Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I think its very cool but for photographers it has a big question mark. If it can't be calibrated correctly I want no part of it.
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New iMac Retina has 14.7 megapixel display!
- Thread starter bradhusick
- Start date
Actually, this does make sense to me.
So, like a crazy golf ball thrown into a shower stall I've bounced back to getting the iMac 5K Retina and will also hook up a wide gamut NEC monitor to it to work on. Great Retina 5K client presentation and accurate color PP. Best of both worlds.
The Mac Pro + 2 screens cost too much, and I've got other priorities.
- Marc
Stuart Richardson
Active member
I have to side with Guy on this one, even having just printed a book in CMYK. The printer I worked with for the book developed their own wider-gamut CMYK inks abandoning the CMYK standards to do so. The gamut is 40% greater than ISO standard: TRIFOLIO, Fine Art Books
They were using Eizo monitors, and so was I...their CMYK conversions looked fantastic and captured the vast majority of the colors in the original.
I mention this as an example of how technology is always surging forward. CMYK may be a small gamut for most places at the moment, but it is going to expand rapidly as technology improves. The wide gamut monitors are important if only because they give you a more complete view of what you are doing. Even if you don't care about accuracy, you are still adjusting colors you are not even seeing if you work with modern digital files on a standard gamut monitor. You either shrink everything down so you can see what is going on, or you just live with unpredictable results.
I understand what Godfrey meant about how accuracy was not important to him as much as pleasing results are. That is often the case for many artists and in many media, but to just forge ahead with an uncalibrated and low gamut display seems such a waste of time, if nothing else. Even if you are going to evaluate on the basis of test prints (which I agree is a good way to go!), just getting repeatable and consistent results saves you so much time and hassle. If you are printing on a regular basis, wider gamut monitors are so much easier and less-frustrating to work with.
Think of it this way: imagine you are in a room with a bunch of bottles, and your goal is to knock a particular one over. With a standard gamut monitor the lights are off and you basically have to flail around knocking over bottles until you hit the right one. With a wide gamut monitor, the lights are on and you just walk over and knock over the right one the first time. It's a weird idea, but it seems to fit here.
Even if color number accuracy isn't your concern, you gain a great deal from having a wider gamut monitor, even if you goal is to shrink down the gamut later. Better to have a declining gamut scale from monitor to print than to have a monitor in sRGB and prints or offset that can show colors you can't see on screen.
In any case, a 5K monitor sounds just fine by me. I would be happy to have a high resolution, wide gamut Eizo, but I think I will wait a few years until my CG275W starts showing its age and when 4-5K doesn't cost 4-5K.
They were using Eizo monitors, and so was I...their CMYK conversions looked fantastic and captured the vast majority of the colors in the original.
I mention this as an example of how technology is always surging forward. CMYK may be a small gamut for most places at the moment, but it is going to expand rapidly as technology improves. The wide gamut monitors are important if only because they give you a more complete view of what you are doing. Even if you don't care about accuracy, you are still adjusting colors you are not even seeing if you work with modern digital files on a standard gamut monitor. You either shrink everything down so you can see what is going on, or you just live with unpredictable results.
I understand what Godfrey meant about how accuracy was not important to him as much as pleasing results are. That is often the case for many artists and in many media, but to just forge ahead with an uncalibrated and low gamut display seems such a waste of time, if nothing else. Even if you are going to evaluate on the basis of test prints (which I agree is a good way to go!), just getting repeatable and consistent results saves you so much time and hassle. If you are printing on a regular basis, wider gamut monitors are so much easier and less-frustrating to work with.
Think of it this way: imagine you are in a room with a bunch of bottles, and your goal is to knock a particular one over. With a standard gamut monitor the lights are off and you basically have to flail around knocking over bottles until you hit the right one. With a wide gamut monitor, the lights are on and you just walk over and knock over the right one the first time. It's a weird idea, but it seems to fit here.
