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Lightroom and other Raw Developers

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
This is really a workflow question. Right now I enjoy Lightroom as a single do everything solution. I follow the book ...import to disk and backup,import to lightroom,edit and make selections,develop and process the best (maybe 10%) and output to web based collections or print on Epson R2400. I know not much imagination here but I have a well managed library of 20K images and I can always go back and redo the processing( I get smarter a little at a time). But I know I should be using other raw processors to get optimum results..even straight CS3 beats my workflow and I would like to use C1 and CaptureNX(for my D3 files). So where does it best fit...I would think as early as possible and before I import to Lightroom. Does that make sense?
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I think nowadays you need to view the process as about 5 or 6 distinct steps: 1) importing/browsing, 2) cataloging, 3) raw conversion, 4) global adjustments, 5) local adjustments and if you do it, 6) Printing. Once you've settled on these, the problem is none of the programs available do all of them, let alone all of them well. So, a modern workflow may require the use of three or more pieces of specialized software to fully optimize the final image.

The advantage I see to LR is it does the first 4 of these very well, and while it may not be the best raw converter, it is good enough on most images for my purposes. I understand other folks may require otherwise, but there is no reason other pieces of software can't be slotted in the appropriate step to obtain what they feel are better results -- worst case it just means giving up a bit of efficiency to get that result.

FWIW, efficiency is the main reason Guy and I spend so much time helping folks get the most out of LightRoom on our workshops.

Cheers,
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Jack That is a helpful framework and likewise I find Lightroom excellent for most practical uses. With the DMR and the M8 I can get the results I would like without using really anything else. However with the Nikon .NIF files I would like to use Capture NX for the raw conversions. The part that is confusing me is do I do this before or after editing. Right now the big time waster for me is editing ..going from a shoot of say 1000 images to the 100 worth working on and then the 25 worth showing. I guess I could just do everything in Lightroom until I have the 100 identified and then reprocess the raws . The other alternative would appear to be converting everything in Capture NX and then import to Lightroom but this would make fine tuning another round trip. Am I confusing the raw conversion with the subsequent workflow steps? :confused:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
You're not confusing anything --- it is the rub of the raw workflow, both options you present are viable for different reasons.

Personally, since raw converters seem to continually improve, I would choose the former: browse, catalog and edit in LR, convert using the best converter for your files AT THE TIME (in your case, Capture NX). IOW a basic LR workflow inserting a raw converter to optimize the raw conversion output, then into CS3 for both global and local adjustments. (Or even back to LR for global-only adjustments.) This way the workflow is most consistent regardless of camera used to generate the file.

The other side of the coin is that for web output, the raw converter in LR is probably more than adequate since the full level of detail is mostly lost on the web downsize anyway. If you agree with that, then you'd only need/want to use Capture NX for images destined to PRINT, thus using the most complex workflow on the fewest images: LR to Capture NX to CS3 to Printing program. I'd of course then have sub-libraries in LR for my print images.

Cheers,
 

robsteve

Subscriber
LR to Capture NX to CS3 to Printing program. I'd of course then have sub-libraries in LR for my print images.

Cheers,
Jack:

Is there a way for make Lightroom hand off the RAW file to another RAW developer without Lightroom making the raw conversion?
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Not that I know of. I move them to a separate folder, then open that folder with the raw converter.
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Not that I know of. I move them to a separate folder, then open that folder with the raw converter.
I was thinking about how RAW files can be opened in Photoshop, but I don't think there are any other RAW programs that can accept a single file from another program.

Are there any RAW developers other than Photoshop that will allow a RAW file to transfered to them from another program? For example, when I used PhotoMechanic to sort, I hit CRL-E and the RAW file was sent to Photoshop, Photoshop then opened and the ACR window appeared. I can't think of any other RAW program that would just accept a file from another program, rather than having to start the RAW program and open a folder with the files in it.

Robert
 

harmsr

Workshop Member
Both Aperture and Lightroom allow you to use an external editor from within, but they output to it an already developed RAW file in the form of a Tiff or PSD.

I also really wish that I could use Capture NX to develop the RAW file on the D3 files from within Lightroom or Aperture, but alas that is not possible.

Ray
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Not that I know of. I move them to a separate folder, then open that folder with the raw converter.
Is there anyway you can bring them back into Lightroom for purposes of DAM(digital asset management). It would be great to at least be able include the folder within the same shoot or collection catalogs.
 
