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Filtersystem for MF

GMB

Member
Hi. I am in the process of buying a filter system for my S007. In particular, a 6 stop ND as well as 3 stop soft, hard, and reverse GND. I am leaning towards the Haida M15 system. Does anyone have experience with that system? How useful do you think pol filters are for landscape (I have used them in the past with mixed results)? What's the view on clear night filters?

I want to use this on an upcoming trip to Iceland.

Thanks and happy Easter.

Georg
 

vieri

Well-known member
Hi. I am in the process of buying a filter system for my S007. In particular, a 6 stop ND as well as 3 stop soft, hard, and reverse GND. I am leaning towards the Haida M15 system. Does anyone have experience with that system? How useful do you think pol filters are for landscape (I have used them in the past with mixed results)? What's the view on clear night filters?

I want to use this on an upcoming trip to Iceland.

Thanks and happy Easter.

Georg
Hello Georg,

firt a disclaimer - I am a Formatt-Hitech Ambassador, but being an ambassador for a brand never stopped me from telling it as I see it.

Starting with your last question, I wouldn't use a clear night filter in Iceland; those are more useful to balance the hues of city lights, while in Iceland the night sky is very clean to begin with.

Polariser: definitely yes, not to saturate the blue sky (possibly the worse use for a polariser, not to mention that it creates very funky effects if you use it with wide-angle lenses), but to control reflections & shine on rocks; since Iceland if made of black rocks, you'll definitely put a polariser to a good use there.

About the system. Nowadays, many filters are neutral enough. What sets them apart are other features; I personally favour Formatt-Hitech Firecrest Ultra filters because not only they are the most neutral (or among the most neutral, according to who you read - see here for my compared review, if interested: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2016/07/best-filters-landscape-photography-review.html) on the market, but they are the only ones on the market built by sandwiching the dark coating layer in between two thin panes of glass; this makes it impossible to scratch the coating, even if you manage to scratch the glass. With any other glass filters on the market the dark coating is on the filter's surface, making it very easy to scratch - and those scratches will eventually create problems in your images, such as flare, loss of sharpness, and so on.

The holder - last but not least, the holder. It is interesting how most brands keep releasing new versions of their holders, and how their best each other with every new effort. One would think that it shouldn't be that hard to create the perfect one (and many photographers, me included, just think "if they only asked me!" :) ), but it seems that it's not as easy. At the moment, I think that the new Firecrest holder Mark II which has just been released is the best one yet - in my opinion at least - vastly improving on the original Firecrest holder, which was good when it came out but not as good as other newer options, lately.

Hope this helps! Best regards,

Vieri
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
To piggyback on Vieri's comments....

I don't think you'll need a clear night filter in Iceland either. As Vieri mentions, those are mainly to deal with light pollution (esp the orange glow of sodium-vapor street lights), of which there's not a whole lot of in Iceland (esp. the further away from Reykavik).

I also still find CPLs useful, mainly for eliminating reflections, but also they can help reduce light transmission, which can be helpful for slowing shutter speeds in certain situations if an ND filter isn't around.

I also handle GND filters in post now instead of in-camera. I find that the dynamic range of modern CMOS sensors is so good that I don't remember the last time I used a GND filter. Of course, YMMV, but I don't think they're worth the $$, the hassle or space in the bag these days (esp in a place like Iceland where conditions change quickly and things get wet easily).

I don't have any experience with Haida but have seem some great results with the system!
 

vieri

Well-known member
To piggyback on Vieri's comments....

I don't think you'll need a clear night filter in Iceland either. As Vieri mentions, those are mainly to deal with light pollution (esp the orange glow of sodium-vapor street lights), of which there's not a whole lot of in Iceland (esp. the further away from Reykavik).

I also still find CPLs useful, mainly for eliminating reflections, but also they can help reduce light transmission, which can be helpful for slowing shutter speeds in certain situations if an ND filter isn't around.

