Fuji 50S/R on a Technical Camera

[vjbelle]

I would like to share my experiences working with the Fuji 50s (also applies to 50r) on a technical camera. I wanted to increase the pixel count slightly and decided to shift in portrait position. The slightly smaller size of the sensor allows for greater shifts without stressing lens performance.

This applies to any technical camera - I happen to use an Actus. The Actus can shift to 22mm (the shift stop limit) left and right which just happens to equate to a16X9 format. A very slight crop is needed as the vertical doesn’t quite fit perfectly (probably would have needed 24mm shift) but this is very negligible. 4 shots are necessary for this format size and depending on the lens used and the lens type an LCC may be necessary for the two outer shift images. I have found that my 72mm needs LCC’s for the two outer shift images. This is extremely simple with the Fuji vs. a Phase as all that is necessary is to place the diffuser in front of the lens and shoot - no need to manually set shutter speed for the correct exposure as all of that is accomplished automatically. Of course all of this requires C1 which I know all of you have…..

I have tried this with all of my Schneider lenses 72, 100, 120, 150, 180 with outstanding results. I am able to use the short rail on my Actus for all of these lenses so the entire camera system is really small. Even the extreme edges of the most shifted images are very sharp with all lenses.

So what is the real benefit of shifting this way vs. shifting in landscape orientation? Real Estate!! The lens FOV is increased substantially which, for me, is needed if I want a lens wider than 72mm.

Focus and parallelism are both critical. It doesn’t matter how you determine parallelism but it is critical (not done by any type of detent unless trusted). The same with focus. I have found that its best to focus with the outer edges of the maximum shifts and then check again for center sections. It’s also good to have a feel for how a lens reacts to the Fuji peaking. A little practice goes a long way.

Hope this is helpful for any Fuji/Tech users.

Cheers…….

Victor

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I would like to share my experiences working with the Fuji 50s (also applies to 50r) on a technical camera. I wanted to increase the pixel count slightly and decided to shift in portrait position. The slightly smaller size of the sensor allows for greater shifts without stressing lens performance.

This applies to any technical camera - I happen to use an Actus. The Actus can shift to 22mm (the shift stop limit) left and right which just happens to equate to a16X9 format. A very slight crop is needed as the vertical doesn’t quite fit perfectly (probably would have needed 24mm shift) but this is very negligible. 4 shots are necessary for this format size and depending on the lens used and the lens type an LCC may be necessary for the two outer shift images. I have found that my 72mm needs LCC’s for the two outer shift images. This is extremely simple with the Fuji vs. a Phase as all that is necessary is to place the diffuser in front of the lens and shoot - no need to manually set shutter speed for the correct exposure as all of that is accomplished automatically. Of course all of this requires C1 which I know all of you have…..

I have tried this with all of my Schneider lenses 72, 100, 120, 150, 180 with outstanding results. I am able to use the short rail on my Actus for all of these lenses so the entire camera system is really small. Even the extreme edges of the most shifted images are very sharp with all lenses.

So what is the real benefit of shifting this way vs. shifting in landscape orientation? Real Estate!! The lens FOV is increased substantially which, for me, is needed if I want a lens wider than 72mm.

Focus and parallelism are both critical. It doesn’t matter how you determine parallelism but it is critical (not done by any type of detent unless trusted). The same with focus. I have found that its best to focus with the outer edges of the maximum shifts and then check again for center sections. It’s also good to have a feel for how a lens reacts to the Fuji peaking. A little practice goes a long way.

Hope this is helpful for any Fuji/Tech users.

Cheers…….

Victor

Victor, what do you mean by:

"no need to manually set shutter speed for the correct exposure as all of that is accomplished automatically"

Do you mean that you would have the Fuji in TV mode?


Thanks,
Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[vjbelle]

I was referring to the fact that the Phase DB on a tech camera requires a manual exposure adjustment for the LCC image due to the darkening of the LCC disc/plate. The fuji takes care of all of that automatically. Very little time is required.....

Victor

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I was referring to the fact that the Phase DB on a tech camera requires a manual exposure adjustment for the LCC image due to the darkening of the LCC disc/plate. The fuji takes care of all of that automatically. Very little time is required.....

Victor

Hi Victor, thanks for the reply. What I was asking is what precisely you meant by taking care of it automatically. How are you doing this? Are you shooting in a program mode, or ... ?


Thanks,
Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[vjbelle]

I normally operate my 50s in auto shutter mode. All lenses that are attached or used on a tech camera are always in manual mode. So, the LCC exposure is set automatically by the camera and there is no need to fiddle around with adjustments. I have found it to be very quick......

