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Back to the roots – the timeless dilemma: 43 or 47

iczek

iczek

Well-known member
After many years, I’ve returned to large format, but in digital form. My adventure with Shen-Hao, Tachihara, Graflex Speed, etc., ended a good 15 years ago. After being enamored with the convenience of full frame, I decided, in my older years, to return to a technical camera — the ALPA — and see what the Hasselblad 907x 100C can do :)

Apologies for the lengthy introduction, but I’m trying to justify the question I’m about to ask.
I’m looking for a lens to photograph landscapes and some architecture with the setup mentioned above. I’ve revisited the lenses I used to own and read tons of reviews about how analog large format glass performs with digital backs. My attention is now focused on two models that have already been widely discussed on this forum:
  • Schneider-Kreuznach APO-Digitar 47mm f/5.6 XL MC ALPA
  • Schneider-Kreuznach APO-DIGITAR 43mm XL
The difference in focal length isn’t a problem for me. I’m more interested in gathering information on whether color cast is potentially more noticeable in one lens versus the other? And which of the two is optically better corrected for digital use?

I’d really appreciate any suggestions.
 
The 43 XL is a legendary lens. It is sharper and a successor if you so will to the 47 XL which is a crossover lens for early digital backs with lower megapixel counts and especially film where resolution matters less. It is soft towards the edges, while the 43 XL is brilliantly sharp all over. Its amazing, but needs post work.

Especially with 100 MPX you will notice a difference with modern digital backs.

This said, the 907x will exhibit color cast and especially you will see the PDAF lines with SK glass. That's why it would be better to look for a 40 HR in case that's an option if you want hassle-free operation with that back.

The 43XL in Alpa is very rare and expensive with used prices varying anywhere between 6-10k while the 47XL, as it is not sought after and lower resolution, goes for around 2k-2.5k.

The 40 HR is extremely sharp and can shift a lot and you won't see the PDAF array. On the 43XL and 47XL you will see these PDAF issues alongside color cast as soon as you shift towards the edges of the SK's huge image circle - at that point the angle becomes so steep that it creates problems with the modern Hassy back.
 
@iczek The Hasselblad CFV 100C is a BSI sensor. Colour cast will be dramatically less than on the 50 MP chip.

The PDAF stripes are annoying on shift with the CFV 100C, but the software correction tool that former member @mristuccia has developed handles it nicely.

@iczek, if you're going digital you should use the Medium Format forum. That's where everyone who uses this stuff hangs out.
 
I have an IQ4 - but note that there's still quite a bit of color cast with SK wides when shifted. I see only a very light color cast with the 40 HR.

What is your budget and do you need rectilinearity?

The PDAF issue you need to figure out if you want to deal with it ...

You could also cut it short: get the IQ260 - the best back ever made for SK wides. No problems, filmic highlight rolloff and colors.
 
rdeloe said:
@iczek The Hasselblad CFV 100C is a BSI sensor. Colour cast will be dramatically less than on the 50 MP chip.
The PDAF stripes are annoying on shift with the CFV 100C, but the software correction tool that former member @mristuccia has developed handles it nicely.
@iczek, if you're going digital you should use the Medium Format forum. That's where everyone who uses this stuff hangs out.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your opinions! Appreciate.
PS
By the way, I thought this is medium format forum, isn' it? I can move the thread if needed but I thought thi sis right place for that as asking for LF lenses...
 
Paul Spinnler said:
The 43 XL is a legendary lens. It is sharper and a successor if you so will to the 47 XL which is a crossover lens for early digital backs with lower megapixel counts and especially film where resolution matters less. It is soft towards the edges, while the 43 XL is brilliantly sharp all over. Its amazing, but needs post work.

Especially with 100 MPX you will notice a difference with modern digital backs.

