Thank you everyone for your invaluable input. I have another question for you experts. Since I am thinking of getting a Rosie 40mm for the Cambo, what would be a great quality second lens? I was looking at two , both Rodies, the 70mm and the 90mm. Any thoughts on which one is the best optically and from a creative perspective?
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Cambo WRS 1600 vs X2D II for Landscapes
- Thread starter isteveb
- Start date
I bought a used Schneider Kreuznach 90mm APO Digitar lens as my second lens along with my Rodie 40mm HR. It’s way less expensive than the Rodie 90mm and is very small. There’s a thread here on the forum discussing its performance, which is quite impressive: https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/90mm-4-5-apo-digitar.47808/page-3#post-787775
rdeloe
Well-known member
Shameless plug for a nice APO-Digitar 90/5.6 in aperture-only B-0 housing currently for sale on the forum...
Either of those two lenses you nominated - the Rodenstock Digaron-W 70mm and Digaron-SW 90mm - would make a 'great quality second lens'.
The MTF graphs from Rodenstock indicate that the SW 90mm lens is sharper out to a wider image field than the W 70mm lens. If you intend stitching frames to make panoramas, especially say three in landscape format, the SW 90mm would be the better lens.
The downsides, however, are that the SW 90mm lens is larger, heavier and requires use of the Cambo WRS 48mm rear spacer. If you're changing from the 40mm lens to the SW 90mm, you need to change not only the lens itself, but also remove the digital back, cap it and place it in your bag, pick up and attach the rear spacer, and then mount the digital back onto the rear spacer. I use the WRS 17mm and 48mm rear spacers routinely and am well practiced at doing so, but the changeover must be done mindfully.
The Schneider (SK) Apo-Digitar 90mm lens has a shorter FFD (flange focal distance) than the SW 90mm lens and is normally mounted by Cambo using front extension only, making use of the 48mm rear spacer unnecessary. Although the image field (circle) of the SK 90mm lens is smaller than that of the SW 90mm, the SK 90mm has the advantages of being much smaller and lighter and having (in stark contrast to the SW 90mm) almost zero distortion. You mention wanting to shoot architecture in addition to landscape, so the distortion is relevant.
Which longer lens is best for anyone working in the field usually comes down to a combination of optical qualities, the practicalities of size and weight and operation, and the specific purpose to which you intend to use it. Everyone has their own preferences, and part of the fun is working out which feels right for you.
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Yes, like all SK lenses based on the Apo-Symmar design, the SK Apo-Digitar 5.6/72mm has almost zero distortion. And almost zero CA (chromatic aberration).
My favourite lens for architecture, however, is the SK Apo-Digitar 5.6/60XL. Its 90° field of view produces an image field at f/11 of 120mm, meaning I can use rear fall to the 25.5mm limit of my WRS 1200 plus a whole lot of lateral shift after swinging to reduce the ship's prow effect on near corners.
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I don't want to get too far off track here but can anyone tell me if they use the Alpa 12 STC and how it compares to the Cambo WRS 1600? I know the the Alpa is lighter and more expensive but what are your impressions of using these two systems and their adaptability in the field. Is one easier ti use oner the other? Are the lenses any different quality wise between the two (Rodenstock for both?)
Steve Hendrix
Well-known member
There are some configuration differences, but the lenses used are the same with the same results.
But you've selected 2 non-comparable camera bodies from each system. Cambo WRS 1600 would be directly comparable to Alpa 12 Plus. And Alpa STC would be directly comparable to Cambo WCR 400. But to go forward in your case, below are some essential considerations in how they differ:
Alpa STC has X OR Y Shift (shift only in one direction, not in both) {like Cambo WRC 400}
Alpa STC is then naturally, smaller/lighter
Alpa STC (like most Alpa's) has geared shift but also manual shift (gearing is released to slide shift)
Alpa STC gearing is more precise
Alpa STC square lens mount can be mounted in multiple orientations, so lens controls can be any side you choose
Cambo WRS 1600 has X AND Y shift (shift can be applied in 2 directions, on the same axis, in the same capture) {like Alpa 12 Plus}
Cambo WTRS 1600 is then naturally, bigger/heavier
Cambo WRS 1600 has geared shift only
Cambo WRS 1600 gearing strikes a nice balance between precision and speed (too precise can be too slow)
Cambo WRS 1600 has in-camera rotation (digital back doesn't have to be removed)
They're both 2 of my favorite tech camera bodies.
Steve Hendrix
[email protected]
Steve--I am considering the Alpa mostly due to weight and flexibility in the system (as I understand it). I know it can be considerably more expensive (especially with tariffs) but what is the availability for Alpa's vs Cambo on all the lenses and parts. Are the lead times extensive or readily shippable from the respective partners?
Steve Hendrix
Well-known member
Weight and flexibility vary from model to model.
A Cambo WRC 400 weighs less than an Alpa 12 Plus. An Alpa 12 STC weighs less than a Cambo WRS 1600.
If your primary considerations (between Alpa and Cambo tech cameras) are size/weight, then you would consider Cambo WRC 400 and Alpa 12 STC.
For me, the primary consideration first is X+Y shift in the same capture. But not everyone feels that strongly and many are happy with just X or Y shift only.
