What’s the current state of Phase One?

[Paul Spinnler]

My understanding from people at P1 is that precisely management decided not to cater to the crowd which cannot afford the “traditional” 50k entry without back, 25k upgrade with latest back etc scheme; thinking is by keeping per product margins high you can run a lean, profitable business for those who can and keep your profitability for the business unit.

It also does not make sense - the amount of backs sold per year is in the low thousands and most of the people buying them are already aware of the cheaper options; those who cannot afford P1 are anyhow mostly on other systems already. Why give away the margin of your core customer base to compete with the sub 10k segment? Does not make sense.

I think prices will stay high and if you want to get into the P1 world you can always buy a cheaper used back and then later upgrade etc.

 

[ThdeDude]

Different story for the technical camera users but since Hasselblad just announced the X2D 100C, a Hasselblad CFV-100C digital back might not be to far away.

Being also back-illuminated (IMX461) it could be a real alternative to P1's IQ4 (IMX411) at a fraction of the price of the IQ4.

 

[tcdeveau]

Will be interesting to see if/when P1 releases a IQ5 how pricing of it will reflect the market entry of Fujifilm's GFX and Hasselblad's X System.

For many who would have considered P1 in the past or current P1 users considering upgrading, Fujifilm's and Hasselblad's 100MB offerings will be "good enough" as to be a cost-efficient alternative to P1.

Based on the IQ4 I'm guessing P1 isn't going to do much with their pricing but would love for them to prove me wrong.

I'm generally happy with the IQ4 Achromatic. It does what I need it to, so as long as P1 keeps supporting it, there's not much more I need from them (or from the back). Manual entry of lens and movement metadata would be nice though (I'm not moving from Alpa to the XT just for this), and looking forward to see what happens with interfacing the IQ4 and C1 on the iPad.

 

[tcdeveau]

Different story for the technical camera users but since Hasselblad just announced the X2D 100C, a Hasselblad CFV-100C digital back might not be to far away.

Being also front-illuminated it could be a real alternative to P1's IQ4.

Do you mean back-illuminated?

Definitely agree and my only hesitation with the X2D is whether or not to wait for a CFVIII-100c.

 

[ThdeDude]

... decided not to cater to the crowd which cannot afford the “traditional” 50k entry ... those who cannot afford P1 are anyhow mostly on other systems already.

I think it is a mistake to see this in 2022 in terms of "afford" or "cannot afford".

At least with the introduction of 100MB mirrorless Fujifilm and Hasselblad cameras for many "traditional" P1 users, there is now a more modern alternative to the "mirror" XF, which is now conceptionally obsolete.

 

[ThdeDude]

Do you mean back-illuminated?

Sorry for the oversight. Yes, back-illuminated.

 

[ThdeDude]

Based on the IQ4 I'm guessing P1 isn't going to do much with their pricing

The difference between the time of release of the IQ4 (2018?) and now is that there are now viable alternatives in the form of Fujifilm's GFX and Hasselblad's X System.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think it is a mistake to see this in 2022 in terms of "afford" or "cannot afford".

At least with the introduction of 100MB mirrorless Fujifilm and Hasselblad cameras for many "traditional" P1 users, there is now a more modern alternative to the "mirror" XF, which is now conceptionally obsolete.

Granted - there’s no mirrorless from P1 and I am not sure there ever will be …

 

[ThdeDude]

So the backs are now assembled in Japan, what about repair and maintenance?
Still in Kopenhagen or did they get rid of that also?

I always wondered whether Fujifilm ...

 

[ThdeDude]

Granted - there’s no mirrorless from P1 and I am not sure there ever will be …

Of course, you have the XT which is mirrorless.

Very likely that the IQ5 will have 200MB. This may suggest the need for new lenses. A mirrorless XF body with newly computed lenses which don't have to be of retro-focus design (because no mirror). Adapter for older lenses, similarly to what Nikon and Cannon did.

 

[JeffK]

Mac vs PC
Android vs iPhone
Google Workspace vs Office 365
Marketo vs Hubspot
Hubspot vs Salesforce
Mirrorless vs Mirror
ALPA vs Cambo
Male vs Female
Light vs Dark
Atheism vs Monotheism
Catholicism vs Judaism
Margarine vs Butter
Universe created in 6 days vs 7 days
Tomato vs Tomato
Potato vs Potato
Costco Muffins vs Cake
Bread vs Brioche
Pastry vs Brioche
pro-monarchy vs monarchy
Nikon vs Canon
Nikon vs Leica (rangefinders)
Leica vs Voigtlander
Zeiss vs Nikon
Zeiss vs Leica
Meade vs Schmidt Cassegrain
Celestron vs Meade
ad infinitum... ie: perditio tempus

this thread has gotten as pointless as discussions around the above. It's not about the tools. They're all brilliantly engineered platforms. We use what we can afford and what serves our purpose. I'm not going to get angry at a private business for charging what they charge. It's not an essential service. At least they're not blatantly withholding inventory to keep the price high - like the diamond industry. "Hey, here's some worthless glass. There's actually way more than we need, but we used some marketing tactics developed in the 50's by smart dudes on Madison Avenue to rip you off."

 

[ThdeDude]

this thread has gotten as pointless as discussions around the above. It's not about the tools.

