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CFV II 50c and rodenstock 28 with shift anyone ?

jotloob

Subscriber Member
I don't have a back with sensor size 33x44 mm but I have the HR-DIGARON-S 28mm and a HASSELBLAD CFV39 and CFV50 . Sensor size 37x49 mm .

Here an excerpt from the RODENSTOCK technical data sheet .

HR DIGARON S.jpg

You can see , that you have 11/9 mm shift (V/H) when using a 33x44 mm sensor .
That is not spectacular , but far better than for the 37x49 sensor size .
I have tested the given shift amounts for the 37x49 sensor and found it good .

BTW , I find the HR-DIGARON-S 28mm a stunning lens . This lens was my first ALPA lens .
 

Alkibiades

Active member
With your 33x44 mm sensor the Digaraon -S 28 mm will be a great combo.
This will be also with the Digaron-S 23 mm and 35 mm ( Digaron-s or Apo Sironar HR- are the same lenses).

But not with schneider 35xl. The problem will be here that you cant remove the color cast.
Schneider lenses have too strong color cast with 50MP/100MP Sony sensor,
it will work great with the bigger and older Kodak 39/50 MP sensors, and the Dalsa 60MP sensor ( but not with 80 MP Dalsa). The problem are the Microlenses on these sensors.
With the new 150 MP Sony sensor all schneider works great.
I am waiting for a new 100 MP 33x44 mm sensor- this would be a great option.
 
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Hausen

Member
I am also waiting for my CFV 50cII. So are you saying all Schneider lenses have color cast issues or just the wider lenses?

With your 33x44 mm sensor the Digaraon -S 28 mm will be a great combo.
This will be also with the Digaron-S 23 mm and 35 mm ( Digaron-s or Apo Sironar HR- are the same lenses).

But not with schneider 35xl. The problem will be here that you cant remove the color cast.
Schneider lenses have too strong color cast with 50MP/100MP Sony sensor,
it will work great with the bigger and older Kodak 39/50 MP sensors, and the Dalsa 60MP sensor ( but not with 80 MP Dalsa). The problem are the Microlenses on these sensors.
With the new 150 MP Sony sensor all schneider works great.
I am waiting for a new 100 MP 33x44 mm sensor- this would be a great option.
 

diggles

Member
I wonder if someone test the CFV II 50c and rodenstock 28 with shift ?
Have you had an opportunity to try the CFV II 50c with the Rodenstock Digaron-S 28mm? I've been wondering about that combo as well.

Are you planning on using it with a pancake camera? or a different setup?

I'm using the same CFV II 50c back on a Cambo Actus DB and am wondering if it works with the 28mm. The Cambo Actus lens compatibility table says that it won't work, but I've heard that this info is very conservative and not necessarily correct. Based on my best calculations, and the numbers from the Rodenstock brochure, the 28mm focuses to infinity at about 16mm away from the sensor which is possible to achieve with the Cambo Actus DB setup.

Does anybody have real world experience with this combo?

BTW , I find the HR-DIGARON-S 28mm a stunning lens . This lens was my first ALPA lens .
Hey Jotloob, I've been searching for sample images from the Rodenstock Digaron-S 28mm, but have come up empty. Would you be willing to share some? Raw files would be ideal if possible :)

Thanks!
Warren
 
The Digaron 28 works fine with an Actus-DB2 (even a Digaron-23 will focus to infinity). It actually gives more clearance between front and rear standard than the 35xl. For use with our WRS system we still have one or two Digaron 28 lenses in Copal-0 shutters available.

Richard
 

Paul2660

Active member
If you want more shift than 6mm with the 28mm Rodenstock, you might look at a different lens. The 28mm has a 70mm IC and Rodenstock places a hard stop on the IC in all their glass, which creates a hard vignette on the corners ,which no LCC can remove. Before this hard black edge on certain subjects, blue sky, solid walls beside white, you will tend to see a white band right before the black edge of the vignette. I used to know the optical name of this effect, but have long forgotten it.

You may get a bit more than 6mm on a 50MP 33 x 44 sensor, but the other optical issues I have mentioned will effect the image quality.

The 28mm needs the CF if you are going to shift it also, in fact on center it will add quite a bit relief. The LCC can take some of the the vignetting out but depending on the exposure it will still need to have the CF added.

Color shift is harsh a mentioned already, the LCC process in C1 gets the vast majority out, but since you are using Hasselblad and Phocus I can't comment on how well the color cast will be fixed.

The 35mm XL, if you have a good copy, that is not off center, should do great on the 50MP sensor, albeit, it has to have the CF on every shot, the effect of vignetting without is even worse than the 28mm without it's CF. CF for the 35 is long out of production so make sure you pick up a lens that has one. CF for 28mm is still made and is the same one that is used on the 23mm Rodenstock.

