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Thread: C1 pro or not?

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    C1 pro or not?

    Hi

    C1 Pro seems to be flavour of the month around here, but it ain't cheap. There is a non-pro version, but I can't find out what the differences are. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

    Thanks
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    this might help

    Hi Robert - I think there's a cheap upgrade if you ever had an M8 version? Basically pro is more configurable, has multi monitor support and has some extra goodies (like lens correction).

    There isn't really a great deal missing from the non-pro version other than that. I still think though that it's a step back from Lightroom and Aperture in terms of the workflow . .. even if the 'conversions' are better

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    "Conversions?" I agree that LR is easier to use, but dismissing C1's superior conversions is like saying that the negatives aren't that good, but I can always find them.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Conversions?" I agree that LR is easier to use, but dismissing C1's superior conversions is like saying that the negatives aren't that good, but I can always find them.


    But with Aperture the negatives ARE that good - I'm not dismissing C1's 'superior conversions' - I even acknowledged them. But as Marc would emphasise, if you have a wedding to do, with 800 shots to deal with in expensive time . . . then 'almost the best' can be good enough.

    Otherwise, we'd be shooting everything with 8X10 film (well, it is the best isn't it).

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    LR is great for shots of people where you don't want to see all the detail your camera is capable of. ( Okay, I already feel the heat!)
    Jack
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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Thanks for the info.

    If it weren't for you lot, I'd be happy with Lightroom -- simple, easy -- KISS.
    But if C1 is really so good, then I might process my 'selects' with it -- choosing them from LR.

    And at my age, any help with the wrinklies is welcome.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    I guess if you can argue that the price of a 28 cron is worth it, then you must be willing to admit that you're chasing some pretty fine distinctions in terms of image quality.

    And no doubt, if you're on the clock with 800 images to sort and process for a fee-for-service event, then LR or Aperture can certainly be good enough. Maybe even the best tool for the job. But jeez, if you're not, and you're happy to get even ONE winner out of 800 shots (like me) why cut such a (relatively) cheap corner?

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Robert,

    As I recall, you can download C1 for a 30 day trial. If you have some free time, I'd suggest trying it. I still use Lightroom, but think C1 produces better conversions. I may proceed to make them worse, but I like to know I'm starting with the best I can get.

    Steve

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    Hi

    C1 Pro seems to be flavour of the month around here, but it ain't cheap. There is a non-pro version, but I can't find out what the differences are. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

    Thanks
    Differences between Capture One and Capture One Pro.

    That's a pretty comprehensive list we put together.



    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    this might help
    I still think though that it's a step back from Lightroom and Aperture in terms of the workflow . .. even if the 'conversions' are better
    LightRoom is definitely easier to learn (especially if you already know other Adobe products). However if you learn all the shortcuts/tricks/tips it is faster than LR. This is shown by the large (probably majority) share of high-end Digital Techs who use it in on location situations which require speed and stability more than quality of conversions.

    We have tutoring-style online screen-sharing Capture One classes which step you through both the basics (in the intro class) and the truly advanced (in the advanced class). You might want to sign up for one.


    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    And no doubt, if you're on the clock with 800 images to sort and process for a fee-for-service event, then LR or Aperture can certainly be good enough. Maybe even the best tool for the job. But jeez, if you're not, and you're happy to get even ONE winner out of 800 shots (like me) why cut such a (relatively) cheap corner?
    I truly challenge anyone to do a start-to-finish edit of a huge shoot in any program faster than I can do so with Capture One. I'll happily admit that it took me several weeks of heavy usage before I was this adept (though the basics took only a few hours to learn). With the proper application of the customization of the program (screen layout and keyboards) I can go through the process very fast. Of note are the very fast methods of comparing both zoom-to-fit and 100% views of 2+ images; the keyboard shortcuts for rating images, select by rating, move-to "selects" folder, and copy-paste adjustments, and keyboard-based adjustments to exposure/contrast/saturation/WB.

    I shoot weddings with 800-1200 images and have done this process start-to-finish in LR, Aperture, and C1 with a high-to-very-high level of expertise in each program. Nothing has been as fast for me as C1. All three programs have great features and I'm sure we all wish we could combine the best of each; but it is, in my opinion, completely untrue that C1 is not well setup for large edits.

    It is absolutely true that LR has more After-Edit features such as a printing module and more power web module. It is also true that LR has much better key-wording/cataloging options. In my workflow neither of those two advantages would help me much.

    You know those guys that can play mind-sweeper really fast? It's half practice, and half someone showing you all the quick tips/tricks.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Robert,

    As I recall, you can download C1 for a 30 day trial. If you have some free time, I'd suggest trying it. I still use Lightroom, but think C1 produces better conversions. I may proceed to make them worse, but I like to know I'm starting with the best I can get.