Depends, would I say.

For technical camera users there is right now only one (1) "modern" (back-illuminated) digital back, namely the IQ4. But now getting a bit old and severely overpriced.

IMO, somewhat shaky whether P1 will be able to make a business case for a IQ5 especially at past pricing.

General consensus that Hasselblad's H system is dead men walking.

A Hasselblad CFV-100C digital back may be the only new digital back we can expected with some degree of certainty for 2023. Depending on the computational features offered it might become the sensible choice.

 

[Ray Harrison]

I don’t know that Phase considers the 44x33 space competition in the classic sense (obviously just speculation). They made a conscious business decision to stop working on those backs. I think they feel there’s headroom in the 54x40 sensors still. Sure, it’s possible that a high quality 44x33 100MP back from Hasselblad would allow entry in to the full tech cam experience for people who wouldn’t ever consider Phase to begin with, and it may certainly eat into some potential customers who would, I don’t know. But to me, the bigger change agent would be a 150MP+ 54x40 back from Hasselblad and a mirrorless body (H7-ish or whatever) at a lower price point. I doubt it will happen, but would be interesting if it did. They’d still need to compete on features for the back of course.

I would like Phase to move on from the XF although even now I find it to be an exceptionally versatile camera. I’m very happy with my IQ4150 and IQ3100A. Two generations, exceptional results (for me). There are things I want from Phase that may or may not come from the IQ4 series, but I’m not looking to “jump ship” as the kids on YouTube say.

 

[JeffK]

Depends, would I say.

For technical camera users there is right now only one (1) "modern" (back-illuminated) digital back, namely the IQ4. But now getting a bit old and severely overpriced.

For medium format that's correct. However, starting with the Sony A7R2, you've now got a smaller version in 35mm FF format. It's a 40+mp BSI sensor with the same potential as what's in the IQ4, but in a smaller format. I've got one on the rear of a Cambo Actus, so BSI on the back of a technical camera is also available at a much lower price point. Of course the Sony UI isn't my favourite. But for the rare time I need colour, it's a great tool to have available. My workhorse is the IQ3A on an ALPA 12 MAX/70mm. I do have an XF and a few good lenses too. Again, every tool has a use case.

 

[tcdeveau]

The difference between the time of release of the IQ4 (2018?) and now is that there are now viable alternatives in the form of Fujifilm's GFX and Hasselblad's X System.

Both the GFX and X1D were available in 2017 before the IQ4 was released….I’ve been using the X1D since early 2017 myself. Every time a new system comes out, whether it be the D800, GFX, or X1D, the question resurfaces about what P1 is going to do in response….they exited the 33x44mm business on the consumer side but seem to be happy with keeping the 40x54mm pricing on the higher side with each competitor release.

 

[ThdeDude]

For medium format that's correct. However, starting with the Sony A7R2, you've now got a smaller version in 35mm FF format. It's a 40+mp BSI sensor with the same potential as what's in the IQ4, but in a smaller format.

And with the iPhone 14Pro you have 48MP BSI sensor AND satellite text in case getting lost or breaking a leg in the boonies!

 

[ThdeDude]

Both the GFX and X1D were available in 2017 before the IQ4 was released

I stand corrected. Should have better researched this before writing.

 

[Paul2660]

It may be 48MP on the iPhone but it still outputs 12MP for file size. It should still create some nice images. DJI has a similar chip in one of their Mavic Air drones, which will output the 48MP raw, however files are not that spectacular.

Paul

 

[Paul2660]

Where I feel Phase One could improve:

1. Tethering solution for the the IQ4 via a iPad, to C1. It should have been available at the announcement of C1 for the iPad. The Cascable solution IMO leave quite a bit to be desired.
2. A EVF solution for the XF, if Leica can make it work the the M11 and Sigma the FP-L then Phase should be able to create a similar product, albeit with a cable
3. Better battery for the IQ4, as the current ones have limited life and do not have a large enough milliamp rating. Due to the fact that the battery has to fit inside the back I
realize this makes development more difficult.
4. Power management for the IQ4/XF similar to the IQ3/XF. WHY can't this be done. The IQ3/XF solution was great as the back could use the battery in the XF once the battery
in the back drained too low. As the XF hardly needs much battery you can last almost a full day with moderate shooting with only 2 batteries.
5. I would love to see a better hand shake between Phase One and Adobe as currently LR/ACR cannot handle raw files using dual exposure and even normal raw files can have
issues with color cast and or excessive noise.

I feel a more modern camera along the lines of Fuji or Hasselblad will not make it as it would also require all new lenses, due to the fact it would be mirrorless. I guess you could make an adapter for all the Schneider lenses. A much more modern AF system, using Phase detect would be great along with a Moderna EVF, however the cost of such equipment would be beyond my range.

The IQ4 has amazing capabilities, with features like Dual Exposure the DR of a single image is huge. Image quality is excellent.

Paul

 

[SrMphoto]

It may be 48MP on the iPhone but it still outputs 12MP for file size. It should still create some nice images. DJI has a similar chip in one of their Mavic Air drones, which will output the 48MP raw, however files are not that spectacular.

Paul

The Quad Bayer 48MP does not have the same resolution as a 48MP Bayer filter.