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Thread: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

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    Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Just upgraded to 2.1.3 and it seems Aperture is rendering my images differently.

    This is pretty bad, as I've spent a lot of time on some of them. I really hope somebody has an idea as to what's going on.

    Just maybe it has something to do with the fact that I always used the raw boost slider, i.e. pulled it down from 100%.

    Here's an example.

    This is the original rendering:



    And this is the 2.1.3 version:



    Please, do refrain for telling me you prefer the second... that's not the point here

    Oh, the camera is GRDII. It's the generic DNG conversion.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    I'm not that familiar with aperture, but I had to really study the two images to see the differences in these sample jpegs. The most obvious, and it took me awhile to find it, was in the lack of detail in the shadows. i.e., the face of the wall that appears on the left hand side about halfway up the frame. Is that what you mean?

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Thanks for looking.

    The difference is not that obvious when scrolling from one to the next. But if you swap between them (e.g. after downloading both to the desktop), it's evident that the second is quite a bit darker, overall.

    Aperture is re-rendering as I click through images. And I don't really want it re-rendering anything until I know exactly what it's doing.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    I see it as being slightly darker in the second one too. It this something to worry overly about in the short term though? Aperture doesn't do anything to your RAW file. Assuming Apple owns up to this and fixes it, Aperture should then render them "correctly". It is, however, annoying. I wonder if others are noticing this difference.

    I have Aperture (right from version 1) but I've just never warmed to it.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Well, it depends. Is it a glitch or are they changing something w/o properly notifying. It is definitely annoying, and I think this is a big deal. I mean, the on-the-fly idea ONLY makes sense if they never ever change anything w/o you authorizing the change (as they did, for example, when going from DNG 1.1 to 2.0)

    I'm somewhat perplexed as to why I can't find anything on this in the aperture support forum. Will post something there.

    Previously I had measured the grey levels of the default B&W conversion.

    The "correct" exposure of the camera would yield 60% grey. With Aperture 2.1.3 this is down to around 50%. Two stops less yielded 24% - now it's seems to be precisely 18% - is this perhaps one of the ideas behind the change?? So things look to be about a third of a stop different. (All these were measured with the raw boost at 100%.)

    Here is another example of a color photo.

    Old:



    New:


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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Not clear to be what version you updated from, but you can switch to V1 raw rendering on the "Raw Fine Tuning" section of adjustments. By default you will see "2.0" displayed - click that to change.

    Sandy

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Unfortunately, it's not that either. I upgraded from 2.something to the current version.

    Previously I had also upgraded all the photos from DNG 1.1 to DNG 2.0, and the 1.1. option is no longer available.

    This is a seriously frustrating situation. I have next to ZERO idea what is causing this. There seems to be no simple recipe to re-create the old renderings (e.g. by adjusting exposure comp, or any other single slider - what aperture is doing seems to be a more complex re-rendering). I can only make the following observations.

    1) It doesn't happen with all the files. But I can't find how aperture differentiates which to re-render and which to leave alone. Seems completely random.
    2) The DNGs from around 1.5 yers ago are never re-rendered. These are somehow different to the newer ones - I assume related to a firmware upgrade by ricoh. A "signature" of these older raws is that they have the "automatic noise reduction" option available, while for the newer ones it is greyed out

    I've wasted hours trying to figure this out, and would be happy to inflict pain on the programmer who caused it.

    However, as I can't find complaints along these lines googling, I'm inclined to think it's either a quirk or somehow my fault. It's also fallen on deaf ears in the Apple discussion forum...

    If anybody can chime in with any wisdom, or even just to confirm they are seeing nothing like this in their dng conversion, I'd be more than grateful.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by sizifo View Post
    If anybody can chime in with any wisdom, or even just to confirm they are seeing nothing like this in their dng conversion, I'd be more than grateful.
    Hi There - I wonder - is it because with the older files there was no camera support for the Ricoh, and that Apple have actually changed that support with the new update?

    Does that fit the bill?

    I still don't think that really explains why they're changing . . . this is what I put in the other post:

    Right - my unfortunate answer is that I've been using 2.1.3 for some time now, and I didn't notice what you've indicated with the DNG conversions. However, I suspect that the real truth is that once an import / wedding / holiday / party / month is done, I tend not to revisit it unless I want to use shots for a different album, and when I do that I tend to make some more adjustments, so I don't think that I would have noticed the change.

