Hasselblad H to be continued or...?

[Maxx9photo]

The last time they have full format H6D was 6 years ago, I haven't heard any rumors or update if they will continue on full format.

While the X now has 2 updated version, ever since the released of X1D. Is it safe to say they are now focusing the audience of X/V market?

Phase One is now main dominant for Digital back with 150mp, even this has been more than 4 years now.

 

[Pieter 12]

Was the H ever really full format?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

H is dead, it seems, they are just milking it till the sales fall below a level where it is too low considering future maintenance commitments required by consumer laws; eg Flextight which at the end of life just sold around a hundred units globally - not enough to warrant further development or more than 5 year stock of parts …

 

[ThdeDude]

H is dead, it seems, they are just milking it till the sales fall below a level where it is too low considering future maintenance commitments required by consumer laws; eg Flextight which at the end of life just sold around a hundred units globally - not enough to warrant further development or more than 5 year stock of parts …

Seems to be the general consensus that Hasselblad's H system is going the way of the dodo.

The 53.7x40.4mm sensor just approximates 645 format size (56 x 42mm), but I guess close enough to call it full-format 645.

 

[steveash]

Availability of H6D cameras and H mount lenses is very limited now but it’s still officially on sale as a halo model. As a result, they won’t let on if or when it will be replaced. I think the system has gone as far as it realistically can so a replacement would need a whole new design with new sensors and lenses. Whether there is a market big enough to justify the development costs will be subject of much analysis I’m sure.

As a company Hasselblad have fairly limited resources compared to the giants and for now they surely have all hands committed to refining the X2D and potentially developing a successor to the 907X. Not to mention new XV lenses.

They do however have more resources than Phase One so it might be tempting to push ahead of them in the marketplace at some point.

 

[buildbot]

I would imagine that a new H system would basically be a return to V at this point - if the digital backs are essentially the same size regardless of H or V, they might as well just build a new fully electric mirror box that works with the existing H lenses and the new CFV's (maybe one with a full 645 cmos sensor in it). Would be pretty sweet!

 

[ThdeDude]

the system has gone as far as it realistically can so a replacement would need a whole new design with new sensors and lenses. Whether there is a market big enough to justify the development costs will be subject of much analysis I’m sure

Somehow also true for the PhaseOne "mirror" PhaseOne XF, now conceptually obsolete. Once you have "global shutter" can go all the way electronically. And new lenses that are up to the 200 plus MB sensor.

 

[buildbot]

Somehow also true for the PhaseOne "mirror" PhaseOne XF, now conceptually obsolete. Once you have "global shutter" can go all the way electronically. And new lenses that are up to the 200 plus MB sensor.

Still has big caveats with respect to dynamic range. Phase one has a global shutter camera already:

iXM-GS120 Camera

Phase One iXM-GS is designed and built for the demanding needs of high-quality motion pictures.

geospatial.phaseone.com

It has 80DB of dynamic range, or aprox. 13.3 F stops, compared to the 15 of the IQ4. Getting close though!

 

[KC_2020]

Just a few observations.

8 near mint H6D-100 bodies are listed eBay for $12-$13K. They've been there for 4+ months. Last November 2 sold for just over $10K. A new one sold to a collector for under $30K not long ago. An open box for about the same money has been available since September 1, 2022.

Foto Care in New York was the last rental house to offer them. They rented for $375 a week but they sold them all over a year ago. No other rental house in NY or LA that I'm aware of offers them. I know because I called around late last year. I rented one from a pro in LA for $300 for the week.

The X2D was released missing enough features that you can assume they hit the budget ceiling for development and just put it on the market unfinished. I sure hope it's unfinished and firmware updates will address the shortfalls. They're now in stock at many dealers so the initial demand has been met pretty quickly.

What market exists for anything more than the X2D ?

How many higher res H6s could they actually sell ?

 

[Phase V]

I guess the multishot models are selling quite well, and despite what PhaseOne is telling us, this IS the better choice
for Cultural Heritage work. The problem for Hasselblad is, the 150 Mp sensor has to be solderd, instead of pins, so the
whole shift unit would have to be redesigned, which btw was an absolutely nightmare for PhaseOne too and took them
half a year of R&D.

 

[ThdeDude]

Still has big caveats with respect to dynamic range. Phase one has a global shutter camera already:

iXM-GS120 Camera

Phase One iXM-GS is designed and built for the demanding needs of high-quality motion pictures.

geospatial.phaseone.com

It has 80DB of dynamic range, or aprox. 13.3 F stops, compared to the 15 of the IQ4. Getting close though!

Presume using the 44x33mm (Type 3.6) IMX661 Sony sensor.

The sensor was announced/released March'21 and now we almost have Feb '23!

 

[ThdeDude]

What market exists for anything more than the X2D ?

Include the corresponding HB CFV-100c (whenever released) and you have a point.

What resolution would allow unlimited enlargements as long as not cropped in printing and/or in viewing (not getting closer that one can't see the whole print). Maybe not MB 100, but might be getting close.

 

[MGrayson]

What resolution would allow unlimited enlargements as long as not cropped in printing and/or in viewing (not getting closer that one can't see the whole print). Maybe not MB 100, but might be getting close.

We passed that point about 90MP ago.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Presume using the 44x33mm (Type 3.6) IMX661 Sony sensor.

The sensor was announced/released March'21 and now we almost have Feb '23!

It is not fit for purpose - there won't be a global shutter digital back anytime soon and even then it does not make an X shutter obsolete as it still allows you to remote control the aperture.