    Steve
    Just make sure that when you install the trial that you select "Capture One Pro" after the "Try" dialogue. The default is "Try: Capture One".

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 31st July 2009 at 10:52.

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    dmcnickle
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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Thanks for the list of differences between C1 and C1 Pro. I am on the fence about C1 Pro because of the cost and couldn't find a list of differences on the website.

    Are there any upcoming web-seminars? Those listed are already past. Is there a video of the web-seminar that can be purchased?

    Thanks for the tip about how to select the trial of C1 and C1 Pro. I see the difference now when I select Capture One Pro in trial.

    -Denise

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Doug, thanks for the help and advice.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmcnickle View Post
    Thanks for the list of differences between C1 and C1 Pro. I am on the fence about C1 Pro because of the cost and couldn't find a list of differences on the website.

    Are there any upcoming web-seminars? Those listed are already past. Is there a video of the web-seminar that can be purchased?

    Thanks for the tip about how to select the trial of C1 and C1 Pro. I see the difference now when I select Capture One Pro in trial.

    -Denise
    I just updated the dates: next classes are September 15, 22, and 29 (Intro, Transitioning, and Masters classes respectively).

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...e-web-seminar/

    This is, in my 100% biased opinion, the best way to learn Capture One. I explain on the conference call what I am going to do, then (via screen sharing) you see me do it, and you can ask questions.

    We do not record or distribute this material in any other form than live attendance.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    If you are on a Mac, Raw Developer may also be something to consider. It is about the price of C1, but the tool set is closer to, and in some cases surpasses Capture One Pro when you are looking just at quality of raw conversions. I am debating between those two right now and the images that I really take the time to work on are unquestionably better with RD, but I can get an acceptable image instantly with C1. If I had the funds I would get C1 Pro and never look back.

    I'm trying to figure out which is better between C1 and RD right now. What I am finding is that I can get better conversions with RD, but can get most of the way there very quickly with C1. I have been running tests between them and accidentally lost the files and had to redo the test of about 100 pretty difficult images. When I realized this I was I so annoyed and really couldn't stomach the thought of taking the time to redo the images in RD, but redoing them in C1 didn't seem like that big a deal. That seemed pretty telling. As Jono pointed out, everyone needs to decide for themselves at what point it is "good enough."

    The other advantage to C1 is you can start with the plain version and upgrade to the Pro version at any time for the cost difference. I think that's pretty cool.

    Regarding Doug's claim about C1 speed, I have experience in Lightroom and ACR working on tens of thousands of images on deadline and consider myself pretty proficient with the Adobe workflow. With just a couple thousand images experience with C1, I would say that I am at least as fast on it, and it absolutely flies on my lowly Macbook, making field work a real possibility.

    You need to understand what C1 is and what it is not. It is more than just a raw processor, but far less than a do-it-all program like Lightroom. If you are using C1, you still need to pair it with some other app for DAM.

    I really wanted to like Aperture after all of Jono's comments, but neither my Macbook nor my aging (antique?) desktop have the power to run it. Lightroom runs ok, but not great, but I work pretty slowly on Lightroom on anything less than about a 24" monitor.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    If you are on a Mac, Raw Developer may also be something to consider. It is about the price of C1, but the tool set is closer to, and in some cases surpasses Capture One Pro when you are looking just at quality of raw conversions. I am debating between those two right now and the images that I really take the time to work on are unquestionably better with RD, but I can get an acceptable image instantly with C1. If I had the funds I would get C1 Pro and never look back.
    I'd concur with this. Irrident Digital's Raw Developer is an absolute masterpiece of conversation software. Brian Griffith is the developer and the man is a genius. The software is definitely geared towards refining a single image to it's absolute maximum. It has dozens of parameters and image tweaks that are not in any other software (and which often have arbitrary/mathematical descriptions which are hard even for me to fully understand). RD is pretty much useless (by design - it was not meant for this purpose) at editing down a shoot, or managing anything more than a small handful of images.

    Ideally you would have both RD and C1 Pro and reserve RD for the once-in-a-while you have an image which is giving you trouble in C1 Pro, or for that once-in-a-lifetime masterpiece which you want to tweak to it's absolute maximum (even if it takes you an order of magnitude more time). Of course not everyone can plop down $$$ for RD, C1, LR, and others like Helicon Focus all at the same time (plus all of their long-term paid upgrades). In this vein C1 will handle a lot more tasks and do so a lot faster than RD.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Irrident Digital's Raw Developer is an absolute masterpiece of conversation software. ... The software is definitely geared towards refining a single image to it's absolute maximum. It has dozens of parameters and image tweaks that are not in any other software
    At the risk of hijacking the thread, what I haven't quite worked out is where RD really fits in. I have to disagree with your point about it being for once in a lifetime images, because unless you are using the software regularly, I find it unlikely that you will know it well enough to get much benefit from a once in a lifetime image.

