A Hypothetical question for you: If Money was no object and You started from scratch, Sinar P2 or Arca Swiss Monolith for 4x5 and 5x7?

[jodad]

Like the subject says, simply a hypothetical question for you: If money was no object and you started from scratch, would you get a Sinar P2 or Arca Swiss Monolith for 4x5 and 5x7? And why? That second bit is also very important!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Arca - Sinar is a studio camera mostly and dead, in reality. The German retailer bought remaining stock, but the delta between used and new is so great it does not mak sense to buy an overpriced new old stock studio monster.

The monolith is part of the broader AS ecosystem and you can reuse parts, I believe, e.g. if you use other Arca cameras, I am sure there's a way to leverage the back adapter, lens panels and even a bino viewer across multiple AS cameras.

 

[darr]

I own two Sinar Ps and two Normas. The Ps are, let’s just say, “not Sinar’s finest hour” (one now serves as a parts donor), which is probably why the P2 showed up to save the day (I have no experience with the P2). The Norma, though, is an absolute classic. Mine lives in the studio for creative 4×5 work. I’ve also owned two Arca-Swiss field cameras (4×5 and 6×9), and my first digital medium format was the ML2. In my book? Arca-Swiss, hands down. The Sinar Ps are more plastic than metal.

 

[Alkibiades]

Like the subject says, simply a hypothetical question for you: If money was no object and you started from scratch, would you get a Sinar P2 or Arca Swiss Monolith for 4x5 and 5x7? And why? That second bit is also very important!

for what?
inside, outside?
for outside non of them

 

[cunim]

I had both for a while. My P2 was 8 x 10 (with a 4 x 5 back as well) but same general principle. The P2 is far too heavy and clumsy to take out of the studio. Actually,what @Alkibiades says. For inside, though, they are both good. As I recall, the stock P2 on a single rail clamp flexed too much so I used an extention rail with two clamps. That made it even heavier.

 

[jodad]

I had both for a while. My P2 was 8 x 10 (with a 4 x 5 back as well) but same general principle. The P2 is far too heavy and clumsy to take out of the studio. Actually,what @Alkibiades says. For inside, though, they are both good. As I recall, the stock P2 on a single rail clamp flexed too much so I used an extention rail with two clamps. That made it even heavier.

View attachment 224999

How did you feel about the monolith in use compared to the p2? For me, you are in a special group because I haven’t been able to find many that have owned/worked with both.

 

[Precision]

For what kind of photography? I’m a studio rat. I use a P2 in the studio still, alongside the MF stuff. I would laugh maniacally at anyone suggesting it move from its honored place atop a massive gear drive head mounted to an equally massive studio stand. For a studio camera use case, P2 all the way, with the DB shutter, please. They are a joy to work with. RIT taught on Sinar and at one time they were the gold standard.

Why? Micrometer gear drive movements, zero yaw movements (standards Pivot at the base, not the center) and the whole ecosystem that Sinar had. DB shutter for self cocking, behind the camera adjustments of all the things. A P2 was (is) a studio photographers workbench. Extremely affordable these days, too. As Darr mentioned P2 addressed a bit of wonkiness in how movements were done in the P models….and with just a bit of additional refinement, formed the basis of the P3 small digital view camera. (Even more precision in that one…)

But, taking a P2 into the field?…lol, no, not without a team of sherpas. That’s where a F or a norma comes into play. Normas look cool and a well maintained one will achieve family heirloom status. An F has neither the cache of the Norma, nor the massive precision of a P2…but it is still in the ecosystem. I use one for my film scanner setup,

 

[cunim]

How did you feel about the monolith in use compared to the p2? For me, you are in a special group because I haven’t been able to find many that have owned/worked with both.

It was a long time ago. As I recall, the monolith was a more rigid alternative to a field camera. The P2 was something else entirely. For example, the picture above shows a Grandagon 200 on the P2. I could not begin to imagine mounting it on a Monolith. But I could barely carry that camera/lens configuration across my office. It also needed one of the bigger Fobas. The little ones danced.

I only had the monolith on trial for a while. Sent it back and kept the P2 because I didn't go anywhere I couldn't wheel a studio stand.

That said, I have a monolith now, but for MFD. It's OK but a little beyond its limit with the 138 HR. Key advantage of AS gear is that you can move lenses between the field cameras and the studio rig.