Alpa is yes, unfortunately in the USA right now, going to be more expensive than Cambo. Most system components are readily available at CI. We stock quite a bit and anything we need to order usually comes in within a week or so.
Steve Hendrix
[email protected]
The Alpa 12 STC, with cut-down single-axis shift functionality, weighs 590g.
The Cambo WRS 1600, with full dual X-Y axis functionality weighs 920g. My WRS 1200 with optional Arca-fit foot weighs 816g.
I shoot architecture and use BOTH X and Y axis shifts on almost every single capture. Single axis shift would be irritatingly restrictive. For example, with single axis shift, once you've used rear fall to get the top of the building into the frame, THAT'S IT. There is no lateral shift available for further adjustments, such as recentering the subject after swinging the camera and lens. You are stuck with always pointing the camera and lens directly at the subject.
Cambo manufactures its own products in state-of-the art CNC machines and has an extensive stock of parts and accessories for legacy products. Alpa does not.
What 'flexibility in the system' are you seeking?
Reginald Fluggelding
Active member
And are open and communicative. They mounted an Apo-Symmar 100mm f/5.6 MC for me last year in a custom length helical mount — I worked out I could get full shift with a semi-short barrel mount and a 17 mm back spacer rather than the regular short barrel and 48 mm back spacer (fits in my case better and has a nicer balance). They were very accomodating and the price was very reasonable.
I'd love an Alpa for the slide shift ability but I've never had a problem with the precision of the Cambo movements (I have WRS 1200, later model with standard Arca mount foot). You do generally have to get Cambo to make/mount lenses if you have a bare lens but prices are reasonable and turnaround quick (I did get a third party mount for my 55 Sinaron via HK, and it works but isn't quite up to the Cambo standard). The new in house Cambo helicals are very nice too.
I ordered an item from Cambo through my local Phase One dealer here in Australia prior to my departure for Europe a month ago and received it in four days.
On the Cambo WRS mount, the lens controls can be repositioned to one's preference by simply unscrewing the three screws securing the focus helicoid to the WRS plate, rotating the helicoid plus lens to another 120° position, and replacing the screws.
For example, this enables the open/close switch on the Copal 0 to be relocated away from where large thumbs strike it while focusing, particularly on compact lenses such as the SK 35XL.
Yes, you heard it from me first
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Alpa can deliver all its parts, but not helicals for vintage SK glass and as a result also not mounts for vintage SK glass. Vintage SK glass cannot be bought new, so the only case not covered is if you want to franken mount a non-native Alpa SK lens onto an Alpa. There are however Chinese manufacturers who successfully copied the SK helical, but this is not officially supported, but can be found online.
Alpa produces its products via Seitz, which has the most state-of-the-art CNC machines available producing all parts down to a spec of 1/100mm (micron level) of precision or more tight. In fact, their production quality is legendarily "Swiss" (in the tradition of precision mechanical manufacturing). Seitz' main business are ski piste observation cameras which generate significant recurring revenue as their systems are used globally on many ski pistes and they are newoend for all weather 365 availability of their systems which requires extremely high build quality.
Also Alpa uses rail systems which offer significant benefits in terms of planarity, speed of use and provide repeatable marked shift rails which allows you to store presets of LCC corrections in C1 so you don't need to do a new one each time. Cambo uses two plates which move against each other meaning shifting is a lot slower and the plates over time can sag a little under the weight of an attached back. I have an XT as well and for some lenses it starts at -0.5mm ...
Also they can replace individual elements of a camera which means their products last forever, effectively.
The only difference between Alpa and Cambo in terms of parts is that Cambo produces its own helicals which means they can mount vintage SK glass.
All currently available lenses can be mounted.
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
On the Cambo WRS mount, the lens controls can be repositioned to one's preference by simply unscrewing the three screws securing the focus helicoid to the WRS plate, rotating the helicoid plus lens to another 120° position, and replacing the screws.
For example, this enables the open/close switch on the Copal 0 to be relocated away from where large thumbs strike it while focusing, particularly on compact lenses such as the SK 35XL.
Yes, you heard it from me first
Alpa's mount is fully symmetric - you can rotate the lens in all four directions which allows you to position the controls how you like within seconds and in addition you can do test shots and by comparing say the top right edge you can quickly test if a lens is de-centered ... this makes checking lens quality a breeze.
No unscrewing needed, just re-fastening of the lens in the mount after rotating.
Testing symmetry of a lens is crucial especially with older lenses like used SK glass. I am not sure how you'd do it with a Cambo camera easily, but I suppose you could rotate the whole camera multiple times, but still it is not easy.
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
The classic combo is: 40 and 70 HR. 90 HR is often considered too tight and is mainly useful if you want to stitch or if you really like short tele perspectives.
70 HR shifts 22.5mm without vignetting on a normal body. It is awesome and perfect with the 40.
Both manufacturers products great cameras, I'd suggest you also consider besides total system cost the breadth of bodies.
If you want a Pano specific camera, for example, Alpa has a super wide body no one else has. So its also about the total gamut of systems available.
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
There are many practical differences stemming from the rail vs. glide system approach. It impacts speed of use, repeatability of fixed increments as Alpa has detents if needed and the lenses are the same.
Best is if you try a camera in hand from each company - you'll quickly see and feel the difference in haptics.