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Fake or Art?

OK, I'll bite. Here's a fake. The forest is 100% real, with normal LR editing. It's a nice, if somewhat boring, image from my back yard. The buck is 100% fake - but I find it adds enough interest to transform the shot. I don't claim it's art - let's not go there today - but I sure do wish that buck were real because then I would like the shot a whole lot more. As it is, it's just a fake image.

This is the dilemma we face with today's tech. Are we justified in using tech to improvie our composition and storytelling? For me, I have made peace with trying to create art from what is really there, but not with adding what isn't.

buck.jpg
 
OK, I'll bite. Here's a fake. The forest is 100% real, with normal LR editing. It's a nice, if somewhat boring, image from my back yard. The buck is 100% fake - but I find it adds enough interest to transform the shot. I don't claim it's art - let's not go there today - but I sure do wish that buck were real because then I would like the shot a whole lot more. As it is, it's just a fake image.

This is the dilemma we face with today's tech. Are we justified in using tech to improvie our composition and storytelling? For me, I have made peace with trying to create art from what is really there, but not with adding what isn't.

View attachment 223765

What strikes me about your photo is that it’s already a step away from strict reality. The moment you chose black and white, you left behind a literal record of the backyard and moved toward interpretation. That’s not fake, it’s expressive.

For me, adding the buck isn’t deception; it’s storytelling. Just as black and white invites us to see the forest differently, the buck gives the scene a narrative heartbeat. It’s no longer just trees; it’s a place where something could happen. That imaginative leap doesn’t diminish the photo; it expands it.
 
For me, adding the buck isn’t deception; it’s storytelling.
I understand, and I believe that is actually the future of photography. It will become the norm that photographers use advanced editing to make composite images that are "better" than what the lens saw.

So many photographs are backdrops, incomplete canvases waiting for a story to appear. I struggle with that all the time and it is tempting to just make the story up with imaging tools - as painter do with their brushes. For this old dinosaur, however, it is not the way.
 
This is why in literature there is fiction and nonfiction. When you present fiction as nonfiction, then you have a fake.

Composite photography is as old as photography. Technology might make it less technically demanding, but, as the example above shows, there is more to making a believable composite than simply technology--incongruity in contrast and perspective are easily observable.
 
Technology might make it less technically demanding, but, as the example above shows, there is more to making a believable composite than simply technology--incongruity in contrast and perspective are easily observable.
Interesting thing about this photo is that the insertion (from Phtoshop) is actually very bad. There are serious rendering issues. I find that fakes are still poor, and I am thankful for that. The situation will change, however, and then each of us will have to decide. I think that's the OT here. Sure, we all do compositing and editing in post, but do we edit in a dragon to make that boring old photo more "artistic"? Am I a photographer or an effects tech if if I do?
 
Interesting thing about this photo is that the insertion (from Phtoshop) is actually very bad. There are serious rendering issues. I find that fakes are still poor, and I am thankful for that. The situation will change, however, and then each of us will have to decide. I think that's the OT here. Sure, we all do compositing and editing in post, but do we edit in a dragon to make that boring old photo more "artistic"? Am I a photographer or an effects tech if if I do?

Was Jerry Uelsmann a photographer or a darkroom tech? And does it matter? There are some multiple printing images that Harry Callahan (the photographer, not the cop) did that are very compelling. And what is Gordon Parks? Photographer, musician, poet, novelist, director? Personally, I don't think of myself as a photographer, but someone that makes images. How I chose to get there, does not matter to me. I don't think someone skilled behind the camera any greater or less that someone that masters another technology.
 
I understand, and I believe that is actually the future of photography. It will become the norm that photographers use advanced editing to make composite images that are "better" than what the lens saw.

So many photographs are backdrops, incomplete canvases waiting for a story to appear. I struggle with that all the time and it is tempting to just make the story up with imaging tools - as painter do with their brushes. For this old dinosaur, however, it is not the way.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I like the way you describe photographs as “incomplete canvases waiting for a story.” That resonates with me as well.

For me, choosing black and white already moves the photo a step away from pure record; it becomes an interpretation of the forest rather than the forest itself. Adding the buck doesn’t feel like deception, but like giving the canvas a story. That’s the way my imagination wants to use the medium.

I respect your choice to stay close to “what the lens saw.” For me, I sometimes lean into what the lens suggested rather than what it strictly recorded. Both paths seem to have value.
 
This is why in literature there is fiction and nonfiction. When you present fiction as nonfiction, then you have a fake.

Composite photography is as old as photography. Technology might make it less technically demanding, but, as the example above shows, there is more to making a believable composite than simply technology--incongruity in contrast and perspective are easily observable.