Even if color number accuracy isn't your concern, you gain a great deal from having a wider gamut monitor, even if you goal is to shrink down the gamut later. Better to have a declining gamut scale from monitor to print than to have a monitor in sRGB and prints or offset that can show colors you can't see on screen.
In any case, a 5K monitor sounds just fine by me. I would be happy to have a high resolution, wide gamut Eizo, but I think I will wait a few years until my CG275W starts showing its age and when 4-5K doesn't cost 4-5K.
Godfrey
Well-known member
I'm not siding with anyone. I am reporting my experiences in producing photos as prints for sale, books for sale, and image files for licensing.
Frankly, if the only way to see the glorious color a $40,000 digital back can produce is to buy a $2000+ display, it means that back is mostly useless. I print on paper, my clients license photographs that they print on paper or use to produce web pages that are displayed on uncalibrated, sRGB display systems. The vast majority of what is printed is not high-end art books; it's commercials and illustrations on much more pedestrian papers that can't handle even an sRGB color space and dynamic range.
That is the reality of the industry, the facts if you will, that I produce photographic work for.
BTW, Note also that I've said exactly nothing about the new Apple iMac with Retina 5K display. I don't have one, haven't seen one, haven't had any time to study one or learn how adaptable to calibration it might be. I'm not all that interested in it, its fancy display isn't doing much of anything I need.
G
Who said anything about "forging ahead with an uncalibrated and low gamut display"? Certainly not me. I calibrate and profile my displays and produce prints with a 100% color managed workflow. (Fer gosh sakes, I taught simple color management workflow techniques for a year and a half in the late 20-oughts.)
Frankly, if the only way to see the glorious color a $40,000 digital back can produce is to buy a $2000+ display, it means that back is mostly useless. I print on paper, my clients license photographs that they print on paper or use to produce web pages that are displayed on uncalibrated, sRGB display systems. The vast majority of what is printed is not high-end art books; it's commercials and illustrations on much more pedestrian papers that can't handle even an sRGB color space and dynamic range.
That is the reality of the industry, the facts if you will, that I produce photographic work for.
BTW, Note also that I've said exactly nothing about the new Apple iMac with Retina 5K display. I don't have one, haven't seen one, haven't had any time to study one or learn how adaptable to calibration it might be. I'm not all that interested in it, its fancy display isn't doing much of anything I need.
G
The contrast of the 5K reception on the photo boards vs the "industry" reporters et al, is striking.
The tech reporters are totally gaga over the 5k. Every one of them. Using superlatives I've never heard in reviews and hands ons.
On the photo boards it always comes down to calibration and how the true holy grail is Eizo etc.
I think they miss the point. After all the 5K can always run a nice calibrated second monitor for printing.
But how much do most of us really print? Meaning say Leica M users? Some print alot, but many seldom print.
If you don't print you want the richest display you can get, so you can really enjoy your work and other's work.
Calibration aside this is the most advanced display anyone has ever seen on a personal computer, and it will remain so for some time, as many key suppliers are not scaled for big numbers, at least according to computer world.
Presentation
Presentation
Presentation.
I can't wait
The tech reporters are totally gaga over the 5k. Every one of them. Using superlatives I've never heard in reviews and hands ons.
On the photo boards it always comes down to calibration and how the true holy grail is Eizo etc.
I think they miss the point. After all the 5K can always run a nice calibrated second monitor for printing.
But how much do most of us really print? Meaning say Leica M users? Some print alot, but many seldom print.
If you don't print you want the richest display you can get, so you can really enjoy your work and other's work.
Calibration aside this is the most advanced display anyone has ever seen on a personal computer, and it will remain so for some time, as many key suppliers are not scaled for big numbers, at least according to computer world.
Presentation
Presentation
Presentation.
I can't wait
Godfrey
Well-known member
So you piqued my interest. I had an errand to the local Apple Retail Store this afternoon anyway, so I took some time to look at the iMac 27" Retina. Dang, that screen has a lot of pixels.