The 90mm IC of the 35XL allows for more shift, but by 8mm, the color cast will start to really show up. The 35XL I used I mainly panned with, and never try to shift it. AIso by 8mm of shift you will start to see smearing as the lens IMO can't really handle the resolution of the sensor with that much shift.

I have used the 28mm and 35XL on the P45+, IQ160, and 260, IQ250, and 150, IQ3100.

The 28mm is very front heavy, and massive, especially with the CF added, the 35XL even with the CF is much lighter and with an Arca mount, shirt pocket sized.

Paul C
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
Have you had an opportunity to try the CFV II 50c with the Rodenstock Digaron-S 28mm? I've been wondering about that combo as well.

Are you planning on using it with a pancake camera? or a different setup?

I'm using the same CFV II 50c back on a Cambo Actus DB and am wondering if it works with the 28mm. The Cambo Actus lens compatibility table says that it won't work, but I've heard that this info is very conservative and not necessarily correct. Based on my best calculations, and the numbers from the Rodenstock brochure, the 28mm focuses to infinity at about 16mm away from the sensor which is possible to achieve with the Cambo Actus DB setup.

Does anybody have real world experience with this combo?



Hey Jotloob, I've been searching for sample images from the Rodenstock Digaron-S 28mm, but have come up empty. Would you be willing to share some? Raw files would be ideal if possible :)

Thanks!
Warren
Warren , I have no shots with the CFV II 50c and the DIGARON-S 28mm yet . The 907x issue kept me busy up to now .
 

Alkibiades

Active member
I own few backs and one of them is the Phase one 250 that have the same sony 50 ml sensor like yours hasselblad 50 c.
This sensor works great with all Rodenstock Digaron-S (Apo Sironar HR) wide angle lenses 23, 28 and 35 mm. You get about 10 mm movements with no strong colour cast issuess and great sharpness even at the courners.
But avoid Schneider wide angle lenses when you use this sensor: Schneider 28 and 35 mm are not usable with these backs. The color cast cant be removed. But they will be great for the hopefully coming some day the new 100 ml sensor that still only Fuji use.
 

diggles

Member
Warren , I have no shots with the CFV II 50c and the DIGARON-S 28mm yet . The 907x issue kept me busy up to now .
Hey Jürgen, sorry to hear you are having an issue with the 907x…

Color shift is harsh a mentioned already, the LCC process in C1 gets the vast majority out, but since you are using Hasselblad and Phocus I can't comment on how well the color cast will be fixed.
Thank you for the in-depth info on these lenses! I've seen some example of the LCC process using Phocus from images taken on a Rodenstock 32HR and it worked well. I have not seen it on the 28mm though, so I couldn't tell you. The size of the lens doesn't bother me much since my plan is to shoot architecture with it and I can usually drive right up to the subject.
 

Alkibiades

Active member
I am also waiting for my CFV 50cII. So are you saying all Schneider lenses have color cast issues or just the wider lenses?
You get the color cast issues with Schneider wide angle only.
The color cast also exist in longer lenses like 43, 47, 60 XL but it can be removed by the software ( phocus and C1).
With 43 xl you will not be able to use full possible movements that the lens allow, becouse the color cast become also to extrem, but 15 mm movements should work well, and thats enough for most work.
28xl and 35 xl have to strong color cast with Sony 50 ml and 100 ml sensors. When you make BW photos only it would work, but not with colors.
 

diggles

Member
The 28mm needs the CF if you are going to shift it also, in fact on center it will add quite a bit relief. The LCC can take some of the the vignetting out but depending on the exposure it will still need to have the CF added.
Hey Paul,

Once you went through the extra trouble were you happy with the results of the 28mm? Do you still use it?

Thanks!
Warren
 

Paul2660

Active member
Hey Paul,

Once you went through the extra trouble were you happy with the results of the 28mm? Do you still use it?

Thanks!
Warren
Hi,

Sadly, I sold the 28mm to purchase a 32mm Rodenstock. Looking back, I should have kept the 28mm and sold some other gear to purchase the 32mm.

I only used the 28mm with the CF, and loved the lens, as it had (at least my copy) very small amounts of retro focus distortion, unlike my 32mm. Retro focus distortion is seen towards the edge of most wides, where objects become flattened and elongated. Very easy to see for example on a car (tires are oval not round) or other objects that have a known dimension. The 28mm had much less of this. The CF on the 28mm makes the LCC have to do so much less work (not clean up vignetting and mainly work on color cast). My only issue with the 28mm was the fact the CF cost about 1.5 to 2 stops of exposure and on a tech camera with a copal shutter, it was troublesome.

Others have posted they they don't see color cast with the Rodenstock, I disagree, as the Rodenstock 28mm, 23mm both show some color cast on center (from my use) and considerable color cast when shifted. I agree that the Schneders show more of it. Capture One always seems to get most of the color cast removed, unless I was shifting over a solid blue sky, where I usually had some red tint towards the edges even with the LCC applied. You will get more shift that with a larger sensor like in the IQ3100.