    So, I suppose the bottom line is to say 'hard luck'

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Man, that is frustrating! If you were running a MAC with Time Machine active, I'd suggest you revert to the system status that existed just prior to loading the recent Aperture update. If you're on Windows, then that's not much help.

    Have you checked all the default settings for import? Do you still have your original RAWS stored separately? I suppose it's possible (although a pita) to tweak your default settings and then re-import the files being effected. Or are the effected files versions that have been edited to something other than RAW (i.e., .tif)? If so, maybe it has something to do with the way it's rendering tiffs. Colorspace? Gamma? Just chucking things out here. Wish I could help. Good luck.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There - I wonder - is it because with the older files there was no camera support for the Ricoh, and that Apple have actually changed that support with the new update?

    Does that fit the bill?
    Thanks for the answer. It may well be some element of this transition that's causing the problem. But I can't figure out what and why? Previously I had to hack the plist file, and then the dng conversion was used. However, it is the old files that are untouched. It's only the recent incremental upgrade, causing problems with files that were originally converted with dng 2.0 .

    The one new theory I have is that it may have to do with me changing from auto WB to manually selected WB when shooting, in order to get more consistent color. This is something that roughly coincides with the affected files.

    I have one question re: this - not directly related to the conversion problems. Selecting any particular option eg: cloudy, doesn't seem to completely determine the WB, in the sense that the temp. and tint values are not the same for all photos taken with the same setting; the camera seems to be making some "intelligent" deviations from the mean. Is this the case with all cameras, or is it ricoh specific?


    Man, that is frustrating! If you were running a MAC with Time Machine active, I'd suggest you revert to the system status that existed just prior to loading the recent Aperture update. If you're on Windows, then that's not much help.

    Have you checked all the default settings for import? Do you still have your original RAWS stored separately? I suppose it's possible (although a pita) to tweak your default settings and then re-import the files being effected. Or are the effected files versions that have been edited to something other than RAW (i.e., .tif)? If so, maybe it has something to do with the way it's rendering tiffs. Colorspace? Gamma? Just chucking things out here. Wish I could help. Good luck.
    Unfortunately, it's the raws. Tifs & jpgs are untouched. I've thought of the colorspace issues, gamma, accidently turning on soft proofing, but this can't be the case since the problems are not with all, just some raws.

    I have thought of reverting to the backup. The problem is that I'd also have to revert to the old version of aperture, and probably of the raw conversion files, which are system files. Which means I'm likely to get into an even nastier mess in the future. (I don't unfortunately keep everything on Time Machine, just the home directory).

    I usually keep all the versions when editing photos. If I'm done editing something one day, I'll continue the next day by continuing from a copy. This helps me remember the thoughts I had as to why I should edit one photo this way or that way. The re-rendering messes my way of doing things in a significant way.

    Anyway, thanks for the answers. It's great to get some new ideas.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by sizifo View Post

    I have one question re: this - not directly related to the conversion problems. Selecting any particular option eg: cloudy, doesn't seem to completely determine the WB, in the sense that the temp. and tint values are not the same for all photos taken with the same setting; the camera seems to be making some "intelligent" deviations from the mean. Is this the case with all cameras, or is it ricoh specific?
    Ahhh - I've been doing lots of testing of RAW files with three different converters (Capture One, Aperture, ACR). Not ricoh, but this is something I don't fully understand - it's certainly the case that different converters will 'read' the temperature and tint values differently - not often differently within the same converter with the same conditions, but sometimes. I think it's to do with colour conversion settings in the RAW file which is read by the converter and then converted to the temperature and tint settings. So different converters (and different situations) will sometimes give different results with different settings.

