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A7r IV

Audii-Dudii

Active member
I believe this does have a deeper grip so that too would be an advantage for people with big hands. Me, the smaller the better, especially if I am going to pop a big lens on it.
According to my rudimentary photogrammetrical analysis below, Sony has smashed its previous grip-depth record with the A7RIV: 23.6 mm!



This represents an increase of ~4.9 mm compared to the A7RIII and, unfortunately, it also makes the camera a non-starter for use with my various FrankenKameras, wherein I use my A7R as a poor-man's digital back, along with various adapted lenses, and mount it to my FrankenKameras via its lens mount. For example, here's my modified Cambo WDS outfit, which provides generous amounts of rise / fall / shift movements on its rear standard:



The trouble with this approach is that the greater the depth of the grip, the thicker the spacer that is required to provide sufficient clearance for the grip relative to the camera mount panel. And the as the thickness of the spacer increases, the minimum FFD of the lenses that can be used with it increases by a similar amount.

(For those who haven't been paying close attention to it, here's how the grip depth has (de)volved over the four generations of the A7R series: A7R - 8.8 mm; A7RII - 16.9 mm; A7RIII - 18.7 mm; A7RIV - 23.6 mm.)

Perhaps surprisingly, I use 35 mm format lenses most of the time -- you might be surprised how many of them project image circles large enough to provide a useful range of rise / fall / shift movements -- and the grip used on the A7RII was just beyond the limit my cameras could handle without significant additional modification. The A7RIII, with its even deeper grip still, can't be accommodated on my FrankenKameras using my lenses of choice (film-era Contax / Yashica lenses) and is basically limited to being used with medium-format lenses.

Worse, the one camera I own that is designed in such a way that it can accommodate the grip of the A7RIV -- a Cambo Actus -- will only just barely do so when used with my lenses of choice.

I just took some quick-and-dirty measurements from my Actus, which is presently setup to use my C/Y lenses, which have a FFD of 45.5 mm.

The A7RIV's deeper grip will easily clear the Actus' rotating camera mount bracket, but -- incredibly! -- it will also come within 3 mm of the outer edge of the back side of the lens panel.

This means it will push / fold the outer edge of the standard bellows around the outer edge of the lens panel and sandwich the bellows material between the lens panel and grip.

Not only is this likely to interfere with the rise / fall mechanism on the rear standard, but it will significantly limit the amount of tilt and swing that can be applied on the front standard as well.

Fortunately, Cambo does offer a single-pleat bellows for use with wide-angle lenses and this will at least partially address these issues by reducing the amount of bellows material that ends up being sandwiched between the Actus and A7RIV bodies compared to the three-pleat standard bellows.

And Yes, I realize Cambo didn't design the Actus to be used with 35 mm format bodies and 35 mm format lenses, but they do intend for it to be used with APS-C and m4/3 format bodies and 35 mm format lenses, and if this trend of increasing grip depth on mirrorless camera bodies continues, this may eventually become an issue with those bodies as well.

And I also realize that my particular combinations of needs and wants makes me very much outlier among the potential buyers of a Sony camera body, so I can't say any of this comes as a surprise to me. However, it sure would be nice if Sony recognized that not one form-factor works best for all photographers -- and especially not when the grip becomes larger and its depth becomes deeper every time they update it! -- and offer an alternative model that is flatter across the front. You know, like Fuji does across its camera range...

Needless to say, this is a long-winded rant pointing out that not everybody is pleased by Sony's decision to increase the size and depth of the grip on its A7R-series bodies with each succeeding generation. The fact that the A7RIV body is also 200g heavier than the original A7R (which represents an almost 50 percent increase ... oink, oink!) is not particularly welcome, either.

Mind you, I'm very happy with the performance of my A7R and although I would like to replace it someday, with the direction Sony appears to be headed, I fear that might never be possible. :(
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Looks like a nice and also logical development. I see that they have raised and (probably) improved some of the buttons, like the AF-on, which is good. What I don't understand is why they are still leaving the area to the left of the viewfinder open. Most cameras, including the A9, utilise that space, and this being one of the smallest full fram mirrorless cameras on the market, I would have thought that using every bit of space is a good idea.