I was curious about the display's range of adjustability, so I opened System Preferences and the Display settings panel, walked through the software based calibration and profiling tools to create a display setup typical to what I use at home (targets 110 CDm^2, 1.8 gamma, 5600°K white point). Set up the way I use my Thunderbolt Display 27", the display's color space is significantly larger than it seemed from digilloyd's image of the profile. Of course, it's not as large a colorspace as the device-agnostic Adobe RGB (1998) profile, but then few devices could be.
You can play with the two profiles (the native one provided by Apple and the one I created myself) using the ColorSync Utility app if you want. This zip file contains both of them ... it's very small:
iMac 5k Profiles.zip
To look at in the ColorSync Utility:
- Unzip into two files
- Open the Library folder in your account (hold down the option key and choose the Library folder from the Go menu in Finder)
- Drop the profiles into the ~/Library/ColorSync/Profiles folder
- Launch ColorSync Utility
- Click on Profiles
- Open the User section
- Click on iMac and iMac Calibrated to inspect the profile in the detail pane.
Remember that this is a three-dimensional map and you can rotate and view it from all angles..
Having fooled with one for a bit now and seen that I can calibrate it to my usual target configuration, I still don't have much interest in owning one. The ultra high rez screen is simply a bit too much overkill for my needs. It is nice and crisp for reading, though.
enjoy,
G
I was curious about the display's range of adjustability, so I opened System Preferences and the Display settings panel, walked through the software based calibration and profiling tools to create a display setup typical to what I use at home (targets 110 CDm^2, 1.8 gamma, 5600°K white point). Set up the way I use my Thunderbolt Display 27", the display's color space is significantly larger than it seemed from digilloyd's image of the profile. Of course, it's not as large a colorspace as the device-agnostic Adobe RGB (1998) profile, but then few devices could be.
You can play with the two profiles (the native one provided by Apple and the one I created myself) using the ColorSync Utility app if you want. This zip file contains both of them ... it's very small:
iMac 5k Profiles.zip
To look at in the ColorSync Utility:
- Unzip into two files
- Open the Library folder in your account (hold down the option key and choose the Library folder from the Go menu in Finder)
- Drop the profiles into the ~/Library/ColorSync/Profiles folder
- Launch ColorSync Utility
- Click on Profiles
- Open the User section
- Click on iMac and iMac Calibrated to inspect the profile in the detail pane.
Remember that this is a three-dimensional map and you can rotate and view it from all angles..
Having fooled with one for a bit now and seen that I can calibrate it to my usual target configuration, I still don't have much interest in owning one. The ultra high rez screen is simply a bit too much overkill for my needs. It is nice and crisp for reading, though.
enjoy,
G
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
This is the one I been using for a bit now. Its 1250 or so with the Spectroview puck and software. Highly recommend this calibration kit. It's basically 300 more than the current T bolt not sure the new price for the 5k though.
NEC PA272W-BK-SV LED Backlit Wide Gamut LCD Desktop PA272W-BK-SV
NEC PA272W-BK-SV LED Backlit Wide Gamut LCD Desktop PA272W-BK-SV
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Specs. Read the SRGB number . Like I have been saying all along hard cold facts nothing more. Regardless of back, camera or even your point and shoot your looking at the full color space of your camera when shooting raw.
The PA272W-BK-SV LED Backlit Wide Gamut LCD Desktop Monitor with SpectraViewII (Black) from NEC comes equipped with the NEC SpectraViewII color calibration tool and features enhanced color accuracy covering 99.3% of the AdobeRGB color space, 94.8% of the NTSC color space, and 146.4% of the sRGB color space. With a variety of input connectors including DisplayPort, Mini DisplayPort, HDMI, and DVI-D Dual-Link, you can plug this monitor into a variety of computers. You can also connect USB-compatible peripheral devices to either of the two upstream or three downstream USB ports.