P

poboxnyc

Guest
Re: Digital Asset Management. Does anyone use IView Media Pro anymore or has Lightroom taken over as the asset management software of choice?

thanks
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
First off, I am not a "power user" of LR. I use it as a sophisticated raw converter and batch processor. I do not use it as a library because I do not like its conventions --- and my own conventions allow me to easily find most any images I want whenever I need to find them. So now we're getting into what I dislike about LR: It wants to be smarter than us as users and does NOT let us decide where to put what versions of an image on the fly...

In short, here is the way I work around it. I load my files as shot onto my image drive using "Job" folders I create directly -- my images are arranged as YEAR>JOBNAME>DATE. Inside the Jobname sub-folder, I will make a "JOBNAME_Print" Subfolder where I keep working print copies. I export LR-adjusted images to CS3 for print prep, then save those files inside that print subfolder. Then at future editing or printing sessions, I simply browse to them directly from the OS browser or use Bridge (yuck) to go to them, then open them in CS3 again for revised edits. I have NOT found anyway to *conveniently* manage this situation within LR and leave them in a similar folder structure on the drive separate from the LR library...

In short, LR DAM doesn't work well for my uses when faced with multiple re-work print versions of an original file, so I simply don't use it for that...
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Jack I believe I do exactly what you are doing ....with Lightroom. My folder structure is year/subject/date and sometimes for higher volume I add month. So as an example its 2008 / 2008 Spring Training/ 2008-02-25 Roger Dean Stadium. Since I know spring training will be probably 30-40 cards of say 100-200 images . It will get a folder of its own. Now by importing the 2008 Spring Training Folder ..I get only the new cards added to the Library. All the raw images will be on an external drive in the 2008 Spring Training Folder. I can use Lightroom or not because the raw stuff is organized (similar to your method) . Now lets say I want to save the best 50 images for use on the web..I just add a small jpeg folder to the 2008 Spring Training Folder. Could follow similar logic for prints or my zenfolio account where I use larger jpegs. I use collections to in essence tag the best and ratings . So for example say I take 4000 images of Spring Training. I select the best 10% for a collection thats 400 ..from these I might take it down to a further 10% or 40. These I might add to my bloated portfolio. After that its configure to order....as I get smarter ....I go back to the 40 and sometimes rework the conversion and maybe further reduce it to say 25. Lots of ways to use collections then flags , ratings and colors to look at the best. This all works great and yet I could bag it all because the raws are organized the same way . Using photoshop seems pretty seamless..because I can export to photoshop and then bring the image back into the Lightroom structure. Sorry I know thats long winded! But I would really like to be able to process just the 400 in say Capture One or Capture NX or maybe even Lightzone and still fold them back into the Lightroom database.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Using photoshop seems pretty seamless..because I can export to photoshop and then bring the image back into the Lightroom structure.
I get it totally. But where do the CS3-manipulated images actually land when you bring them "back into LR" from CS3, and what steps do you have to take to physically open them in a 3rd party program, like a RIP?
 
P

poboxnyc

Guest
First off, I am not a "power user" of LR. I use it as a sophisticated raw converter and batch processor. I do not use it as a library because I do not like its conventions --- and my own conventions allow me to easily find most any images I want whenever I need to find them. So now we're getting into what I dislike about LR: It wants to be smarter than us as users and does NOT let us decide where to put what versions of an image on the fly...

Jack,

This is a sensible, simple and elegant solution. I've been trying to figure out how to make LR work for me for asset management and it seems too cumbersome--too complex to troubleshoot --- so was Iview as far a I am concerned. Been using a solution similar to yours-- not even as sophisticated --- basically Job bags by year backed up on a hardware raid. The simplicity of this actually adds to veratility and ease of use. It's more reassuring as I can at least trace the logic if something goes wrong.

I thought I was missing the boat by doing it this way. Thanks for the reassurance.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I get it totally. But where do the CS3-manipulated images actually land when you bring them "back into LR" from CS3, and what steps do you have to take to physically open them in a 3rd party program, like a RIP?
You got me:eek: I have been beating on the front end to stay organized and improve my editing. This for me is where all the wasted time occurs. While I am admiring images that will get pitched ...I am slowed from really working on the right ones. If I can get it down to only really processing the best 10% and optimizing the best 1% . I think once you move from the raw format to say a TIFF or a PSD ..you will no longer automatically process the file. I will try some tests. If you can put it back in the catalog ..you can do whatever you want form there on ..including additional processing. Organization however is I believe dependent on the how you catagorize it. I need to try a few things.
 

Terry

New member
OK,
So here is where I am confused. When you (Jack or Glen) open Lightroom what if anything is in your Library? Since Lightroom wants to keep copies in a particular folder are they residing in your original file structure and the folder where Lightroom wants to see the files? Don't answer just yet...as I want to see if the below is your workflow.