I like your comparison to fiction and nonfiction; it makes sense that if something is presented as fact when it’s actually an invention, it feels misleading. At the same time, I think photography has always lived in that in-between space. Even when we strip to black and white, adjust contrast, or choose one framing over another, we’ve already stepped away from strict nonfiction.

To me, a composite doesn’t have to be “fake” if it’s understood as imaginative work, more like fiction in literature. Fiction isn’t lesser than nonfiction; it just serves a different purpose. I feel the same way about photography.
 
Photography has always lived in tension with the fine arts. Perhaps the question isn’t whether the medium is capable of art, but whether the photographer can see beyond the literal frame. The lens records, but imagination transforms.

For me, a camera that only documents is no different from a Xerox machine. And I know that well, as I got paid for decades to do exactly that. Clients wanted faithful records, and I gave them what they paid for: my eye, my style of lighting, posing, color grading, and polish. But truthfully? That kind of work can become a trap. Useful, yes, but often boring. What keeps me alive in photography today is the freedom to step beyond documentation and into imagination.
 
I manipulate my images toward what my brain saw away from what my camera recorded.
The manipulation encompasses increases or decreases in contrast, exposure and masking to emphasize detail; however I don’t ”enhance” my images by including objects that didn’t exist.
Yes, I’m creating art with reality boundaries!
stanley
 
What keeps me alive in photography today is the freedom to step beyond documentation and into imagination.
Freedom. How much do we want? For example, we can perform Bach on an organ or on a synthesizer. The required skill sets are very different, and both performances have merit because Bach's genius is constant. Both the organist and the .... synthetist??? ... play Bach, but they don't compose him. Sure, we are free to tell AI to compose Bach-like music, but who cares if we do?

Similarly, do we want complete freedom to create visual imagery from nothing? Painters do that, and so can computers. However, brushes and keyboards are different classes of tool and have very different perceived values. Photography is like that, I think. It is defined by both a creative process and a technology. Personally, I am as much interested in the lenses and the cameras and the history as I am in the photographs. To feel involved, I have to have an optical image as a starting point, using traditional tools. Then I am fine with editing, mixing images, etc. A "painterly" image (like much of your work) starts from reality. I enjoy viewing work like that. In contrast, I don't put AI bucks in forests (except for this one) or watch AI clips. I recognize that I am a dinosaur and @stngoldberg may be as well.

I do not see fully rendered images on this board. Is that an indication that most of us want real imagery to start with? Will that change as AI improves?
 
Back to the beginning for me. :)

I just wrote a short post that asks the question:

"If a photograph carries more imagination than fact, does that make it fake, or does it finally make it art?"

I'd enjoy reading your thoughts.

Darr

I'm not really sure how to define "art". And photographic imagination is multifaceted itself, difficult to define precisely.

I see photography, and photographs in specific, as having a dual nature. There's a literal, documentarian component: what did the camera record? And there's an abstractive component: is what was recorded intended to present a realistic rendering of the subject as our eyes might encounter it, or was it intended to do something other than that? This brings in the question of the photographers' intent ... which is where the notion of what it factual and what is artistic arises. Because it takes a human mind to establish the boundary between what is intended as fact or art, and combines the literal with the abstractive to achieve a goal.

Since I haven't seen anything that says an "AI" is aware as yet, in any but the most basic machine sense, I don't believe anything AI can create art as yet since an AI cannot imagine without awareness. A human mind can instruct an AI to do something notional, but it's not the AI that dreams up whatever that might be, it's the human mind.

I also have a little difficulty looking at composited images are being photographs. Composited images can be built up of photographic parts but are not themselves photographs, although they can certainly look like photographs. But, to me anyway, a photograph is a single instant in Time, not multiple instants captured and emplaced together. Any such compositions, whether they look like photographs or not, are art and not photographs. (My apologies, Mr. Uelsmann and others.) They can be very clever photographic simulacra, but they are certainly the result of ars (Latin for "skilled work" or "artifice") from which art descends.

So my first order approximation of an answer to "If a photograph carries more imagination than fact, does that make it fake, or does it finally make it art?" is that the question isn't really well-formed, it's trying to draw a single straight line through four skew points. A photograph is deemed factual when the photographer contrives with the camera to present a documentarian view of a subject for the purposes of recording. That doesn't mean it cannot also, at the same time, be abstractive and thus artistic ... e.g.: I get an assignment to do portraits of a third grade class. I want the portraits to accurately characterize what the kids look like, for sure, but I also want them to be somewhat abstractive and present them with pleasant smiles and an aura of happiness and friendliness, because that's what will make them, their parents, and their friends feel good. Another e.g.: I'm using a camera to record ground truth for a new remote sensor that I'm going to fly to Mars. I want the photographs I make with the camera to be as literal and accurate to the facts of the target as possible so as to evaluate what the sensor does when it records the scene, but that doesn't mean the ground truth can only be dull, technically correct images. It helps if the photos tell an appealing story of the target, because that's what I want the sensor to do when it is flying around Mars which I can't get to myself with a camera... be accurate and factual as well as abstractively interesting. (And believe me that I had this exact situation on assignment when I worked for NASA/JPL way back when the dinosaurs still roamed the Earth...)