The PA272W-BK-SV LED Backlit Wide Gamut LCD Desktop Monitor with SpectraViewII (Black) from NEC comes equipped with the NEC SpectraViewII color calibration tool and features enhanced color accuracy covering 99.3% of the AdobeRGB color space, 94.8% of the NTSC color space, and 146.4% of the sRGB color space. With a variety of input connectors including DisplayPort, Mini DisplayPort, HDMI, and DVI-D Dual-Link, you can plug this monitor into a variety of computers. You can also connect USB-compatible peripheral devices to either of the two upstream or three downstream USB ports.
Godfrey
Well-known member
It's obvious that the iMac Retina Display is not for you, Guy. It's not really for me either, I see no point to it for what I do.
The nattering on about technology that digilloyd does is of very little relevance to 99% of photographic pursuits. If you enjoy it, by all means go forth and keep enjoying. But whether the calibration done by the Xrite or Spyder on an Apple (or any other) display is "faux" or not is completely irrelevant if it nets the results that a photographer needs to produce consistent, top notch prints. I assure you that it has worked very well for me and for the many thousands of others who use these systems daily.
To get back to brad's original comment: yes indeed, there are sure a lot of pixels on a 5K display. A full resolution E-1 image file looks like a thumbnail on that screen, a 12-Mpixel original out of the E-5 almost fills it, and the X/E-M1/A7/M9 files need a little subsampling to fit. All look great.
G
The nattering on about technology that digilloyd does is of very little relevance to 99% of photographic pursuits. If you enjoy it, by all means go forth and keep enjoying. But whether the calibration done by the Xrite or Spyder on an Apple (or any other) display is "faux" or not is completely irrelevant if it nets the results that a photographer needs to produce consistent, top notch prints. I assure you that it has worked very well for me and for the many thousands of others who use these systems daily.
To get back to brad's original comment: yes indeed, there are sure a lot of pixels on a 5K display. A full resolution E-1 image file looks like a thumbnail on that screen, a 12-Mpixel original out of the E-5 almost fills it, and the X/E-M1/A7/M9 files need a little subsampling to fit. All look great.
G
stephengilbert
Active member
Nattering about technology is irrelevant?
That's amusing.
That's amusing.
Godfrey
Well-known member
Indeed it is ... Few of these hotly debated technology discussions have any significant impact on the making of photographs.
It's the same thing I read in the high-end audiophile literature: Most of the hot debates circle around technology issues that one person in ten thousand would ever be concerned about; very few of them have anything to do with creating or listening to ...enjoying!... music.
G
Putting aside the "hotly debated" part of all this, there is something to be said about establishing some reasonably high set of technical standards between the various visual components of photography today.
IMO, these standards should universally adhere to a higher purpose so that one component doesn't become the weak link in an imaging chain as things move forward. The price for that may be the nattering techno-nerd diatribes and irritating posturing about minutia … "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" and all that.
I'm still working on old 30" Apple Cinema monitors, and just printed some work for a client shot with my S camera and A7R. Like others have mentioned, I rarely need to make a second print. YET, I can see the advantage of a wider Gamut monitor, and look forward to trying one as my Cinema's are approaching the end of their useful life cycle anyway.
I'm also looking forward to general presentations and viewing on a 5k Retina 'cause it's cool as hell.
For similar reasons I applaud the news that commercial offset printing is striving to expand the CMYK color gamut, and look forward to the day when it is common and readably available in a standardized manner that commercial photographers, art directors and designers can take advantage of on routine basis, not just as a counterpoint in a web debate. I have an ad due Monday and the printer isn't on-line with anything close to an expanded CMYK gamut. That is a real world fact that affects what I do now, not what may be.
- Marc
IMO, these standards should universally adhere to a higher purpose so that one component doesn't become the weak link in an imaging chain as things move forward. The price for that may be the nattering techno-nerd diatribes and irritating posturing about minutia … "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" and all that.
I'm still working on old 30" Apple Cinema monitors, and just printed some work for a client shot with my S camera and A7R. Like others have mentioned, I rarely need to make a second print. YET, I can see the advantage of a wider Gamut monitor, and look forward to trying one as my Cinema's are approaching the end of their useful life cycle anyway.