Edit:
I looked at some of the portrait photos taken with the camera at dpr. Even considering the fact that most of the dpr staff are lousy photographers, I'm surprised to see a slight blur in and around the eyes of some of the subjects. With all the technology in this camera and not least the heavy marketing of eye focus, 5 way stabilisation etc., I would have thought that even dpr staff could produce sharp images, but apparently not. Image 46 is one of them, but not the worst.
 
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PeterA

Well-known member
Looks like a great camera to me - but larger chips render differently to smaller chips so I don't see it is a MF killer- I do see it is another 'Sony goes BAM' to 35mm format cameras - including any brand - my hands are just too big for its form factor. Sony shooters are lucky - the company continues to lead the market.
 

raminolta

Member
I may be in the minority but I’m pretty underwhelmed by this camera. I’m sure it’ll be great... they usually all are but it sort of answers a question that few were really asking.

High points are the EVF (for those ultra sensitive to EVF’s) and the Dual UHS-II slots. Low points for me are that it didn’t receive the AF system from the A9 with 93% coverage, it’s probably still 4k30, and the body isn’t larger which is sort of pushing me further away from the system in a way.

I’ll reserved final judgement for actual hands-on time but I’m really not excited at all about this camera to be 100% honest.
I am glad they didn't make the camera any bigger. I believe increasing the camera size is NOT what the vast majority of Sony users want. For those who want a larger camera, there are plenty of alternative options in the market including the mirrorless market (Panasonic).
 

algrove

Well-known member
Looks like no ES nor EFCS which is a surprise to me even though on the B&H video the Sony person says shutter vibration is minimized. Also no GPS.

But all the rest is impressive including over 200MP in pixel shift mode. Do any of you know if one MUST use the Sony software for pixel shift?
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I am glad they didn't make the camera any bigger. I believe increasing the camera size is NOT what the vast majority of Sony users want. For those who want a larger camera, there are plenty of alternative options in the market including the mirrorless market (Panasonic).
I’m sure there are those that want a larger body option in the Sony ecosystem. Yes we could all buy into multiple systems but the reality is that perhaps people largely enjoy and want to stick with the Sony ecosystem they’re already invested into. To explain, I’m not saying I want all Sony bodies to grow. I just want a larger option for the times when I have a Sony Zeiss or G-Master attached to the camera. The current size is fine with my 55/1.8 on it. Not so much with a 70-200GM and grip as it approaches uncomfortable over time.

I prefer to not have to dump everything that I own (though I will if a system no longer works for me) and I’m sure Sony doesn’t want to lose my business in the future. I’m not the person that goes to Best Buy to purchase the A6000 and the kit lens without adding more lenses. I’m the person they can earn 10’s of thousands from over several years.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
I’m sure there are those that want a larger body option in the Sony ecosystem. Yes we could all buy into multiple systems but the reality is that perhaps people largely enjoy and want to stick with the Sony ecosystem they’re already invested into. To explain, I’m not saying I want all Sony bodies to grow. I just want a larger option for the times when I have a Sony Zeiss or G-Master attached to the camera. The current size is fine with my 55/1.8 on it. Not so much with a 70-200GM and grip as it approaches uncomfortable over time.
*Ding!*

One size does not fit all, but Sony (and other mirrorless camera manufacturers, except Fuji) don't seem to care. They have no problem offering a range of different cameras, which is great and I support this, but when it comes to offering a camera with a different form-factor, they simply aren't interested.

If this doesn't change soon, then I will have no choice but to vote with my feet and find happiness elsewhere... :(
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
*Ding!*

One size does not fit all, but Sony (and other mirrorless camera manufacturers, except Fuji) don't seem to care. They have no problem offering a range of different cameras, which is great and I support this, but when it comes to offering a camera with a different form-factor, they simply aren't interested.

If this doesn't change soon, then I will have no choice but to vote with my feet and find happiness elsewhere... :(
I agree and I think there’s room for an A6 (FF Rangefinder style form factor) especially for those that love using the excellent Zeiss Loxia or Voigtlander primes... and maybe an A8/Alpha Pro style body as described in other threads.