I also handle GND filters in post now instead of in-camera. I find that the dynamic range of modern CMOS sensors is so good that I don't remember the last time I used a GND filter. Of course, YMMV, but I don't think they're worth the $$, the hassle or space in the bag these days (esp in a place like Iceland where conditions change quickly and things get wet easily).

I don't have any experience with Haida but have seem some great results with the system!
Just a note about Grad ND - Georg, the OP, is talking about a Leica S (Typ 007), and in my experience with that camera Grad ND filters are still very much a necessity. Generally speaking, I still use them a lot, even with the (now larger) DR of CMOS I prefer to get as much data as I can at the time of shooting rather than pushing shadows in post-processing. However, I forgot to mention before that I don't use (and don't recommend buying) Hard Grad ND filters, since they are of very limited use: in my opinion, the transition is too harsh, and for any situation other than shooting a clean horizon on the sea they'll definitely leave a darker area on areas of the frame where you don't want it. Just my .02 of course :)

Best regards,

Vieri
 

SrMphoto

Active member
Hi. I am in the process of buying a filter system for my S007. In particular, a 6 stop ND as well as 3 stop soft, hard, and reverse GND. I am leaning towards the Haida M15 system. Does anyone have experience with that system? How useful do you think pol filters are for landscape (I have used them in the past with mixed results)? What's the view on clear night filters?

I want to use this on an upcoming trip to Iceland.

Thanks and happy Easter.

Georg
Tim Parkin compared various manufacturers (e.g., Kase, Benro, Haida, Breakthrough, Nisi, Firecrest). You need a subscription (IMO, it's worth it):

Filter Systems for Neutral Density, Graduated and Polarising Filters

H&Y filters received the top ranking. Does anyone have experience with that brand?
 

dchew

Well-known member
Tim Parkin compared various manufacturers (e.g., Kase, Benro, Haida, Breakthrough, Nisi, Firecrest). You need a subscription (IMO, it's worth it):

Filter Systems for Neutral Density, Graduated and Polarising Filters

H&Y filters received the top ranking. Does anyone have experience with that brand?
I do, and my choice was significantly influenced by Tim's work that you reference. I agree he did a very good job comparing them. Well worth a subscription just for that, in my opinion.

There is some info in a thread I started here:

Much of that thread is in the context of using filters with a technical camera. One of the things that make H&Y nice is how it is used in the field, and how I could adapt its use to LCC creation and dark frames. That has become less important now with the BSI sensors, but still relevant. There are a few advantages and disadvantages of H&Y:
Advantages:
  1. Wonderful to use in the field. I really like the magnetic attachment. There was some concern about knocking them off, but hasn't come close to happening in two years of use.
  2. Very compatible with gloves. The CPL rotating gear is pronounced and easy to use.
  3. As I mention in the link, LCC's and dark frames can be done with the filter holder in place.
  4. According to Tim's testing, they handle wide angle lenses quite well with minimal or no vignetting. I don't shoot that wide so I have no experience to say one way or the other.
  5. Again according to Tim's work, the coatings handle mist very well.

Disadvantages:
  1. You can't just buy a holder; they all come with a CPL or ND. Maybe that has changed over the last two years? Correction; you can now purchase the holder only.
  2. Expensive
  3. In my opinion, this system does not work as well if you want to use 100x100 square ND filters from another manufacturer. It really shines with H&Y's ND's, CPL's. 100x150 GND's are wonderful to use from any manufacturer that will fit into the H&Y magnetic frame.
Dave
 
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MartinN

Active member
I use Haida glass filters and have complemented with a Nisi Landscape holder and round circular polarizer (100mm filters). Both brands are very good in my opinion, and just resin filters are more problematic, but can be used in a pinch. Resin filters don’t usually break if dropped.
 

Alan

Active member
Hi. I am in the process of buying a filter system for my S007. In particular, a 6 stop ND as well as 3 stop soft, hard, and reverse GND. I am leaning towards the Haida M15 system. Does anyone have experience with that system? How useful do you think pol filters are for landscape (I have used them in the past with mixed results)? What's the view on clear night filters?
I use Haida NanoPro 6 & 10 stop ND and 2 stop GND filters in 4” and 4x6”. They’re great with minimal/no color cast. The soft GND transitions across the whole length, and is very subtle. I’m debating getting either a 3 stop soft, or a 2 stop medium. I haven’t used Haida polarizers (Breakthrough or Benro).