 

[abruzzi]

But, taking a P2 into the field?…lol, no, not without a team of sherpas. That’s where a F or a norma comes into play. Normas look cool and a well maintained one will achieve family heirloom status. An F has neither the cache of the Norma, nor the massive precision of a P2…but it is still in the ecosystem. I use one for my film scanner setup,

I've never seen a Monolith in person, but I have a 5x7 P2. Its not the heaviest camera, but it is heavier than my Toyo 810MII, which is saying a lot. The other big issue is it give no concessions to compactness-it doesn't fold in any way. So, yeah, definitely not a field camera. I have a set of Normas, and while still a bit heavy compared to lightweight field cameras the 4x5 and 5x7 are both very usable in the field (the 8x10 very much less so.)

I have standard scavenged from a Sinar X, Sinar rails, and table clamp comprising my film scanning setup. Its kind of amazing the hundred different ways you can configure the Sinar parts.

If I were starting over with LF though I'd get rid of everything and start with the Arca Swiss F-Metric.

 

[accwai]

[...] If I were starting over with LF though I'd get rid of everything and start with the Arca Swiss F-Metric.

I once came across a Thomas Struth interview video on YouTube with an 8x10 F-Metric on tripod in the background. Can't find the video again, but really nice setup. It depends on what one is really doing though. There is supposed to be a non-trivial weight difference between the 8x10 F-Metric and 8x10 F-Classic. Something like 300g or 1kg from different Arca websites. I have F-Classic on the film side from 6x9 to 8x10 and F-Universalis on the digital size from 6x9 down. Personally, Metric and Orbix are essential for 6x9 and down but probably not absolutely necessary beyond 6x9. If the 8x10 in the field, I would stay with F-Classic. But that's just me...

Given where things are now, if I were to start over I'll probably drop 6x9 from the film side and have the whole film side use standard 141mm front instead of an odd ball 4x5 body with small 110mm front. In fact, I might even drop the 4x5 size entirely and jump directly from 54x40 digital to 8x10 film with nothing in between.

Now if the real purpose here were to drop a ton of money, I would go with the Gibellini GP810TiV2 instead of Arca Swiss. Yes, "Ti" as in Titanium... It's basically the same weight as an Arca Swiss 8x10 F-Classic but by the look of its structural design it pretty much has to be much stronger and more precise. The quintasnetial no holds barred 8x10 for the field...

 

[vieri]

My .02 of course, but l I'd go with Arca-Swiss hands down - especially looking at what you can buy new today from both manufacturers.

The Monolith is an amazing camera, although not as easy to travel with as the F-Metric or F-Classic. Arca-Swiss is great, responsive and supportive. Their products are extremely well made, they are creative and keep developing new solutions (e.g. the Pico). They support digital and film both, and when it comes to film you can easily move from 6x9 to 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 just by replacing your rear standard - more, pretty much everything is modular and interchangeable (at least inside a product line, often between lines as well), so if you start with a Monolith you can then add another camera and move parts around.

Sinar's current product line of cameras is much more limited, and while amazing products it looks like if you want to shoot film, buying used is your only option (apologies if I am wrong and missed something on their website). I know you asked about the P2, and if you find one with the specs you are looking for, I am sure it will serve you well, but having the choice between two amazing products, I'd rather go with the one that is still currently sold and supported in the configuration I am looking for.

Hope this helps! Best regards,

Vieri

 

[abruzzi]

I have an early Gibellini. I was told it was a prototype. It have some similarities to the GP810, but some differences as well. They are interesting designs, but I'd still take the A-S. Actually though for 8x10 I've ended up with a Canham JMC810, which I like a lot. Its not the most rigid, but its rigid enough and is portable.

I have a mish mash of A-S cameras that I'm trying to replace my other cameras with--I have a 6x9 F-classic that converts to a (171) 4x5 F-Field. I have a (141) 4x5 F-Metric. I have a (141) 5x7 format conversion kit coming. Its F-Classic, so the 4x5 will become a bastard F-Classic and F-Metric hybrid. I'd like to separate the 6x9 from the F-Field, keep the Canham for 8x10, and sell off the rest of my LF cameras. That means I need to sell the Gibellini and a Toyo 810Mii I have, all my Normas (one of each--4x5, 5x7, and 8x10), Linhof Technikardans (54 and 23S), plus a few misc things I don't use like a beater Master Technika, a Shen Hao, and a few other things. I've just found that the Arca Swiss does just about everything better. Some of the above are going to be very hard to let go of though, especially the Normas and the Technikardans.