With all that foofawraw gotten out of my head, I guess a straightforward answer to that question is that if the abstractive qualities of a photograph overwhelm the factual representation of the photograph's subject, and if that was the intent of the person making the photograph, then the image created slides away from being a photograph into becoming more of an art piece. And if the intent of the photograph was to document something forensically, for whatever purpose, and intentionally doesn't, then that's a fake — regardless whether it is art or not.

At this point, I'll look inwards and muse over my own photography of the past year and some to consider: What has been my intent in making the photographs I've made? And have I achieved any of it? ;)

G
 
Back to the beginning for me. :)



I'm not really sure how to define "art". And photographic imagination is multifaceted itself, difficult to define precisely.

I see photography, and photographs in specific, as having a dual nature. There's a literal, documentarian component: what did the camera record? And there's an abstractive component: is what was recorded intended to present a realistic rendering of the subject as our eyes might encounter it, or was it intended to do something other than that? This brings in the question of the photographers' intent ... which is where the notion of what it factual and what is artistic arises. Because it takes a human mind to establish the boundary between what is intended as fact or art, and combines the literal with the abstractive to achieve a goal.

Since I haven't seen anything that says an "AI" is aware as yet, in any but the most basic machine sense, I don't believe anything AI can create art as yet since an AI cannot imagine without awareness. A human mind can instruct an AI to do something notional, but it's not the AI that dreams up whatever that might be, it's the human mind.

I also have a little difficulty looking at composited images are being photographs. Composited images can be built up of photographic parts but are not themselves photographs, although they can certainly look like photographs. But, to me anyway, a photograph is a single instant in Time, not multiple instants captured and emplaced together. Any such compositions, whether they look like photographs or not, are art and not photographs. (My apologies, Mr. Uelsmann and others.) They can be very clever photographic simulacra, but they are certainly the result of ars (Latin for "skilled work" or "artifice") from which art descends.

So my first order approximation of an answer to "If a photograph carries more imagination than fact, does that make it fake, or does it finally make it art?" is that the question isn't really well-formed, it's trying to draw a single straight line through four skew points. A photograph is deemed factual when the photographer contrives with the camera to present a documentarian view of a subject for the purposes of recording. That doesn't mean it cannot also, at the same time, be abstractive and thus artistic ... e.g.: I get an assignment to do portraits of a third grade class. I want the portraits to accurately characterize what the kids look like, for sure, but I also want them to be somewhat abstractive and present them with pleasant smiles and an aura of happiness and friendliness, because that's what will make them, their parents, and their friends feel good. Another e.g.: I'm using a camera to record ground truth for a new remote sensor that I'm going to fly to Mars. I want the photographs I make with the camera to be as literal and accurate to the facts of the target as possible so as to evaluate what the sensor does when it records the scene, but that doesn't mean the ground truth can only be dull, technically correct images. It helps if the photos tell an appealing story of the target, because that's what I want the sensor to do when it is flying around Mars which I can't get to myself with a camera... be accurate and factual as well as abstractively interesting. (And believe me that I had this exact situation on assignment when I worked for NASA/JPL way back when the dinosaurs still roamed the Earth...)

With all that foofawraw gotten out of my head, I guess a straightforward answer to that question is that if the abstractive qualities of a photograph overwhelm the factual representation of the photograph's subject, and if that was the intent of the person making the photograph, then the image created slides away from being a photograph into becoming more of an art piece. And if the intent of the photograph was to document something forensically, for whatever purpose, and intentionally doesn't, then that's a fake — regardless whether it is art or not.

At this point, I'll look inwards and muse over my own photography of the past year and some to consider: What has been my intent in making the photographs I've made? And have I achieved any of it? ;)

G


Thank you for such a thoughtful response, G. I really enjoyed the way you broke this down through both your NASA/JPL experience and your portrait example. You’re right: photography has always had that duality of fact and abstraction. The idea of intent is central, and I agree with you that when intent is purely forensic, adding imagination could feel misleading.