What’s driving you to 150mm filters - a 95mm threaded lens? If that’s the case, check out the Benro Master 100mm holder (NOT the FH100M2). There’s a 95mm adapter ring with a 95mm slim polarizer (rotates separately from the rectangular filters). As far as I’ve found, it’s the only 100mm system with a 95mm mount and independently rotating polarizer. I use this system when I don’t want to pack the 150mm filters. The trade-off is the polarizer is not drop-in, it screws into the adapter ring. B&H currently sells the same 95mm polarizer adapter rings under the Vu brand marked down to $4.50 (from $50), so I have a spare for when I want ND but no polarizer.
 
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dchew

Well-known member
In Tim's testing on Haida, he didn't have anything really negative to say. His biggest gripe was the "stickiness" of the GND filters when adjusting them in the slot. Other than that, they usually fell in the good to average range compared to the others he tested. However, everyone's criteria is different, as is the relative importance of certain criteria.

Seems like a competent system among the best collection of products available.
Dave
 

vieri

Well-known member
Thanks for the helpful comments so far. My choice of Haida was based on this test https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2017/07/nd-filters/ and On the fact that their new holder should work on the 24 mm S lens and takes magnetic filters. It’s a 150 mm system and thus bigger than the 100 mm systems.
Another side note - I would never get a 150mm system, it's way to cumbersome to carry and use, not to mention that filters will catch wind like a sail on windy days, shaking themselves and making your whole setup shake :) When I was using the S (Typ 007), I found a way to use 100mm filters with it, see here: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2016/08/100mm-square-filters-leica-super-elmar-s-24mm.html

Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Another side note - I would never get a 150mm system, it's way to cumbersome to carry and use, not to mention that filters will catch wind like a sail on windy days, shaking themselves and making your whole setup shake :) When I was using the S (Typ 007), I found a way to use 100mm filters with it, see here: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2016/08/100mm-square-filters-leica-super-elmar-s-24mm.html

Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri
+1

I used to use 150mm filters with my previous kit of 95mm filter-threaded lenses (28mm and 35-90mm HCD). They are a PITA. They act like a sail, and the increased surface area compared to smaller systems meant they caught lots of dust/mist/rain etc. trying to keep them free of water droplets in Iceland wasn’t the most enjoyable experience when I did my first Icelandic trek.

There’s also the added cost of 150mm over 100mm...

If you can find a way to get away with smaller filters I’d definitely recommend trying that route.
-Todd
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I guess it's just a matter of what you carry in the way of lenses. If you use:

23mm Rod, best image case needs CF even with BSI sensor. 95mm Filter thread
28mm Rod, best image case needs CF even with BSI sensor. 95mm Filter thread
32mm Rod , best image, especially if shifted needs CF even with BSI sensor 105mm Filter Thread
35mm Blue Ring Schneider. 105mm Filter Thread
40-80 Blue Ring Schneider. 105mm Fliter Thread
75-150 Blue Ring Schnieder. 95mm or 86mm Filter thread, I can't remember off hand
14-24mm Nikon. curved outer element no filters
15mm Pentax curved outer element no filters
19mm Nikon curved outer element no filters
(net any wide 35mm camera lens with an outer element that is curved, as most are, which eliminates use of screw in filters).


All of these give you two options, at least from what I have found.

150mm Filter, in a sliding style holder, Lee, Wine Country, Nisi, etc. or 105mm filters, stacked.(if you are working with water an attempting to slow exposure or looking for a special effects style shot)

The 105mm screw in filters, I have used, however they are IMO a pain to use as you are constantly screwing and un screwing them, they are thin by design to allow stacking, fragile and just get to be problematic in the field, especially if you are needing a CL-PL and at least one ND. If you want a graduated ND, really not easy to do, you can emulate the effect by holding a ND over the lens and then slowly pulling it away. but not that easy at least for me.