 

[Adammork]

I have had the Arca Monolit, F-Metric and the Arca Misura - all only used in the field - the Monolith to big to pack down in a reasonable bag and heavy in the end of the day - the F-Metric much better - but the Misura is hands down my favorit!

On the Misura you use the same brilliant bellow for all your lenses from the widest to the longest, on the 4x5 it was made of leather, very durable - packs down compact, only beaten by the Technikardan I now use, very stable only drawback is no swing on the rear standard, but that is also part of the stability in my experience.

I think the Arca Misura is kind of rare used - but if I was looking for an Arca in the field I would take a good look at that - the leather case is bit of a gimmick in my view, and if you don't use it you can also detach the round plate at the bottom you will find on some images of the Misura very easy.

 

[baudolino]

I have the 8x10 Misura on order since the beginning of October; should be arriving any time now. The rigid back is a feature for me - have had too many shots ruined by the rear standard on other cameras moving a bit when inserting a film holder. What I love about the Misura concept is the quick deployment and pack-down. I shoot mostly old disused factories and some locations are a bit iffy for me to stay long. The reduced number of knobs also seem to be a good thing when one wishes to operate the camera quickly.

 

[Alkibiades]

I have the 8x10 Misura on order since the beginning of October; should be arriving any time now. The rigid back is a feature for me - have had too many shots ruined by the rear standard on other cameras moving a bit when inserting a film holder. What I love about the Misura concept is the quick deployment and pack-down. I shoot mostly old disused factories and some locations are a bit iffy for me to stay long. The reduced number of knobs also seem to be a good thing when one wishes to operate the camera quickly.

8x10 misura is a dream of a camera, it was not possible to get it used.
I found something similar: a special Sinar edition 8x10 for traveling, only few were made, I saw only 2, one is my , i got it from an english photographer and one I saw in Japan. it weight only about 3kg, front is the F-standart (could be change to P if needed) and the rear is a modified P standart without the whole uper part-only fine focusing is posible on the rear. the camera is solid as a rock- yes you need it when you put the big 8x10 cassets in. and all other movements are posible on the front- nobody needs more in the field.
so Sinar made also some great stuff but this is not so known.

 

[Alkibiades]

when the focus of the user would be on a small and compact system in 4x5 and 5x7 so the winner is here Arca Swiss F-classic.
F-line has everything you will need, it is a simple made camera, fast to use, has still a great precision, arca additional equipment like viewfinder, lether bellows, compendium, ground rails ect..
monorail is a great studio camera, indeed a great copy of the P but here the copy is better than the master.
But when i compare the prices i will prefer the P.
Still own a old P with 5x7 and 4x5 back, when i would use a car and only a short walk is to do than a sinar p is fine, but i cant imagine to take the p 13x18 for a whole day trip.
there are indeed not much compact and precise 5x7 cameras.
A very compact and precise- but not light- would be linhof technika 13x18 version V. it is Technika 3000 but in 5x7 format, with internal focusing rail for extrem wide angle lenses!

 

[baudolino]

I also vote for the Arca Swiss F-Classic, perhaps with the 4x5 front standard. I have the 4x5 F-Field C that uses the smaller 6x9 front standard but I'd be careful about this model for use with wide angle lenses (had some bellows vignetting with the amazing 90/6.8 classic that I bought from you, Alkibiades - flat board, full rise). For my purposes, the Technikardan 45S is also a great alternative, especially with the nice Chinese leather bag bellows that cover all the wide angles and stretch easily to 150mm at infinity.

I looked at the Sinar F and P when I decided to step up to 8x10, but they seemed way too heavy to me and many, especially those in decent condition, were offered on eBay in the form of bits and pieces that required a further dive into a rabbit hole of specs and parts numbers that I wasn't ready to embark on.

Well, seems like we are all talking about our own choices and experience, without really understanding what the OP is trying to do, given his declared choices .