Truthfully with ISO becoming less of an issue, perhaps some of the variant models can be combined. Perhaps there doesn’t need to be a base model, a resolution model, and a high sensitivity model... perhaps there doesn’t need to be an A6000/6300/6400/6500 being sold alongside one another going forward. Maybe there can be a high end crop A5, Rangefinder style A6, all around A7, high res A8, compact sports/outdoors A9, flagship video Ax model, and flagship photo Alpha Pro model.
 

cerett

Member
Guy hangs out on the Sony forum on the Fred Miranda website. He uses the screen name "GMPhotography". He's rarely spotted nowadays on GetDPI. I don't think he's posted here in years.

Joe
I thought Guy was one of the super administrators of GetDPI and very involved in past workshops, right?
 

Pradeep

Member
I agree and I think there’s room for an A6 (FF Rangefinder style form factor) especially for those that love using the excellent Zeiss Loxia or Voigtlander primes... and maybe an A8/Alpha Pro style body as described in other threads.

Truthfully with ISO becoming less of an issue, perhaps some of the variant models can be combined. Perhaps there doesn’t need to be a base model, a resolution model, and a high sensitivity model... perhaps there doesn’t need to be an A6000/6300/6400/6500 being sold alongside one another going forward. Maybe there can be a high end crop A5, Rangefinder style A6, all around A7, high res A8, compact sports/outdoors A9, flagship video Ax model, and flagship photo Alpha Pro model.
Tre, I think one has to revisit the reasons why so many of us chose to go with Sony especially people like me who have been with the brand from the NEX5 days. Being only 5'5" and not very muscular I've always had problems with heavy gear, but then we are all victims of our own ambitions no?:eek:

In my search for the holy grail in photography, I've tried to put together a system that is small, lightweight, high resolution, with superfast AF. In terms of the camera body, I guess the a9 and now the a7r4 are perfect (almost). Lenses are another question for the laws of physics do come into play and yet, I think the newer SuperTeles (from all the makes) are amazing.

I've tried the Leica (M series) and the Phase One, then the Pentax-645Z during my long journey, but nothing has come close to the comfort, satisfaction and pure joy of using the Sony cameras and lenses. In just a few years they have built a huge ecosystem that has now become the envy of all the established Brands. yes, I may sound like a Fanboy, but my quest has always been for the best (from my pov) and I am glad things are turning out the way they are.

Therefore, I am super happy that they are not going back to the days of the big 1DX type bodies which were so unwieldy for people like me. We all look out for our own needs don't we? ;)
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Tre, I think one has to revisit the reasons why so many of us chose to go with Sony especially people like me who have been with the brand from the NEX5 days. Being only 5'5" and not very muscular I've always had problems with heavy gear, but then we are all victims of our own ambitions no?:eek:

In my search for the holy grail in photography, I've tried to put together a system that is small, lightweight, high resolution, with superfast AF. In terms of the camera body, I guess the a9 and now the a7r4 are perfect (almost). Lenses are another question for the laws of physics do come into play and yet, I think the newer SuperTeles (from all the makes) are amazing.

I've tried the Leica (M series) and the Phase One, then the Pentax-645Z during my long journey, but nothing has come close to the comfort, satisfaction and pure joy of using the Sony cameras and lenses. In just a few years they have built a huge ecosystem that has now become the envy of all the established Brands. yes, I may sound like a Fanboy, but my quest has always been for the best (from my pov) and I am glad things are turning out the way they are.

Therefore, I am super happy that they are not going back to the days of the big 1DX type bodies which were so unwieldy for people like me. We all look out for our own needs don't we? ;)
I can respect that but I didn’t choose Sony specifically for the small size alone. I chose it for the capability, I chose the company as an industry disruptor, I chose it for the accurate color, I chose it for the affordable flexibility that it gave me when there were no other FFF Mirrorless options, and I chose it because I believe in the overall direction of the company more than I do most of their competition with a few notable exceptions.