If I understand it correctly then:
1. Copy files to a hard drive in shoot folders.
2. Use something to decide what you like - perhaps LR
3. If LR wasn't used in #2 import the files you like to LR and process
4. Save LR files as 16bit TIFFs (saved where?)
5. Open files in CS3 make adjustments
6. Save web adjustments to subfolder in shoot folder
7. Save print files to subfolder in shoot folder
8. Leave processed DNG's in Lightroom

terry
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Terry:

That is my workflow, but one clarification:

When I import I use the the "import from disk" dialog, then at the dropdown, I select "Import from Current Location." In addition, my LR Library is stored on its own partition (and is backed up by Time Machine), but since I import form present location, the images stay on my image drive. Thus, all I have in my library are the data tags for the images and it's physical size stays relatively small since it contains no images.

So,

1. Copy *RAW* files to a hard drive in shoot folders.
2. Use something to decide what you like - perhaps LR *or C1 or Bridge/ACR*
3. If LR wasn't used in #2 import the files you like to LR and process *but import from base location*
4. Save LR files as 16bit TIFFs (saved where?)
*You don't save a LR File as a 16-bit tiff, you EXPORT them as one and save a copy of the adjustments in a stack (or not). So here I export them to CS3 as 16bit tiffs, work on them and then save an actual layered tiff or PSD, or web jpeg back to the original shoot folder, but usually with an identifying name and usually in an identifying sub-folder within the shoot folder, one for web versions and another for print versions.*
5. Open files in CS3 make adjustments
6. Save web adjustments to subfolder in shoot folder
7. Save print files to subfolder in shoot folder
8. Leave processed DNG's in Lightroom. *To clarify, the DNG's are not stored in LR as processed files --- they are rather stored in LR as the original raw with a "data tag" for the adjustments when you export. In this fashion, LR does not bloat, but simply stores a data tag with the adjustments for the specific RAW file it's associated with. It however does generate a preview with the adjustments, which you can save in a stack with the original or not.*

So, the cluge with LR is that since I am putting a "new" processed file back in the original folder on my original image drive (leaving the raw intact), and since my LR library was not directly involved in that operation, I will need to re-import the images on that drive to the appropriate folder in LR AFTER EVERY CS3 SESSION to browse them in LR as processed with the new name... The next problem is if I just use the "save" command in CS3 and not the "Save As", CS3 assumes I want the revised file saved by LR and LR will save it by default into a folder on the LIBRARY drive and NOT on the original image drive in the shoot folder...

So, this is why I'm asking others what they do, as I have not figured out any other workaround for this... The LR workaround is to let LR library reside with your raw files on your main image drives and let LR manage the CS3 saves, but I'm not comfortable letting LR mess with my original images (You can delete a group of images in LR with a single back-space if the images are selected, and there is no warning that happened!) Some folks keep one drive with only original RAW files, then do an import with copy of all of those to a dedicated LR drive, which then LR will library directly. This gives them a safe "back-up" set of originals on a a separate drive. My problem with that is I don't trust the way LR manages files, so it requires one more complete set of duplicate image drives for all my images, unless I count the original raw file drive as my redundant back-up copy. But then of course it does not have all the LR library info and if the LR drive fails, I need to have a backed-up library database somewhere else. I could probably just back them up to a subfolder on that original image drive, which is probably a reasonable alternative at present even for me... Maybe in another 6 months when I'm more comfortable with it this is what I'll do :)
 

Terry

New member
Thanks,
I really need to get this all in order....I was only really running with my main computer hard drive and one external for backup. Now with Time Capsule about to be released (need it for laptops), I'm rethinking my whole set-up....

To take things one step further. When you were in Moab where did you copy your files to? Laptop HD and External (for safety)? Then when you got home did you copy the folder (including subfolders for images you worked on) from your laptop to your main image drive? What did you do with the stuff that was sitting in Lightroom?

Sorry for all the questions but this is so helpful. My methodology was working out fine for me but as I said now that I am putting in a new laptop and back up regimen I need to take a second look at this.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I had a total of 10 SD cards in Moab. After each days shoot, I copied the files onto my Laptop, but did NOT erase the cards, simply put new ones in when one filled up. Thus when I got home, I had all the original cards and complete set of back-ups on the Laptop drive. I did not use up all 10 cards in Moab, however, on a longer shoot I would have. That is why I have the 100G external I linked to in the other thread -- plus it makes for faster transfer to the desktop when I get home, AND the file structure is already done.
 
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