But for me, imagination doesn’t push a photograph “out of photography” so much as it expands what the medium can do. Even when we work in black and white, adjust contrast, or compose in ways the eye never naturally sees, we’ve already moved beyond literal ground truth. That’s where I feel photography starts to overlap with art, not because it abandons fact, but because it transforms it.

Like you, I also find myself asking about intent: am I documenting, or am I expressing? Sometimes it’s one, sometimes the other, sometimes both. And maybe that tension is what makes photography so endlessly compelling.
 
I manipulate my images toward what my brain saw away from what my camera recorded.
The manipulation encompasses increases or decreases in contrast, exposure and masking to emphasize detail; however I don’t ”enhance” my images by including objects that didn’t exist.
Yes, I’m creating art with reality boundaries!
stanley

Stanley,
I like how you put that, “art with reality boundaries.” That’s a good description of the choices you’ve made, and I respect that line. For me, I don’t mind if the boundary shifts a little further. A black and white conversion, or a heavy crop, already departs from “what was there,” so I see adding an element as another way of guiding the story. It’s not about tricking the viewer, but about shaping an image that expresses something beyond what the lens recorded.
 
Freedom. How much do we want? For example, we can perform Bach on an organ or on a synthesizer. The required skill sets are very different, and both performances have merit because Bach's genius is constant. Both the organist and the .... synthetist??? ... play Bach, but they don't compose him. Sure, we are free to tell AI to compose Bach-like music, but who cares if we do?

Similarly, do we want complete freedom to create visual imagery from nothing? Painters do that, and so can computers. However, brushes and keyboards are different classes of tool and have very different perceived values. Photography is like that, I think. It is defined by both a creative process and a technology. Personally, I am as much interested in the lenses and the cameras and the history as I am in the photographs. To feel involved, I have to have an optical image as a starting point, using traditional tools. Then I am fine with editing, mixing images, etc. A "painterly" image (like much of your work) starts from reality. I enjoy viewing work like that. In contrast, I don't put AI bucks in forests (except for this one) or watch AI clips. I recognize that I am a dinosaur and @stngoldberg may be as well.

I do not see fully rendered images on this board. Is that an indication that most of us want real imagery to start with? Will that change as AI improves?

For me, even my love of a Hasselblad loaded with black and white film has always been a step away from literal truth, a deliberate departure from reality. After thirty years in the image-making business, I think that long career also burned me out on what now feels dull and predictable in visuals. That’s why I find my energy in the space between documentation and imagination. The lens records, but what excites me is how imagination transforms.

And as for feeling like a dinosaur, I actually find that staying creative keeps me feeling young. Every time I try something new, it’s like resetting the clock a little. Maybe that’s what imagination really gives us: not just images, but renewal. :)
 
Dear Darlene

You are touching the keywords

Eric Fromm, a german-american social psychologist, wrote a book, the art of loving, (translated from Danish).

And no, its not about sex, but about the mental condition, being able to love other people and oneself. And another transcription could also be, the art of being harmonic and happy and making others so. (I use to say it takes happy human being to be happy, we other deadly people have to work for it)

Reading the book several years ago my view of the head essence of the book was three important keyword, renunsiation, focusing and creativity (as being the opposite of routine-work, where you are able to forget yourself (when focusing..), so to speak).

(my own most happy and creative photo-period was when I only was using the Ricoh GR, and sometimes manipulating it out over the edges, it could sometimes be very fun and mindblowing – I have all my life have had that vison that if only we all just had one camera with only one lens on – we would all be more happy in our shooting and creativity, and perhaps thereby also in our life)

Kind regards

Thorkil
 
Some very good responses, and a decent question (thank you Darr!). Like to offer a different take here.
Not so sure the axis of documentation <-> abstractive/expressive is adequate, rather thinking there are likely several different axes at play here. From the gut, I have the feeling that its not just about where along the axis (or multiples) one lands, but rather that each point has a particular take, a stance, and that a work needs to be compared and judged to some degree in its response to those stances. For instance Uelsmann is imaginative, but his version of imagination and composite is very different from Man Ray; so too in the realist/documentation arena, there are differences in the f64 group, as well as when contrasted with reportage.
Thus, I'd argue that there are sub-genres in photography, and that one has to work within those (or break them thoughtfully) - whether one likes or abides, they are part of the culture of photography. And it is for that reason I find the buck in the photo at the top so uninteresting - it looks like such a blatant insertion, that it (IMHO) devalues the rest of the image. And ends up in no real space at all, just kind of like a quick gesture. Doesn't hold up. In the land of insertions, there are questions to asked and answered - what is the insertion, how does it work with the larger whole, do the varied insertions speak to another, are they in contrast with the time/space of the original (see Man Ray for good work on this), etc.
Best,
Geoff
 
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