Im 6’3” so size isn’t necessarily my concern and as I said, I’m not suggesting that Sony eliminate small options but rather add some larger options for those that do care about it. There are times where I love the size like when I’m traveling or am on vacation... but there are times where I wish for a larger body like say when I shoot the occasional wedding. Like you, I’ve been a Sony user since the NEX5 days and I shot on the A-Mount as a backup to my Leica M for telephoto needs. So yeah I’m pretty committed to sony but the last few years have had me considering a move that I’m trying to prevent.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
*Ding!*

One size does not fit all, but Sony (and other mirrorless camera manufacturers, except Fuji) don't seem to care. They have no problem offering a range of different cameras, which is great and I support this, but when it comes to offering a camera with a different form-factor, they simply aren't interested.

If this doesn't change soon, then I will have no choice but to vote with my feet and find happiness elsewhere... :(
The battery grips help a lot. I use larger cameras now, but when I did µ43 and A7II, I always had the grip attached, or else my last two fingers felt lost in space.

Matt
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
The battery grips help a lot. I use larger cameras now, but when I did µ43 and A7II, I always had the grip attached, or else my last two fingers felt lost in space.
I understand and have absolutely no issues with any size and shape of battery grip so long as it can be removed when it's not needed or gets in the way. :)
 

seb

Member
About the size: I'm also one with bigger hands and I would be happy about a better grip. IMO it don't have to be a bigger camera but a better grip. To judge if the a7RIV can fullfill that, I'll wait until I have the new model in MY hands.

About the features: I don't have the a9 nor a7RIII. For me (with an a7RII) there are A LOT of great new features in the a7RIV. Especially the matured AF system (which is in the a9/a7RIII already) will be usefull in many of my shooting situations.

But it's often the small things that makes the new one shine:
- I'm looking forward to the 61MP. When shooting locations for example. In these cases it's not about a better picture but more information.
- The new aspect ratios are nice. Shooting pictures for a website, instagram or even to hang them up a wall often starts with the decision how the pictures will be presented.
- Ergonomics: Sony redesigned the grip for the RIV. I will come to a conclusion about "camera fits to seb" when I can get one into my hands. But I'm looking forward to.
- better weather sealing. The a7RII went two times to reparation. Once because a button jammed and once because the shutter was defective in cold weather. Then the days I was hiking hours in pouring rain and the camera just stopped working until it dried.
- Redesigned body: Better haptic on all the buttons. It may not sound as much but I'm sure I don't want go back after a while I u
- improved AF in video: I hardly shoot video because I'm very bad with MF in video. Maybe I'll get more into it with the new features.
 
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Pradeep

Member
I can respect that but I didn’t choose Sony specifically for the small size alone. I chose it for the capability, I chose the company as an industry disruptor, I chose it for the accurate color, I chose it for the affordable flexibility that it gave me when there were no other FFF Mirrorless options, and I chose it because I believe in the overall direction of the company more than I do most of their competition with a few notable exceptions.

Im 6’3” so size isn’t necessarily my concern and as I said, I’m not suggesting that Sony eliminate small options but rather add some larger options for those that do care about it. There are times where I love the size like when I’m traveling or am on vacation... but there are times where I wish for a larger body like say when I shoot the occasional wedding. Like you, I’ve been a Sony user since the NEX5 days and I shot on the A-Mount as a backup to my Leica M for telephoto needs. So yeah I’m pretty committed to sony but the last few years have had me considering a move that I’m trying to prevent.
Fair points, all. But I think all the brands are now trying to get on the mirrorless wagon and future direction seems to be towards small(er) bodies. Whether these are ergonomically suited to people with larger hands remains to be seen. I suppose one could design a body that is small and yet easy to use for everyone, but I suspect real estate becomes more precious the smaller the body gets and therefore harder to implement all the controls.

We all want the camera to have every possible option that suits us and yet be of the perfect size for our own physical attributes. Combine that with certain specific requirements that matter a lot to some of us (somebody wanted a three-way articulating screen as top priority) and you end up with a pretty darned good camera that will make many people ecstatic, but won't please everyone.

Small size too can only go so far. I for one would not be interested in the likes of the new Sigma FF - way too small even for me.

The one thing that seems to be obvious to me, the days of the full-sized 1DX/1DS type bodies are over.
 
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