It is a fantasy to hope that there soon will be a GS sensor and that X shutter lenses are dead weight. Pls. also note that the x shutter has become a product in its own right with Phase selling them at a very healthy margin to all tech cam manufacturers. There's an incentive also to not kill off that business.

Sony has yet to announce a true successor to the 150 megapixel sensor used in today's backs and it will take quite a while before a new back with that sensor then arrives.

It is more likely that we'll see a stop gap update in 24 (maybe 23, who knows) with same pixel count, but better I/O, energy efficiency, etc.

Phase currently de-emphasised bespoke photography / cultural heritage in favour of the B2B business given back sales went down during pandemic and given the recessionary environment and cost inflation which basically both impact sales to the user base of professional photographers.

Rodenstock just announced another price increase a few days back to its dealers, so lenses are further going to increase in price this year which makes any investment in the high end photo segment even more tricky if lenses get so expensive that many users are priced out. It is a niche product and as monopolist they can dictate pricing, unfortunately.

Can you say 20k lens for an x-shutter 138 or 15k for a 32 X shutter? Well, might be reality soon ... so that makes it clear why people move to Fuji and Hassy X. High end MFD is getting more and more luxurious ... and GS sensors are mainly used in quality control where no one needs a full format MF sized sensor with 200 megapixels ... it is about accurately checking products like seminconductors passing beneath a GS QC outfit which needs more DoF rather than physical sensor size ... so don't hold your breath for a photographic 54mm x 40mm sensor >150 megapixels. It is not going to happen anytime soon, if at all.

 

[tcdeveau]

Rodenstock just announced another price increase a few days back to its dealers, so lenses are further going to increase in price this year which makes any investment in the high end photo segment even more tricky if lenses get so expensive that many users are priced out. It is a niche product and as monopolist they can dictate pricing, unfortunately.

Can you say 20k lens for an x-shutter 138 or 15k for a 32 X shutter? Well, might be reality soon ... so that makes it clear why people move to Fuji and Hassy X. High end MFD is getting more and more luxurious ... and GS sensors are mainly used in quality control where no one needs a full format MF sized sensor with 200 megapixels ... it is about accurately checking products like seminconductors passing beneath a GS QC outfit which needs more DoF rather than physical sensor size ... so don't hold your breath for a photographic 54mm x 40mm sensor >150 megapixels. It is not going to happen anytime soon, if at all.

Aw man, again? I'd love to add the 138 to my kit but it's hard for me to justify the price.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yes it is going to take effect in the coming weeks, so it will be on manufacturers and dealers to decide whether and how to pass on costs.

I cannot imagine there won't be an impact, especially on the Cambo side which is usually priced lower than the competition. Phase might also at one point send through a pricing update for '23 given they are PE owned and need to keep margins at a certain level ideally ... for a future sale ...

It will over time also have a knock-on effect on 2nd market prices for the sought-after stuff incl. the sought-after SK lenses (e.g. 43, 60, 28, 120 Asph).

Problem is basically that the high end market is squeezed from two ends: cost inflation on gear / optics and lower revenues from clients. In a recessionary environment spend on photographic services is one of the first things that get cut ...

 

[Thyl]

The X2D MUST be a significant in house competition to the H6D-100. That HB nevertheless released it before a potential H6D-150c is telling, imho. Furthermore, The H series has a TTL flash control based on the SCA system. The last manufacturer for flashes compatible with the SCA adapters, Metz, has given up. So, also the flash control system would have to be renovated. The large 100 MP sensor is no longer advertised by Sony, which might mean that they intend to stop its production. All in all, not very good perspectives.

We are probably going to see a CFV-100c derivative of the X2D for the V system.

 

[ThdeDude]

... global shutter ... does not make an X shutter obsolete as it still allows you to remote control the aperture ... the x shutter has become a product in its own right

Agree. With X-Shutter can control both the shutter speed and aperture from the IQ4-150. Only wished that the X-Shutter would be wireless (as an option), far less expensive, and controllable from a smartphone app. (Or can the IQ4-150 and X-Shutter be controlled by a smartphone app?)

As far as I know the X-Shutter is now the only mechanical shutter available factory new for large-format type lenses. Copal shutter and Rollei/Schneider/Rodenstock eShutter having been discontinued years ago.

 

[ThdeDude]

We are probably going to see a CFV-100c derivative of the X2D for the V system.

A person-in-the-know told me that the CFV-100c is on its way but didn't know (or tell) when it will be announced.

Wonder why not announced together with the X2D? Still much unsold stock of the CFV-50c Mark II?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Agree. With X-Shutter can control both the shutter speed and aperture from the IQ4-150. Only wished that the X-Shutter would be wireless (as an option), far less expensive, and controllable from a smartphone app. (Or can the IQ4-150 and X-Shutter be controlled by a smartphone app?)

As far as I know the X-Shutter is now the only mechanical shutter available factory new for large-format type lenses. Copal shutter and Rollei/Schneider/Rodenstock eShutter having been discontinued years ago.

The copal shutter could be re-done as especially in China people like them, but it would require an entrepreneurial effort by the remaining tech cam dealers / manufacturers. Never say never, the resurgence of analog could also be a motivator, but it requires entrepreneurial gut and the market environment also delays investments into this area atm.

I really hope that the IQ5 implements a new SoC with increased energy efficiency, latest WIFI with multi-client server functionality (video stream onto monitoring device such as an external screen / iPhone plus file server on the mac for wireless image transfer), Bluetooth low energy for remote triggering which would allow tech cam manufacturers to add creative trigger solutions and hopefully useable HDMI with functions like zoom to 100% when manual focus is detected.

Unfortunately, I don't see this happening soon and there is no 200 megapixel sensor in sight ...