weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

[gebseng]

Hi everyone,

I am a longtime user of Capture One, mainly with files from a Leaf digital back.

Now I used C1 7.1.6 for the first time with RAWs from my Olympus OM-D E-M5 with the M.Zuiko 2.0/12mm lens (I used ACR up to now with that camera).

After importing the files from the SD card I noticed something strange (which had never happened to me with the Leaf RAWs): all RAWs shot with this body/lens combination are pre-cropped, about 7% of the picture width and height. This is true with or without the "Hide Distorted Areas" feature checked in the "Lens Corretion" tool

Please also note that in the "Crop" tool below, the pre-cropped image show a resolution of 4608x3456px, which should be the "native" resolution of the E-M5 sensor. When I manually correct this automatic crop, the resolution goes up to 4918x3582px, which is kind of unlikely with a 16MP sensor ;-). I know, I know, the RAW image is upscaled anyway after de-bayering, but still this seems strange.

(see three screenshots below)

Correcting this is not trivial for the following reasons:
- clicking the "Reset Crop adjustments ..." icon in the "Crop" tool defaults to the "wrong" crop and not to a fully uncropped image, as it should be.
- un-cropping one image maually and then copy/pasting that to all the other images is hard, because I can not find a way to filter out and select only the images shot with that lens, PLUS with the same orientation (landscape or portrait).

RAWs shot with the E-M5 and the M.Zuiko 1.8/45mm (a lens without much native distortion) or with the Panasonic 1.4/25mm (which has lots of native distortion but alas no C! profile yet) do not show this auto-cropping behaviour.

I also attached the RAW file as a .zip, if anybody wants to play around with that.

Have any of you noticed this C1 behaviour with this specific lens/body combination, or with other lenses and bodies?

BTW, ACR also "auto-crops" a little bit, but only 1 or 2 %, which is negligible for me.

thanks for your input,

Gebhard

 

[Jack]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

It's from the lens corrections. C1 applies an auto "full fit" rectangular crop after applying corrections for barrel or pin-cushion distortions. If you dial the correction percentage down from 100% to 0%, you will see the crop go away. Additional tip: the standard format for the crop is unconstrained, so depending on lens you can end up with image ratios that are not identical. I set that to my desired crop ratio, for example 3:4.

 

[gebseng]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

It's from the lens corrections. C1 applies an auto "full fit" rectangular crop after applying corrections for barrel or pin-cushion distortions. If you dial the correction percentage down from 100% to 0%, you will see the crop go away. Additional tip: the standard format for the crop is unconstrained, so depending on lens you can end up with image ratios that are not identical. I set that to my desired crop ratio, for example 3:4.

Thanks for the reply, Jack!

I understand that some portion of the image has to be cropped after correcting for distortion, you can only override that with the "Crop Outside Image" checkbox in the Crop tool.

However, C1 crops the CORRECTED image more than necessary, another 7% or so. So it's not realy "full fit", but much less than that.

That's what I want to get rid off, and not manually on hundreds of files

Dialling down the correction percentage from 100% to 0% helps of course, but then I end up with an image that has to be corrected post-C1.

best,

Gebhard

 

[Jack]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

However, C1 crops the CORRECTED image more than necessary, another 7% or so. So it's not realy "full fit", but much less than that.

It does not crop to the last line of pixels after the correction, but crops to the last line of non-distorted pixels, and that varies with lens, hence the 'approximate 7% loss' of what otherwise may appear as usable pixels.

I am not sure how to accomplish what you desire other than manually. Perhaps a more seasoned C1 pro has some suggestions.

 

[gebseng]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

Thanks again for your input Jack!

I also filed a case with Phase One support, and they gave me the answer that "...this is added as many users and lenses are suffering from distortion that leaves images unuseable on the edges and will have to be cropped/corrected anyway..."

I still don't get it. Once again, of course the image has to be cropped after correction for distortion, but why so much more than necessary?