This said, the 907x will exhibit color cast and especially you will see the PDAF lines with SK glass. That's why it would be better to look for a 40 HR in case that's an option if you want hassle-free operation with that back.
The 43XL in Alpa is very rare and expensive with used prices varying anywhere between 6-10k while the 47XL, as it is not sought after and lower resolution, goes for around 2k-2.5k.
The 40 HR is extremely sharp and can shift a lot and you won't see the PDAF array. On the 43XL and 47XL you will see these PDAF issues alongside color cast as soon as you shift towards the edges of the SK's huge image circle - at that point the angle becomes so steep that it creates problems with the modern Hassy back.
Click to expand...


Paul,

Thank you very much for this incredibly important information, which actually answers a lot of my concerns. I'm very grateful to you. Some of the things you mentioned are completely new to me, like the issue with PDAF, so I especially appreciate that you took the time to explain it!

The 40XL is unfortunately out of my price range, but the 43 seems very interesting. I thought the 47XL was the successor to the 43, but as I understand it, it's actually the other way around.

Regarding IQ260... sorry but I have 907x100C :) So, no chance to but another one :)
PDAF - as this is new topic for me, I need to handle it :)
 
iczek said:
Thanks for your opinions! Appreciate.
PS
By the way, I thought this is medium format forum, isn' it? I can move the thread if needed but I thought thi sis right place for that as asking for LF lenses...
Click to expand...

You're most welcome. There are lots of people here at GetDPI who can give you solid advice.

You posted in the "Large Format" forum. It's much less active, and is mostly film photographers using 4x5 and up. The digital medium format crowd that uses technical cameras and digital view cameras is in the one called "Medium Format".
 
Yes the 40 HR is actually often cheaper to be found than a 43 XL ... the 43 XL in Alpa point has sold for up to 10k USD, but prices vary wildly, you might also find one for 6000 EUR etc. same with the 40 HR - the tendency is that they're cheaper than 43 because they're in production still and in the end it is supply demand, yo umight also find a photographer dissolving his kit and then a 40 HR for less.

The issue right now is that SK is out of production and 43 XL is last generation and a lens revered by architectural photographers and the 40 HR is getting more and more expensive as Rodenstock increased its prices towards Cambo, Alpa etc. over the years. But in the end it is supply and demand.

The 47XL is one of the earliest Alpa lenses, similar to the Grandagons 45 / 55 which were also sold at the same time. It is one generation before the high res lenses which were designed for higher and high resolution digital backs.

We are talking early 2000s vs. 2010s in the case of 47X vs. 43 XL. So for 100 MPX on a crop sensor 43 and 40 HR are preferred.
 
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iczek said:
The 40XL is unfortunately out of my price range, but the 43 seems very interesting. I thought the 47XL was the successor to the 43, but as I understand it, it's actually the other way around.
Click to expand...

@John Leathwick uses a 47mm on his F-Universalis with GFX 100S (same basic sensor as in the Hasselblad CFV 100C). He's quite happy. He can confirm if he checks in, but I think his is the one labelled "Super Angulon". Apparently the APO-Digitar 47mm and the Super-Angulon 47mm MC are identical. I haven't used the 43mm, but everyone says it is better. However, if you can't find one and you want to get started, you might do OK with the APO-Digitar or Super-Angulon 47mm.
 
rdeloe said:
You're most welcome. There are lots of people here at GetDPI who can give you solid advice.

You posted in the "Large Format" forum. It's much less active, and is mostly film photographers using 4x5 and up. The digital medium format crowd that uses technical cameras and digital view cameras is in the one called "Medium Format".
Click to expand...
Oh... I see it now. It was my mistake, and I'm very sorry to all the forum members. It wasn't intentional. I'll keep that in mind going forward, but I do hope this thread can remain here.
 
iczek said:
Oh... I see it now. It was my mistake, and I'm very sorry to all the forum members. It wasn't intentional. I'll keep that in mind going forward, but I do hope this thread can remain here.
Click to expand...

No worries! I wasn't trying to be the forum police. Rather, your messages will not be seen by nearly as many people if you post in Large Format. There's some cross-over, but not a lot.
 
rdeloe said:
@John Leathwick uses a 47mm on his F-Universalis with GFX 100S (same basic sensor as in the Hasselblad CFV 100C). He's quite happy. He can confirm if he checks in, but I think his is the one labelled "Super Angulon". Apparently the APO-Digitar 47mm and the Super-Angulon 47mm MC are identical. I haven't used the 43mm, but everyone says it is better. However, if you can't find one and you want to get started, you might do OK with the APO-Digitar or Super-Angulon 47mm.
Click to expand...