With water, a CL-PL is pretty much a given need and if you shoot greens or fall foliage in bright light a CL-PL will make a huge difference as it will take the glare off the leaves and give a much more please look to the image.

What I moved to was the 150mm Wine Country filter system for Phase One, as I am going to be either carrying a 32mm Rodenstock, and will most likely use the CF (even if you don't the filter size is 86mm on the lens). Wine Country I believe was the first system to allow the CL-PL to stay in the system all the time, and allows you to rotate the CL-PL without having to rotate the entire filter system (like Lee). Wine Country takes any of the 150mm x 150mm filter from all the current companies, (I use the Nisi , Breakthrough Tech, Firecrest mainly), the holders snap into place and the entire setup locks into place on the lens. I rarely use a ND grad for the same reasons already pointed out, but often use the CL-PL and ND 6 or ND 10 depending on the scene.

I work in windy conditions a lot and personally have never noticed the 150mm filters in Wine Country being a sail, but I am using a massive XF and 35mm BL or Arca rm3di and 32mm Rodenstock, both of which are quite heavy IMO.

I fully agree the 150mm x 150mm filters are heavy and bulky, but there really is no other choice out there for lenses with such large outer elements.
One 150mm system by Wine Country fits: all my Phase lenses, my 14-24mm, Nikkor, my 15-35mm Pentax, my 32mm Rodenstock (I worry a bit about the weight of system on the front of of the 32mm as they by design are fragile and prone to misalignment due to so much mass in front of a simple copal shutter and the AU mount is odds are where I will eventually go with my 32mm).

What sold me on the Wine Country system was the integrated, geared CL-PL, since I use a CL-PL almost 100% of the time, it just works out easier for me. System is so simple to place on. Screw on the 105mm adapter ring, mount system, and you can leave the 105mm adapter ring on the lens in the bag by making a simple cover for the 105mm adapter plate.

Paul
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I guess it's just a matter of what you carry in the way of lenses. If you use:

23mm Rod, best image case needs CF even with BSI sensor. 95mm Filter thread
28mm Rod, best image case needs CF even with BSI sensor. 95mm Filter thread
32mm Rod , best image, especially if shifted needs CF even with BSI sensor 105mm Filter Thread
35mm Blue Ring Schneider. 105mm Filter Thread
40-80 Blue Ring Schneider. 105mm Fliter Thread
75-150 Blue Ring Schnieder. 95mm or 86mm Filter thread, I can't remember off hand
14-24mm Nikon. curved outer element no filters
15mm Pentax curved outer element no filters
19mm Nikon curved outer element no filters
(net any wide 35mm camera lens with an outer element that is curved, as most are, which eliminates use of screw in filters).


All of these give you two options, at least from what I have found.

150mm Filter, in a sliding style holder, Lee, Wine Country, Nisi, etc. or 105mm filters, stacked.(if you are working with water an attempting to slow exposure or looking for a special effects style shot)

The 105mm screw in filters, I have used, however they are IMO a pain to use as you are constantly screwing and un screwing them, they are thin by design to allow stacking, fragile and just get to be problematic in the field, especially if you are needing a CL-PL and at least one ND. If you want a graduated ND, really not easy to do, you can emulate the effect by holding a ND over the lens and then slowly pulling it away. but not that easy at least for me.

With water, a CL-PL is pretty much a given need and if you shoot greens or fall foliage in bright light a CL-PL will make a huge difference as it will take the glare off the leaves and give a much more please look to the image.

What I moved to was the 150mm Wine Country filter system for Phase One, as I am going to be either carrying a 32mm Rodenstock, and will most likely use the CF (even if you don't the filter size is 86mm on the lens). Wine Country I believe was the first system to allow the CL-PL to stay in the system all the time, and allows you to rotate the CL-PL without having to rotate the entire filter system (like Lee). Wine Country takes any of the 150mm x 150mm filter from all the current companies, (I use the Nisi , Breakthrough Tech, Firecrest mainly), the holders snap into place and the entire setup locks into place on the lens. I rarely use a ND grad for the same reasons already pointed out, but often use the CL-PL and ND 6 or ND 10 depending on the scene.