Here is a link to a very detailed series of testings a member "Voidshatter" did with the 23mm 40mm on the 3100, he also did a similar set of tests with the IQ250, but sadly the link no longer has the pictures available. I believe one of the pictures shows the effect of the Image Circle indicator edge, in the Rodenstock lens. You can clearly see the lighter band of light followed by the black of the IC indicator.


Paul C
 

diggles

Member
I only used the 28mm with the CF, and loved the lens…
Paul, your comments heavily influenced my decision to get a pre-owned copy of the HR 28mm :) I picked up the CF from Linhof.

This morning I took it out to do some testing. The pictures are boring, but the scene is close to my office and I think the images are a good representation of the 28mm on a CFV II 50c back. FYI–I'm in Colorado where there have been a lot of forest fires lately so the haze in the sky is likely affecting the image contrast.

Here is the link to the RAW 3FR images:

The first series of images were taken at f11. The filenames are descriptive–e.g. the filename HBLD_0407-CF-10mm-Fall.3FR was taken with the CF filter and 10mm camera fall. There is also a matching set of LCC captures.

The second series of pictures were taken without the CF filter for comparison. The aperture was f11 for these as well. The final three images compare the same scene shot at f11, f8, and f5.6. I didn't take LCC captures for these.

Hopefully this helps!
Warren
 

diggles

Member
Since the images in my previous post only show unprocessed files, I thought it could be helpful to upload another example. This series of three jpeg images includes uncropped copies of the original capture, the lcc capture, and the file exported from Phocus after applying the Scene Calibration capture and other processing–before anything was done in photoshop.

These images were taken with the CFC II 50c back and the HR 28mm lens on a Cambo Actus and about 10mm camera fall.

The original capture:
B0000863.jpg

The lcc capture:
B0000868.jpg

The file exported from Phocus:
_HBLD-00863.jpg

As you can see in the original capture the lcc correction significant. Originally I tried to do the Flat Field Correction in Lightroom, but for some reason it didn't work so I ended out using the scene calibration in Phocus which worked rather well. There was a bit of noise left in the sky after scene calibration was applied, but it was fairly easy to fix in photoshop.

It is a bit of a pain working with this lens if you need significant shifting, but it is very sharp and the rendering is very nice in my opinion. I also like the 28mm focal length for a wide, it's just right.
 

rdeloe

Active member
As you can see in the original capture the lcc correction significant. Originally I tried to do the Flat Field Correction in Lightroom, but for some reason it didn't work so I ended out using the scene calibration in Phocus which worked rather well. There was a bit of noise left in the sky after scene calibration was applied, but it was fairly easy to fix in photoshop.
Looking good. I'm not sure why you couldn't process the files in Lightroom. I downloaded these two JPEG images and applied Flat Field Correction in Lightroom without difficulty. Your version based on the RAW files looks better! ;)
 

nameBrandon

Active member
Thanks for sharing these tests, good stuff!

I did end up selling my SK 35XL and replaced it with a 40HR and had been potentially eyeing something wider, good to see your results here.
 

diggles

Member
Thanks for trying that out Rob! I have a series of three bracketed exposure with the LCC file as the last file. When I select all three I get a message that it is Flat-Field Correcting 4 photos but only one of them is converted to a DNG file and visually it doesn't look like any correction has been applied.

Here is a screenshot of the settings:
Screen Shot 2020-10-14 at 9.55.33 AM.png

Just in case Lightroom saves some sort of cache that remembers a past process, I deleted all the files and re-uploaded them from the camera card. I also created a set of .3fr and .fff files to see if that could be making a difference. Both ways didn't work.

The next thing I tried was to export the .fff to .tiff files (within Lightroom) and then ran the correction and it worked. For some reason it is having difficulties with the Hasselblad filetypes. Maybe?

Curious if you would be able to get the flat field correction to work with the raw files.

Going to see if it works when exporting DNG files…results soon
 
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diggles

Member
Just tried using DNG files exported from Phocus and those didn't work…

It's difficult to tell for sure, but it looks like the flat field correction might be using the first image of the building to correct the other building images. Is the LCC image too dark? so Lightroom isn't sure which one to pick?

Too bad there isn't a manual option for choosing LCC images in Lightroom.
 
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diggles

Member
Thanks for sharing these tests, good stuff!

I did end up selling my SK 35XL and replaced it with a 40HR and had been potentially eyeing something wider, good to see your results here.
You're welcome. It's so difficult to know if a lens is going to be a good fit without seeing tests. The jury is still out for me on this lens. I like the focal length and it's sharp, but dealing with the color shifts and light falloff when using camera movements is definitely less than ideal. I'm going to stick with it for a while and get some more real world use out of it before making a final decision. I've also got a Canon 24 TS-E II that may end out being my wide option…but I really like the 28mm focal length. Ugh!
 
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