Yes, as Rob indicates, I'm a fan of the 47mm, which I use with a GFX 100s and F-Universalis. I had tried a Super-Angulon 47mm (non-XL) about two years ago, but it exhibited quite strong field curvature and I returned it. Interacting with Rob and others over other lens options, we became increasingly aware that such issues could sometimes be addressed by adjusting the inter-cell distances using shims. Given this learning, I took the plunge on a lens labelled as a Digitar 5.6/47 that was in a Schneider electronic shutter. Once I had rehoused the cells into a Schneider B-0 shutter - an aperture only shutter from an enlarger lens - and added a couple of shims it works very well.

As Paul has indicated it is very sharp centrally, but declines a little in the outer part of the image circle. With my normal rotafoot camera setup I can use lateral shift of up to 9mm getting excellent results. If I use an alternative camera to bellows attachment, I can shift it a lot further, with excellent results out to about 10-15mm of lateral shift, and useable out to 20mm if one is prepared for the larger file to compensate for the slightly lower resolution in the outer frame. However, an LCC is required in post to correct the vignetting and mild colour cast. The test image below was taken with +/- 20mm of shift.

Digitar 47 20mm shift small.jpg

Later Digitar 47's were labelled as Apo-Digitars, but I can find no evidence of what changes in configuration, if any, were applied by S-K. This may have been just a name change, or there may have been some subtle tweaks. It would be great to put the two versions side by side and compare, but the chances of finding an Apo-Digitar 47mm in NZ to compare with are almost zero.

-John
 
John
Many thanks for all these details and information you shared. As I have an option to test both 47 apo-digitar xl amd 43xl, I would do that as soon I find adapter for my Alpa 12stc and 907x :):)
It looks like finding a 47mm Apo-Digitar lens in New Zealand is just as hard as finding an Alpa adapter in Poland 😉
 
Dear forum members,

After receiving a lot of advice from you, and many private messages from some truly amazing photographers here, I've decided to go with the 43XL! :)
As soon as I complete the setup for my ALPA 12STC, I'll be sure to share my first field tests here on the forum.
Thanks again to everyone who took the time to help - it's truly appreciated!
 
Great choice - did you find one??? It is the holy grail for architectural photography. The 47 is more a collectible, it has been superceded by the 43 XL. Also in the press releases of that time, the 43 XL, alongside the 28 XL, were heralded as next-gen production method SK lenses, with unrivaled sharpness and IC within their focal lengths.

43 XL was my first lens - truly exceptional.
 
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Yes. I have localy an option not only for 43xl but also: SK Digitar 47xl, SK 48 Helvetar, SK 24 Digitar, SK HR 28 Digaron-S, SK 38/5.6 XL Angulon, Rodenstock 35/4.5 Apo-Alpar.
All of them in Alpa mount. All in like new condition.
Maybe some of you will be interested. i cannot take them all ;)
 
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Pay attention that these are not the stolen Alpa lenses which landed in Poland - there was a robbery many years ago in Switzerland at the Alpa HQ and some of the lenses surfaced in Poland. These are globally tracked with serial numbers and Alpa to this day is hunting them down whenever they come to service etc.

Would check the serial numbers before buying. If they ever get serviced they may get kept or get more in trouble.

If someone shows you lenses which are 15 years old in new condition, it is 99.9% from the robbery.

A lot of the stolen ones were SK. There was an online shop that started selling them and distribution via forum is the main way they try to get the cash out.
 
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Isn't it time for us to compile a technical camera list of the best lenses?

I love my 23HR, 32HR, and 90HR combo, but I also own a bunch of Schneiders that I'd love to hear about.

I realise that the Rodie/Schneider lenses with good shutters are now worth a bunch. (Especially with my IQ4150 I never need to use the shutter any more)
 
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