I'm also looking forward to general presentations and viewing on a 5k Retina 'cause it's cool as hell.
For similar reasons I applaud the news that commercial offset printing is striving to expand the CMYK color gamut, and look forward to the day when it is common and readably available in a standardized manner that commercial photographers, art directors and designers can take advantage of on routine basis, not just as a counterpoint in a web debate. I have an ad due Monday and the printer isn't on-line with anything close to an expanded CMYK gamut. That is a real world fact that affects what I do now, not what may be.
- Marc
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Really than you are very naive in thinking almost every studio and high end advertising photographers are not using wide gamut Eizo and Nec. You want to buck industry standards than that's your gig but to sit here and constantly give out bad information to others is a disservice. Sorry your ego is being tested here but your so wrong it's almost embarrassing . There I said what I probably should not have said. Let's be very clear this is not arguing with me at all I'm just passing on what I know Pros are using in the industry and what the dealers are selling to them. Now having said all that I'm excusing myself for awhile from this forum as it's very tiring to hear what you do as a industry standard than what it actually is. Also I'm hours away from being a grandpa so this means **** to me. I apologize to other members but when I see bad info as gospel it makes me furious as that's not the type of info that you need to hear. You need to know what can be done, know your options and make informed decisions. I'm sorry Godfrey your comments are not doing that and that's what this forum is about. With that I'm done. This not about my opinion but facts you can't seem to accept.
"Describing Apple's 5K iMac display without profanity just doesn't do it justice...
From the moment we unpacked this thing, plopped it on our desk, and started messing with it, the iMac with Retina Display drew a crowd. It turned the heads of everyone in the DT offices, from seasoned tech heads to novices who couldn’t tell a USB 3.0 port from a porthole. That speaks volumes about how lusciously vivid images and videos look on Apple’s newest iMac."
Apple iMac with Retina Display review | Digital Trends
Reviews are coming fast now and my own 5k is about to leave shanghai
From the moment we unpacked this thing, plopped it on our desk, and started messing with it, the iMac with Retina Display drew a crowd. It turned the heads of everyone in the DT offices, from seasoned tech heads to novices who couldn’t tell a USB 3.0 port from a porthole. That speaks volumes about how lusciously vivid images and videos look on Apple’s newest iMac."
Apple iMac with Retina Display review | Digital Trends
Reviews are coming fast now and my own 5k is about to leave shanghai
PeterA
Well-known member
I've been using a 15inch retina display macbookpro or whatever they are called - because it is very easy on the eye and does make stuff look very nice. For prints which need calibration to a bunch of profiles I use for stuff that requires as good as you can get - I use an NEC monitor which sits plugged into the book as a dual screen..
This is hardly rocket science -just makes it easier to get prints done as accurately to profiles as possible - which saves time mucking around with test prints etc. yes it is a hassle to profie your total workflow - and yes nothing is ever perfect - but l like to invest time into making things easier for me...and people who have to print some of my larger work for exhibitions.
This new Imac looks very interesting - larger retina screen even easier on the eyes - makes photos shine too. Pete will definitely get one - but the NEC will stay next to it.
Congratulations on your grandfatherdom Guy - all the best to your daughter.
This is hardly rocket science -just makes it easier to get prints done as accurately to profiles as possible - which saves time mucking around with test prints etc. yes it is a hassle to profie your total workflow - and yes nothing is ever perfect - but l like to invest time into making things easier for me...and people who have to print some of my larger work for exhibitions.
This new Imac looks very interesting - larger retina screen even easier on the eyes - makes photos shine too. Pete will definitely get one - but the NEC will stay next to it.
Congratulations on your grandfatherdom Guy - all the best to your daughter.
+1
Hi Peter!
Hey Guy, looking forward to seeing pics from a proud Grandpapa! :thumbs:
All the beat,
- Marc
bradhusick
Active member
Here's an image from Gizmodo showing a photo at 100% zoom on the old iMac (right) and the new Retina iMac (left).
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