    Perhaps your answer is that Aperture changed the way they interpreted the camera settings? Mind you, it might be an explanation, but it's hardly a help.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Ahhh - I've been doing lots of testing of RAW files with three different converters (Capture One, Aperture, ACR). Not ricoh, but this is something I don't fully understand - it's certainly the case that different converters will 'read' the temperature and tint values differently - not often differently within the same converter with the same conditions, but sometimes. I think it's to do with colour conversion settings in the RAW file which is read by the converter and then converted to the temperature and tint settings. So different converters (and different situations) will sometimes give different results with different settings.
    Thanks. I had been wondering about that. Just looked at the adobe DNG spec - the explanation of this black box seems to be given on pg. 67 "one or two color calibrations", FWIW.

    http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/pd...ec_1_3_0_0.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Perhaps your answer is that Aperture changed the way they interpreted the camera settings? Mind you, it might be an explanation, but it's hardly a help.
    That's right. I'm most probably going to be re PP-ing many files . If this fault is indeed due to Apple re-interpreting data it makes for a very dangerous precedent. Especially for an app aimed at pros.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    it's certainly the case that different converters will 'read' the temperature and tint values differently - not often differently within the same converter with the same conditions, but sometimes.
    In DNG files, white point is set by a "Camera Neutral" field, which specifies white in XYZ coordinates. Unfortunately, there is no standard way to get from a color to a color temperature, so different raw converters will report slightly different values. You should however see the same value consistently in each converter, assuming all the raw converter setting are the same. Otherwise something strange is going on.

    Sandy

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by sizifo View Post
    Thanks. I had been wondering about that. Just looked at the adobe DNG spec - the explanation of this black box seems to be given on pg. 67 "one or two color calibrations", FWIW.

    http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/pd...ec_1_3_0_0.pdf


    Did you read every bit to get to page 67?

    Trouble is, if you find a better way of doing something, it's difficult not to apply it?


    HI Sandy
    Quote Originally Posted by sandymc View Post
    In DNG files, white point is set by a "Camera Neutral" field, which specifies white in XYZ coordinates. Unfortunately, there is no standard way to get from a color to a color temperature, so different raw converters will report slightly different values. You should however see the same value consistently in each converter, assuming all the raw converter setting are the same. Otherwise something strange is going on.

    Sandy
    thank you so much, that really is useful information . . . we learn something every day.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I don't use Aperture on a regular basis so I can't say precisely what might happening or how to fix it. It sounds like the new version you've installed is reinterpreting the RAW edit parameters in some cases and not others, probably due to an update in the configuration tables or in the way it uses those configuration tables.

    I've seen this happen in Lightroom too. For instance, when I first obtained the Pentax K10D, I output DNGs from the camera so that LR would be able to process them. Later, when LR was updated to include the K10D native PEF file output, I noticed a lot of my previous K10D DNG edits had either lost their settings or were shifted subtly in various ways.

    All I can do to help is suggest a policy/procedure change to your workflow that can reduce your risk in the future.

    In my case, I made the policy when I started using Lightroom that once I was *finished* with a particular rendering, I would export it to a full resolution, 16bit TIFF file with ProPhoto RGB embedded. So for all the renderings that I'd finished and which had been shifted by the later update of Lightroom, I had little issue with resetting the RAW files to their defaults and starting over, if I wanted to do a different rendering. The only thing that was lost was the intermediary steps in rendering to my original finish result ... I reimported the finish work of a few affected images and then either recreated the rendering in LR or did further development of the rendering on top of the TIFF file. (It's much faster to recreate a rendering from a static, finished TIFF than to create it again with no reference to look at, and often you can do it in a fraction of the time since you know what you're trying to achieve explicitly.)

    I strongly recommend this as a policy for any work you put substantial time and effort into. You always want to be thinking "how can I minimize losses through accidents or changes of the software which interprets my editing instructions?" It consumes some additional disk space, for sure, but the risk reduction is well worth it.

    I hope you can find a simple way to recover your edits back to where you were happy with them, and consider this policy for future work.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    In my case, I made the policy when I started using Lightroom that once I was *finished* with a particular rendering, I would export it to a full resolution, 16bit TIFF file with ProPhoto RGB embedded. So for all the renderings that I'd finished and which had been shifted by the later update of Lightroom, I had little issue with resetting the RAW files to their defaults and starting over, if I wanted to do a different rendering. The only thing that was lost was the intermediary steps in rendering to my original finish result ... I reimported the finish work of a few affected images and then either recreated the rendering in LR or did further development of the rendering on top of the TIFF file. (It's much faster to recreate a rendering from a static, finished TIFF than to create it again with no reference to look at, and often you can do it in a fraction of the time since you know what you're trying to achieve explicitly.)
    Even I can't argue with that - very sensible strategy.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Even I can't argue with that - very sensible strategy.
    Yeah. This is what will be done from now on. Even though it does defy the purpose of the on-the-fly rendering idea. But with ever increasing disk space, who cares.

    >>I hope you can find a simple way to recover your edits back to where you >>>were happy with them, and consider this policy for future work.

    It seems +0.5EV and a lot of fiddling with the sliders will do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Did you read every bit to get to page 67?

    Trouble is, if you find a better way of doing something, it's difficult not to apply it?
    He he. Of course....
    Judicious use of the search function, and that bit looked like the right part.

    Even though a single setting can yield different temp and tint values, Godfrey's explanation means that all converters conforming to the specs should yield the same result. So as you say, at least some of the converters must be applying their own better ideas. Don't think there's too much harm in that, it's just I assumed they'd never change the algorithms without letting you OK the improvement, and giving you the option to stay with the old.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by sizifo View Post
    Yeah. This is what will be done from now on. Even though it does defy the purpose of the on-the-fly rendering idea. But with ever increasing disk space, who cares.
    For me, the notion behind 'on the fly' rendering with Aperture and Lightroom is for developing and rendering images, minimizing disk space usage in temp files and such. "Finished" work should never be left solely in this state.

    The file and workflow organization I teach for Lightroom is based on a two-catalog strategy: a directory tree for in-progress work pointed to by the default catalog and a directory tree for the completed work pointed to by a "finished works" catalog.

    Image files flow into the system into the in-progress tree, go through LR (and optionally other tools like PS, etc), and finished renderings are exported into the completed directory tree when done, organized as client and personal projects. The default catalog is where you do most of your work, particularly the rendering.

    When the work is completed, the "completed_work" keyword is added to it so it's instantly findable, and exported. The completed work is then imported into the finished work catalog so you can continue to find and manage it, organize into collections and sets for various purposes, but NO further image rendering is done there.

    It's turned out to be a very efficient system, and the disk space savings remain very good over my earlier all-photoshop workflow. Now more than 40% of my annual archive growth is on completed work rather than what used to be a huge proliferation of temp and intermediate "in progress" working files.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Sounds to me like you had a custom raw fine tuning preset which you were using with the previous Aperture version and this was set as a camera default when importing images. My theory is somehow this preset has become deleted or corrupted when you updated Aperture, hence it's re rendering any file with the current camera default for the files it can't find the custom setting for.

    I had this once with a custom preset which I deleted it caused all sorts of problems on an update, it was a long time ago and can't quite remember.
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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Thanks for your thoughts. Don't think it was that either (again). I always imported using the custom presets, and then went from there, individually adjusting raw sharpness and "boost" for photos I thought interesting enough to work on.

    In any case, I'm now resigned to the fact that there seems to be no easy fix, and am re-adjusting manually. Will definitely heed the advice here, and convert to tiff.

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Hi, just read all the thread, And yes , these things are frustrating ,
    Just an idea , I understand you are comparing jpgs with the RAW , could it be the the jpg conversion what changed, had you compared your jpgs with the RAWs on your previous version.

    cheers

    James

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    and I must say there is nothing better for driving to madness than start comparing softwre and raw converters .

    Not applying to this case , that is a technical question , I think too , it even depends in the mood you are that day , so what I did is find the one I'm more comfortable , because I really think that if you know where you want to get , you can do it with any of the "best " software out there .

    Cheers


    james

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    Re: Panic! Aperture 2.1.3 messing up my images

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesmd View Post
    Hi, just read all the thread, And yes , these things are frustrating ,
    Just an idea , I understand you are comparing jpgs with the RAW , could it be the the jpg conversion what changed, had you compared your jpgs with the RAWs on your previous version.

    cheers

    James
    Hi,

    I had jpegs and tiffs lying around from exports prior to the Aperture upgrade. I was comparing these to the exports after the upgrade. These are near identical to what's rendered on screen. It's certainly not jpeg specific. This is a good thing - it would be an endless mess if aperture decided to render different formats differently (up to compression artifacts of course).

    In addition, as you click through the thumbnails in Aperture, you could see the photos getting re-rendered. The rendering of some, but not all was changed.

    One can only conclude that the way aperture interprets the raw data has changed.

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