    To me it's value would come from being able to get an image to a print-ready state without Photoshop, and I'm not convinced you can. If I can skip Photoshop, that is a lot of speed gained.

    I'm willing to count RD out yet as I was able to develop a very fast and efficient workflow around Flex Color for the DMR, so anything is possible. Besides, I still have a little time left on my C1 demo, but if I had to pick today, I would go with C1.

    Please note that my comments are relative to the Sony A900. I think part of my frustration with C1 is the profile is not really optimized. If I was working with a better profile, my view could be very different.

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_Green View Post
    Please note that my comments are relative to the Sony A900. I think part of my frustration with C1 is the profile is not really optimized. If I was working with a better profile, my view could be very different.
    Very true. I was able to shoot the A900 in the 2009 GetDPI Arizona Workshop and I found that (for me) best results were achieved by setting the curve to linear, turn off noise reduction, increase the radius of sharpening, add a touch of clarity, and use the Color Editor to make a few minor tweaks to the color profile. Fortunately I only had to do this once and save it as a "style" (pro feature only) and then I could apply it in seconds to 1 or all of the A900 files in a folder. I keep pestering them to add a "apply style" to the CF card import to remove the need to do this, and I am optimistic they will do so at some point.

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    dmcnickle
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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Very true. I was able to shoot the A900 in the 2009 GetDPI Arizona Workshop and I found that (for me) best results were achieved by setting the curve to linear, turn off noise reduction, increase the radius of sharpening, add a touch of clarity, and use the Color Editor to make a few minor tweaks to the color profile. Fortunately I only had to do this once and save it as a "style" (pro feature only) and then I could apply it in seconds to 1 or all of the A900 files in a folder. I keep pestering them to add a "apply style" to the CF card import to remove the need to do this, and I am optimistic they will do so at some point.
    You really found the best results were achieved when setting the curve to linear? I read this advice several times and didn't really like the results on my A900 raw images. Granted I am very new to the A900. I have only had it a few weeks. But when I was looking at C1Pro with some of my images from Moab, I thought the images looked darker and really lacked something. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

    Also, a general question I have about C1Pro that I can't find the answer to: Can I set the black point and white point? Or can I boost the blacks in C1Pro?

    I am coming from a Nikon D700 and have used Capture NX2 for my raw converter. At times I would set the white point and black point or boost blacks in Capture NX2. I can't seem to figure out how to do that in C1Pro. I did look at some of the tutorials on the PhaseOne website but the ones for C1Pro seem to be outdated because some of the screen shots don't look like the latest version that I am trying out.

    Thanks for the help.
    Denise

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmcnickle View Post
    You really found the best results were achieved when setting the curve to linear?
    the standard filmcurves boost the highlights very much; the trick with the linear filmcurve is to get basically a smoother image but of course you still have to adjust it with a curve and/or levels.
    Also, a general question I have about C1Pro that I can't find the answer to: Can I set the black point and white point? Or can I boost the blacks in C1Pro?
    both yes

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    I tend to use the "Linear" film curve setting more often than not as well.

    But it occurred to me after reading these last few thread entries, that I look at C1 as the first step of processing and not the complete or only step. In other words, I never output directly from C1, instead I have it set to open the .tif file immediately in PS4. So I have discovered my own favorite settings (including the linear film curve) that I know will provide a good base for the things I like to do in PS.

    That's a personal preference or maybe just a habit. I think C1 is easily capable of producing finished files.

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    dmcnickle
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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    the standard filmcurves boost the highlights very much; the trick with the linear filmcurve is to get basically a smoother image but of course you still have to adjust it with a curve and/or levels.

    both yes
    How can I boost the blacks and/or set the black/white point? I can't seem to figure it out. My brain is not working well with C1Pro this week.

    Thanks
    Denise

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    I do it through the levels panel. This way I am directly adjusting the histogram, compared with Adobe where you are adjusting a slider and watching the histogram. If you have the /!\ button selected to warn about highlight and shadow clipping, you can adjust the black and white point visually like you might do in Lightroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmcnickle View Post
    How can I boost the blacks and/or set the black/white point? I can't seem to figure it out. My brain is not working well with C1Pro this week.

    Thanks
    Denise

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    Re: C1 pro or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmcnickle View Post
    How can I boost the blacks and/or set the black/white point? I can't seem to figure it out. My brain is not working well with C1Pro this week.

    Thanks
    Denise
    grab #1: with the pickers (red 1 and red 2) you can set black point (RGB 0-0-0) and white point (RGB 255-255-255... i.e. not white balance)

    grab#2: with the levels (picker on the upper side) you can push the black point

    grab#3: in addition you could use the HDR tool for pushing the blacks (different from adjustment with levels as here it's an exposure compensation for the dark tonalvalues)
    Last edited by thomas; 15th January 2011 at 08:40.

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