I work in windy conditions a lot and personally have never noticed the 150mm filters in Wine Country being a sail, but I am using a massive XF and 35mm BL or Arca rm3di and 32mm Rodenstock, both of which are quite heavy IMO.

I fully agree the 150mm x 150mm filters are heavy and bulky, but there really is no other choice out there for lenses with such large outer elements.
One 150mm system by Wine Country fits: all my Phase lenses, my 14-24mm, Nikkor, my 15-35mm Pentax, my 32mm Rodenstock (I worry a bit about the weight of system on the front of of the 32mm as they by design are fragile and prone to misalignment due to so much mass in front of a simple copal shutter and the AU mount is odds are where I will eventually go with my 32mm).

What sold me on the Wine Country system was the integrated, geared CL-PL, since I use a CL-PL almost 100% of the time, it just works out easier for me. System is so simple to place on. Screw on the 105mm adapter ring, mount system, and you can leave the 105mm adapter ring on the lens in the bag by making a simple cover for the 105mm adapter plate.

Paul
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
I use the Haida 150mm kit specifically to cover the size of my Rodenstock 32mm lens. I get good results.
stanley
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I guess it's just a matter of what you carry in the way of lenses. If you use:

23mm Rod, best image case needs CF even with BSI sensor. 95mm Filter thread
28mm Rod, best image case needs CF even with BSI sensor. 95mm Filter thread
32mm Rod , best image, especially if shifted needs CF even with BSI sensor 105mm Filter Thread
35mm Blue Ring Schneider. 105mm Filter Thread
40-80 Blue Ring Schneider. 105mm Fliter Thread
75-150 Blue Ring Schnieder. 95mm or 86mm Filter thread, I can't remember off hand
14-24mm Nikon. curved outer element no filters
15mm Pentax curved outer element no filters
19mm Nikon curved outer element no filters
(net any wide 35mm camera lens with an outer element that is curved, as most are, which eliminates use of screw in filters).


All of these give you two options, at least from what I have found.

150mm Filter, in a sliding style holder, Lee, Wine Country, Nisi, etc. or 105mm filters, stacked.(if you are working with water an attempting to slow exposure or looking for a special effects style shot)

The 105mm screw in filters, I have used, however they are IMO a pain to use as you are constantly screwing and un screwing them, they are thin by design to allow stacking, fragile and just get to be problematic in the field, especially if you are needing a CL-PL and at least one ND. If you want a graduated ND, really not easy to do, you can emulate the effect by holding a ND over the lens and then slowly pulling it away. but not that easy at least for me.

With water, a CL-PL is pretty much a given need and if you shoot greens or fall foliage in bright light a CL-PL will make a huge difference as it will take the glare off the leaves and give a much more please look to the image.

What I moved to was the 150mm Wine Country filter system for Phase One, as I am going to be either carrying a 32mm Rodenstock, and will most likely use the CF (even if you don't the filter size is 86mm on the lens). Wine Country I believe was the first system to allow the CL-PL to stay in the system all the time, and allows you to rotate the CL-PL without having to rotate the entire filter system (like Lee). Wine Country takes any of the 150mm x 150mm filter from all the current companies, (I use the Nisi , Breakthrough Tech, Firecrest mainly), the holders snap into place and the entire setup locks into place on the lens. I rarely use a ND grad for the same reasons already pointed out, but often use the CL-PL and ND 6 or ND 10 depending on the scene.

I work in windy conditions a lot and personally have never noticed the 150mm filters in Wine Country being a sail, but I am using a massive XF and 35mm BL or Arca rm3di and 32mm Rodenstock, both of which are quite heavy IMO.

