if I were sending out for sixty cent scans, I'd like to know what you're getting for that low price, and is there really a difference on whatever scanner they're using, between 16 and 8 bit. I know I'd be very leery of any scan that cheap.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Montgomery, AL
    Posts
    27
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Any good recommendations on where to get a few thousand 35mm negs scanned?

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    if i was to scan at 16bit the shop says the files would be 120mb+ in size.

    on a new imac i5 with 16gb ram, will i be able to thumb through my archive effortlessly in the thumbnail veiwer of aperture 3 or will there be a lot of slowdown due to the shear size of these files?

    not sure if these 100mb+ files are difficult to work with since honestly i don't think i ever opened a 100mb file.

    thanks again

    happy easter everybody.

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Any good recommendations on where to get a few thousand 35mm negs scanned?
    http://www.scancafe.com does a good job. i have had them do a batch of 250 and was pleased with the service.

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    if i was to scan at 16bit the shop says the files would be 120mb+ in size.

    on a new imac i5 with 16gb ram, will i be able to thumb through my archive effortlessly in the thumbnail veiwer of aperture 3 or will there be a lot of slowdown due to the shear size of these files?

    not sure if these 100mb+ files are difficult to work with since honestly i don't think i ever opened a 100mb file.
    All depend on what you define to be "effortless". 100Mb image files means a computer will be working hard no matter what.

  17. #17
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Phila./NY
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    Any good recommendations on where to get a few thousand 35mm negs scanned?
    There are many quality services out there. One that I have particular experience with is www.fotobridge.com .

    I have used them for a few projects. One that was quite large that consisted of about 13,000 slides, 12,000 prints and many hours of 8mm film and a variety of types of video tapes.
    They handled this job professionally and with excellent quality. Everything was returned on hard drives and also the originals were repackaged very nicely.

    They are based here in the United States in New Jersey and all work is performed at their facility and not shipped overseas.

    Take a look at their website and give a call over to Julie if you have any questions. She is one of the owners.

    Lance
    Last edited by lance_schad; 25th April 2011 at 03:24. Reason: corrected url
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Shoot, I need to get into the commercial scanning business--no more of this academic stuff!

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    309
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    [QUOTE=gooomz;310029]on a new imac i5 with 16gb ram, will i be able to thumb through my archive effortlessly in the thumbnail veiwer of aperture 3 or will there be a lot of slowdown due to the shear size of these files?/QUOTE]

    I've never used Aperture 3, but I use Lightroom 3 with film scans--some in the 1.5+gB range and don't have any problems. Where you will have slow down is in the creation of the library and during export--just make sure and create 1:1 preview jpegs of all of the images ahead of time and you shouldn't have any problems (this is assuming Aperture 3 functions as a database program like LR3).

  20. #20
    Member Arjuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post
    There are many quality services out there. One that I have particular experience with is www.fotobrdige.com .
    Lance

    Note: I believe that the link has a typo, and that it is actually: fotobridge

  21. #21
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Phila./NY
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Note: I believe that the link has a typo, and that it is actually: fotobridge
    Thank you , corrected it in the post.

    L
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    i will check out fotobridge.com

    any other recommendations?

    btw. i think you guys convinced me to spend the extra money and get the 16bit tiff scans but what is "prophoto rgb color space" and do i just ask for it or is it standard?

  23. #23
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    16-bit tiff because drives are so cheap. Jpeg only because you're lazy and want to store online. That said, for 35mm slide or B&W neg scans the difference in quality between 8-bit max jpeg and 16-bit tiff is negligible; but for the nuances in a color neg scan, 16-bit can be a real advantage -- especially if you are going to manipulate the color channels individually and/or apply dedicated profiles, which we usually do for color neg. Finally, with tiff there is no color degradation that you can get with jpeg every time you make any change and re-save it. Hence, I do everything as a 16-bit tiff as a matter of habit.

    PS: Did I mention that drives are really cheap right now? A 2TB drive can be had for $90. You can store ~40,000 ~50MB files on it -- for a total cost of less than 1/3rd of a cent per image -- and have fully redundant back-up for another $90. How many scans do you have to save?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  24. #24
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Phila./NY
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    i will check out fotobridge.com

    any other recommendations?

    btw. i think you guys convinced me to spend the extra money and get the 16bit tiff scans but what is "prophoto rgb color space" and do i just ask for it or is it standard?
    My suggestion is to give a few of the services a try with a sample selection of slides. This will allow you to see how their customer service and quality is.

    Besides www.Fotobridge.com (only ones I have first hand experience with )
    there are:

    Scancafe.com
    Scandigital.com
    imemories.com

    numerous others if you google it.....


    I would not just fill out an online form and mail your slides in, but I would engage them in a conversation first and make sure you are comfortable with them. I personally would not use a service that ships the job overseas to do the scanning.

    Best of luck and look forward to hearing how you make out.

    I know there are a lot of people out there in the same boat as you.

    Lance
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    what is "prophoto rgb color space"?

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,927
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    Quote Originally Posted by gooomz View Post
    what is "prophoto rgb color space"?
    start here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProPhoto_RGB_color_space

  27. #27
    pmalmert
    Guest

    Re: archving 35mm in tiff or highest jpg?

    If you want to edit your images later you should definitely have them in TIFF and with a very high quality scanner that does not use interpolation (e.g. do not use Nikon CoolScan's ICE). It makes scans very fuzzy and eliminates details: the pixels around dust specks or scratches get replaced with pixels around that dust speck.

    I tried to scan my slides with the Nikon CoolScan but getting rid of the dust specks was very difficult. Nikon's automatic dust and scratch removal software did not work for my Ektachrome or BW slides. On my other slides I got very blurry images since their dust removal software interpolates the pixels around the dust and scratches. Also many older slides hat color casts I could not get rid off. I found a scan service in Maryland called Truescan slide scan service http://truescan.us that scans everything manually on-site. They use a new technology that scans only the actual slide surface but not the dust on top or the scratches within the slides. I had them make some free test scans first. Then I sent them all my 600 slides. They look excellent (4000 dpi at no extra cost); very crisp even when I zoom in. Apparently, they use the same scan approach for negatives. They also offer saving your TIFFs as well as JPEGs of the same image on DVDs, Blueray disks, or even a hard drive. So you have the TIFFs for later editing and the JPEGs for viewing on your PC.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •