What the Phase...?

[Phase V]

Got a phone call from my dealer today , he just wanted to tell me that he is not my dealer anymore, in fact, the whole German office in Cologne was shut down and the remaining employees were fired. Sale is now through dealers like Calumet etc. Prices will go up on April 1 and they
have devalued the trade in from IQ3100 to IQ4 around 3000€ and have cut the full 5 year
warranty down to standard 1 year.
WTF is this?? Is this company now driven by completly morons?

 

[vjbelle]

Sure isn't a good sign.....

Victor B.

 

[buildbot]

Got a phone call from my dealer today , he just wanted to tell me that he is not my dealer anymore, in fact, the whole German office in Cologne was shut down and the remaining employees were fired. Sale is now through dealers like Calumet etc. Prices will go up on April 1 and they
have devalued the trade in from IQ3100 to IQ4 around 3000€ and have cut the full 5 year
warranty down to standard 1 year.
WTF is this?? Is this company now driven by completly morons?

Wow :/ And here I was thinking about an IQ4 Achro sometime soon.

 

[KC_2020]

WTF is this?? Is this company now driven by completly morons?

Since the beginning of the year I've heard stories like this from several friends/photographers in Europe.

 

[Geoff]

Yikes.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

It is a cost cutting measure to keep divisional margins high. I heard of this weeks ago. Now it is only available via dealers. Dealers are supposed to order backs in an online tool and it comes from Japan directly. Super efficient. Not every market had a domestic sales force, so Germany is a bit a special case. They increase margins this way as the burden to sell is now fully on the dealers. Other markets without domestic sales people are not affected.

Re price strategy and focusing on the core elite of buyers: I mentioned this already in the other threads regarding the price of the IQ4. The price will increase. So selling for 17.5k is undervaluing it. IQ4 will hit 50k and more. If you can get one for 25k it is still a good deal.

Phase is fully focusing on B2B as times are tough and photographers don't have the money anymore like in the old days for the expensive cameras.

There is still an elite circle of photogs who will shoot high-end MFD and some well-off hobbyists and fine art photographers are still there too.

P1 decided to keep the price point high since they are still the best system in the world with the highest resolution with no alternative if this is what you want. So elasticity of demand is low for the top top end who already makes up most of the remaining clientele.

Basically they are saying: We are not competing for Fuji / Hassy customers. Either you are P1 customer or not.

Times are tough. It is a recessionary environment.

Phase post Covid makes money with inspection systems where the comparative customer value proposition is the highest.

500k drones vs. 50k backs ... no time for people whining it is too expensive vs. Fuji / Hassy.

P1 is totally elite now.

 

[Paratom]

too bad. I hope they are financially stable. Who wants to pay premium price for a product where you don't know if you get support tomorrow.
In regards of being elite - why do they cut down guarantee from 5 to 1 year? Service is one important factor of an elite product IMO.

 

[anyone]

Elite or luxury? The line is thin.

 

[MartinN]

Hmm. I got excellent support from Phase today. 10 messages during the day, and I learned I could delete the Leaf driver and reinstall it. And that for an Aptus II which is end of life, but of course they won’t touch the back anymore.

 

[ThdeDude]

"P1 is totally elite now"

Maybe not the best way to categorize/classify.

Have older stepfather, for him Leica is "elite". Hasselblad for people who have to work for a living. PhaseOne even doesn't register.

 

[buildbot]

Re price strategy and focusing on the core elite of buyers: I mentioned this already in the other threads regarding the price of the IQ4. The price will increase. So selling for 17.5k is undervaluing it. IQ4 will hit 50k and more. If you can get one for 25k it is still a good deal.

Phase is fully focusing on B2B as times are tough and photographers don't have the money anymore like in the old days for the expensive cameras.

There is still an elite circle of photogs who will shoot high-end MFD and some well-off hobbyists and fine art photographers are still there too.

P1 decided to keep the price point high since they are still the best system in the world with the highest resolution with no alternative if this is what you want. So elasticity of demand is low for the top top end who already makes up most of the remaining clientele.

Respectfully, just because they raise their price does not mean the backs are suddenly worth more used. In fact, this could make them worth less due to uncertainty of the consumer side of the company. People will pay what they will pay, and the difference between 17.5K and 25K (Plus tax in some places!!!) is an entire GX100S setup with lenses. And sometimes you need a faster sale.

I agree nobody else sells a digital camera back with 151MP BSI, but they are not the only company in town with the IMX411 sensor - lots of machine vision, aerial, and astro products use it too. It's a very narrow window of value to be sure...

Hmm. I got excellent support from Phase today. 10 messages during the day, and I learned I could delete the Leaf driver and reinstall it. And that for an Aptus II which is end of life, but of course they won’t touch the back anymore.

Their support is so great!

"P1 is totally elite now"

Maybe not the best way to categorize! Have older stepfather, for him Leica is "elite"! PhaseOne even doesn't register. Hasselblad for people who have to work for a living.

Yep, that's going to be their problem down the line. Nobody will know about them, and that will effect even their aerial and B2B side of things in the long run IMO. Leica does HUGE amounts of B2B, and people see that logo and make the connection. It goes both ways, My wife works in medicine and knows Leica from their microscopes and other high end tools, if she ever decided to get into photography it would probably be Leica. If someone uses Leica cameras, then opens an aerial survey company, I would imagine they would be curious about Leica's aerial cameras, and go "Phase Who?"

 

[Paul Spinnler]

too bad. I hope they are financially stable. Who wants to pay premium price for a product where you don't know if you get support tomorrow.
In regards of being elite - why do they cut down guarantee from 5 to 1 year? Service is one important factor of an elite product IMO.

Also profits. They probably have statistics saying that most failures happen, if they happen, either very early, or rather later in the cycle, say year 4 or so ... but who knows. Looks like profit measure.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Respectfully, just because they raise their price does not mean the backs are suddenly worth more used. In fact, this could make them worth less due to uncertainty of the consumer side of the company. People will pay what they will pay, and the difference between 17.5K and 25K (Plus tax in some places!!!) is an entire GX100S setup with lenses. And sometimes you need a faster sale.

I agree nobody else sells a digital camera back with 151MP BSI, but they are not the only company in town with the IMX411 sensor - lots of machine vision, aerial, and astro products use it too. It's a very narrow window of value to be sure...


Their support is so great!


Yep, that's going to be their problem down the line. Nobody will know about them, and that will effect even their aerial and B2B side of things in the long run IMO. Leica does HUGE amounts of B2B, and people see that logo and make the connection. It goes both ways, My wife works in medicine and knows Leica from their microscopes and other high end tools, if she ever decided to get into photography it would probably be Leica. If someone uses Leica cameras, then opens an aerial survey company, I would imagine they would be curious about Leica's aerial cameras, and go "Phase Who?"

On the price - I think we are at a tipping point. If confidence in the company starts to erode because management completely neglects the pros then yes, secondary market value will be less affected. The people who sell IQ4s right now are people who exit the system as it already is the highest end back.

If on the other hand all of a sudden they're back with some new announcements in H1, like for example the XT2 and some statements relating to the future of the platform, etc. the price might stabilize. If we even see an IQ5 with high trade in value it might also help stabilize the value.

Still - IQ4 is still no.1 for high res and IQ ...

 

[jng]

Yep, that's going to be their problem down the line. Nobody will know about them, and that will effect even their aerial and B2B side of things in the long run IMO. Leica does HUGE amounts of B2B, and people see that logo and make the connection. It goes both ways, My wife works in medicine and knows Leica from their microscopes and other high end tools, if she ever decided to get into photography it would probably be Leica. If someone uses Leica cameras, then opens an aerial survey company, I would imagine they would be curious about Leica's aerial cameras, and go "Phase Who?"

I have no idea about actual numbers, but as others here have noted, I suspect that the consumer/prosumer market for high-end photography gear is small compared to the industrial market. I also think the likelihood of consumer brand recognition influencing purchasing decisions in the industrial domain is slight, given the specialized nature of these products. Professionals working in this environment will know who the main players are and (should) be doing their due diligence in making their selections according to their needs and budget. In my professional life I have evaluated for purchase confocal microscopes from all the major manufacturers - Zeiss, Leica, Nikon, Olympus - not to mention a few companies selling bespoke instruments. These are instruments costing upwards of a half-million US dollars (and more). I can assure you that the beauty of the Leica cameras had no bearing on my most recent decision to acquire one of their microscopes. It was just the best instrument for our needs offered at the best price. On other occasions/contexts, instruments from other manufacturers made more sense. Nothing at all to do with this crazy money-sink-of-a-personal-pursuit I have. Honest.

John

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Leica Microsystems and Leica Camera AG are two different companies with different owners.

I think I remember the company split up goes back to around the time when Andreas Kaufmann entered the picture and saved the company after being late to the party on the digital side. M8, M9 came and the rest is history.

 

[Maxx9photo]

I saw clip on one of youtube channel, there's a statement from P1rep that being 151mp is enough room for them to just keep improving firmware while the system itself won't outgrow the end user.

 

[jng]

Leica Microsystems and Leica Camera AG are two different companies with different owners.

I think I remember the company split up goes back to around the time when Andreas Kaufmann entered the picture and saved the company after being late to the party on the digital side. M8, M9 came and the rest is history.

Well it did come with a nice red badge on it...

Regardless, though, if within one company the microscopes and cameras are typically produced and marketed by different divisions.

 

[tcdeveau]

Well it did come with a nice red badge on it...

Regardless, though, if within one company the microscopes and cameras are typically produced and marketed by different divisions.

I remember when I was in grad school the Leica reps would reach out to me. I’d jokingly tell them those decisions were above my pay grade but if they could get me some discounts on M or S systems I’d be willing to put in some work same with the cryostat folks. I definitely gave myself tennis elbow a couple times in grad schoolon Leica cryostats

 

[JeffK]

I remember when I was in grad school the Leica reps would reach out to me. I’d jokingly tell them those decisions were above my pay grade but if they could get me some discounts on M or S systems I’d be willing to put in some work same with the cryostat folks. I definitely gave myself tennis elbow a couple times in grad schoolon Leica cryostats

there's some very cool stuff out there. Anyone else know you could do Quantitative whole-body autoradiography?

Leica CM3600 XP | Cryomacrotome for Whole-Body Sectioning

The CM3600 XP cryomacrotome, offers the ultimate solution for facilities requiring whole-body, large-area sectioning and cryoplaning equipment.

www.leicabiosystems.com

 

[Pieter 12]

Sale is now through dealers like Calumet

Is Calumet even in business anymore?