Of course this is not a real problem with single images, but in a professional production environment, where I have to process dozens, often hundreds of photos per week, this seems very tedious and unnecessary.

best,

Gebhard

 

[EsbenHR]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

Thanks again for your input Jack!

I also filed a case with Phase One support, and they gave me the answer that "...this is added as many users and lenses are suffering from distortion that leaves images unuseable on the edges and will have to be cropped/corrected anyway..."

I still don't get it. Once again, of course the image has to be cropped after correction for distortion, but why so much more than necessary?

That depends on your definition of "necessary". The current rule in Capture One is the following:
1) Leave the center of the image with as close as possible to the original (including scaling).
2) Leave the size of the default crop alone (measured in pixels) if possible.

Most lenses with enough distortion to matter have barrel distortion, which implies that you stretch the image at the corners. This leaves the corners blurred, and if MTF-curves are your thing, then you would not want the crop to expand to the full image. This is true for many lenses, even if you only expand it as much as you can while retaining the original aspect ratio.

This also match the behavior of most cameras that do in-camera correction. I can only recall Sony giving a larger crop in-camera, which they do by down-scaling the image as well as correcting for distortion. However, I only noticed the Sony because I own a NEX-7, so many others may do the same by now.

Even if you find soft corners acceptable, you would probably dislike your corners if they were black. Yet we are seeing fixed-lens cameras with designs where the image circle is inside the sensor. This is not a problem if you correct for distortion and crop.

Regards,

Esben H-R Myosotis

 

[gebseng]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

Thanks for the insightful reply, Esben!

Sorry for obsessing about this, I really like C1 otherwise...

I still think it would be nice being able to disable this feature. C1 is the only software I have used so far that does this.

As you can see with my sample image, this makes composition just a little harder sometimes.

Please also note the other three screenshots I attached: The first is from Apples very own preview app, the second from Adobe Camera Raw, the third directly from the OM-D E-M5 rear lcd. Note that all but C1 show a distortion-corrected image, but still manage to NOT crop more than necessary.

Again, no biggie for most users, but problematic in a working environment with high throughput (because, as far as I can see, there is no way to correct this with a simple batch or copy/past operation, since C1 does not allow to filter out images shot with a specific lens AND a specific orientation).

best,

Gebhard

 

[dougpeterson]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

based on your followup here:
weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

I do think there is something unusual going on with the default behavior for this combination.

I have re-read Esben's explanation and the larger-than-usual crop now makes more sense to me. If you want to override it the style/present method he outlined would work just fine.

 

[EsbenHR]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

Thanks for the insightful reply, Esben!

Sorry for obsessing about this, I really like C1 otherwise...

I still think it would be nice being able to disable this feature. C1 is the only software I have used so far that does this.

As you can see with my sample image, this makes composition just a little harder sometimes.

Well, I don't know what it means to "Disable the default crop", but I think I understand what you want to do.

While this is not a perfect solution, you could try the following:
1) Select the "Generic" lens and take the distortion to the max.
2) Remove the tick in "Hide distorted areas" and go the composition tab.
3) Tick the "Crop Outside Image" and make the crop as large as you can. This should be big due to the distortion applied.
4) Untick "Crop Outside Image" and go to the adjustment tab.
5) Copy the settings and build a style (say "BigCrop") with just the "Crop" and "Crop Outside Image" adjustments.

Now try to apply this style on top of your image and see if it does what you want. You can apply it during import which should take care of the workflow part.

Regards,

Esben

 

[gebseng]

Re: weird "default" crop with Capture One 7.1.6, OM-D E-M5 and Zuiko 2.0/12mm

Thanks for the suggestion, Esben!

Are there any ideas out there how to filter or sort images in Capture One based on orientation (landscape/portrait)? That would actually almost solve my problem.

After 8 posts and 7 screenshots I sent, Phase One customer support finally acknowleged the problem, so let's see if this gets fixed.

Really like Capture One otherwise!