I fully agree the 150mm x 150mm filters are heavy and bulky, but there really is no other choice out there for lenses with such large outer elements.
One 150mm system by Wine Country fits: all my Phase lenses, my 14-24mm, Nikkor, my 15-35mm Pentax, my 32mm Rodenstock (I worry a bit about the weight of system on the front of of the 32mm as they by design are fragile and prone to misalignment due to so much mass in front of a simple copal shutter and the AU mount is odds are where I will eventually go with my 32mm).

What sold me on the Wine Country system was the integrated, geared CL-PL, since I use a CL-PL almost 100% of the time, it just works out easier for me. System is so simple to place on. Screw on the 105mm adapter ring, mount system, and you can leave the 105mm adapter ring on the lens in the bag by making a simple cover for the 105mm adapter plate.

Paul
 

vieri

Well-known member
Well, the OP asked about the Leica S 007 - of course if you use lenses with a 105mm filter thread, using 100mm filters becomes an impossibility :) Personally, I can use a 100mm filter system with all my XT Rodenstock lenses (23, 32, 50 and 90mm), no vignetting even shifted all the way.

Best regards,

Vieri
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
You are obviously not using the CF on 32mm (which takes you to 105mm) and possibly the 23mm @ 5mm of filter threading with the CF installed ). The 32mm suffers on center without the CF, but the BSI sensor of the IQ4 recovers most of it, however on shift (12mm would be your limit on XT in one direction) the CF becomes even more important. Note also other tech cameras allow much more shift 15mm to 20mm and the 32mm can easily make 15mm of shift. I realize you believe that the XT is designed around the Rodenstock specs of the 32mm, i.e. 12mm of shift. However that's a limitation of the XT and the lens can easily shift past that. You run into light fall off however and again the CF makes a big contribution here. CF filter size is 105mm.

If you are not using a BSI sensor from Phase, i.e. 3100, 350, 250, 150, or CCD Phase, the CF on both the 23mm and 32mm becomes even more important as the vignetting created by not using one is much harder for the LCC to remove without adding noise on these older sensors. Due to the excessive cost of a IQ4 for most photographers they can't take advantage of BSI in a medium format back. Thus the CF becomes even more critical to a clean exposure, less noise etc. Since only the IQ4 offers Dual exposure and Frame Averaging both of which can eliminate some of the issues around the light fall off of both the 23mm, and 32mm not used with a CF.

These is no one solution for this, I am only attempting to point out that if someone is using a Phase XF system with Phase blue ring wides that the 150 x 150mm system is one good option and if you are on a tech camera with Rodenstock wides, that give best performance with the CF (23mm, 28mm or 32mm) that the 150 x 150 setup is one to consider. It's been continuously pointed out that the XT only has 12mm of shift but Rodenstock also only designed the 32mm for 12mm of shift. Please note that they also designed a CF for this lens as it was of their opinion to get the best optimum performance of the 32mm it needed a CF due to light fall off. It was designed before the IQ4 and BSI sensor, however I would strongly say that in most outdoor lighting conditions the CF gives the 32mm a much more even exposure, especially if shifted.

Glad that the 100mm system works for you, as I agree its a much lighter setup. I also have more than one Camera system and have tried to purchase a filter system that works across multiple cameras to save cost. Only system I use that the 150 x 150 is too much would be the Fuji GFX as most of their lenses are 82mm filter diameter or smaller.

Paul
 

vieri

Well-known member
I use the Phase One XT, and I use the IQ4, so I have no need for CF even with full shift - which, being just 12mm, doesn't really make much of a difference if any at all re: the need for a CF versus non-shifting, with all lenses except for the 23mm which obviously can't shift much anyway :)

I understand your point, of course, for your setup there is no way around 150mm filters. My preference for 100mm filters (and my dislike for the larger sizes) is such that I personally would never choose a system that forced me to use 150mm filters, if I can help it :)

Best regards,

Vieri
 

Rand47

Active member
Another Wine Country Camera filter system user. Very nice, well thought out, comprehensive system. Their Blackstone ND filters are the most color neutral I’ve used.

Rand
 
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