A little off topic.... I have been really concerned about the clearance for the 100s when used on an Actus in landscape orientation but I do believe it is doable while maintaining full rise which is my most used movement. It does require using the second/lower mount point for the lens and then raising the rear standard 10mm to match. This allows for no fall but full rise. Fall can easily be handled by remounting the lens to the upper mount point and then lowering the rear standard 10mm to match. Fall, if needed is then available. Of course none of this is needed if the Tech Camera is an Arca but that's a whole different animal.

Cheers.....

Victor

 

[k-hawinkler]

:worthless:

 

[CAMBOUSA]

Victor,

Glad to hear you are liking the system so far!

 

[alen]

I would like to share my experiences working with the Fuji 50s (also applies to 50r) on a technical camera. I wanted to increase the pixel count slightly and decided to shift in portrait position. The slightly smaller size of the sensor allows for greater shifts without stressing lens performance.

This applies to any technical camera - I happen to use an Actus. The Actus can shift to 22mm (the shift stop limit) left and right which just happens to equate to a16X9 format. A very slight crop is needed as the vertical doesn’t quite fit perfectly (probably would have needed 24mm shift) but this is very negligible. 4 shots are necessary for this format size and depending on the lens used and the lens type an LCC may be necessary for the two outer shift images. I have found that my 72mm needs LCC’s for the two outer shift images. This is extremely simple with the Fuji vs. a Phase as all that is necessary is to place the diffuser in front of the lens and shoot - no need to manually set shutter speed for the correct exposure as all of that is accomplished automatically. Of course all of this requires C1 which I know all of you have…..

I have tried this with all of my Schneider lenses 72, 100, 120, 150, 180 with outstanding results. I am able to use the short rail on my Actus for all of these lenses so the entire camera system is really small. Even the extreme edges of the most shifted images are very sharp with all lenses.

So what is the real benefit of shifting this way vs. shifting in landscape orientation? Real Estate!! The lens FOV is increased substantially which, for me, is needed if I want a lens wider than 72mm.

Focus and parallelism are both critical. It doesn’t matter how you determine parallelism but it is critical (not done by any type of detent unless trusted). The same with focus. I have found that its best to focus with the outer edges of the maximum shifts and then check again for center sections. It’s also good to have a feel for how a lens reacts to the Fuji peaking. A little practice goes a long way.

Hope this is helpful for any Fuji/Tech users.

Cheers…….

Victor

Hi Victor, thanks for your post, it comes in good timing for me!

I'm looking at moving away from my 4x5 film setup and migrate over (back to) a digital set up. However after experiencing a technical camera, it would be so difficult moving back knowing about lens movements - front and rear standard movements overall.

So the GFX 50R is the "digital back" id go for, likely coupled with a Cambo Actus. Where my confusion lies is with the lens and their mm rating (relative to 35mm). Based on some research, the Schneider Digitar lenses seem to be a good mix of quality and value. Are they the ones you're using?

Translating Full frame 35mm <> 4x5 lens was pretty straight forward. Put simply:

150mm (4x5) = 50mm (FF)
90mm (4x5) = 30mm (FF)

You get the picture.

But what would a Schneider Digitar lens, say 120mm what equivalent to in 35mm Full frame? (how would it fit in my simple chart above)
I just need to get my bearings set to work out what to get. Ultimately 3 lenses would do me fine - Wide, Normal, Long.

I do own five 4x5 lenses starting at 75mm up to 240mm. I wasnt planning to use them on the Fuji due to the resolving power, so to speak.

Thanks in advance.

 

[dchew]

Hi Victor, thanks for your post, it comes in good timing for me!

Translating Full frame 35mm <> 4x5 lens was pretty straight forward. Put simply:

150mm (4x5) = 50mm (FF)
90mm (4x5) = 30mm (FF)

You get the picture.

But what would a Schneider Digitar lens, say 120mm what equivalent to in 35mm Full frame? (how would it fit in my simple chart above)
I just need to get my bearings set to work out what to get. Ultimately 3 lenses would do me fine - Wide, Normal, Long.

Alen,
The short answer is the equivalents are about the same when going from 4x5 to the 50r sensor. Your numbers above were approximates that overestimate the equivalent focal length in 35mm by a little. Applying them to the 50r will underestimate the equivalent focal length by a little.

The longer answer is it depends on what you consider "equivalent."

The modern definition of this calculation is to look at the image diagonal and compare the ratio from format to format. 4x5 film had some frame edges that were not exposed, so the real image area was about 94mm x 120mm, which is a diagonal of 152mm. FF (24x36) has a diagonal of 43.267, or a ratio of 152/43.3 ~3.5:1. Technically, going from 4x5 to FF:
150mm = 43mm, not 50mm
90mm = 25.5mm, not 30mm.

The sensor on the 50r is 33x44, which is a 55mm diagonal for a FF ratio of ~1.27:1, and a 4x5 ratio of 2.77:1
150mm (on 4x5) = 54.1mm (on 50r)
90mm (on 4x5) = 32.4mm (on 50r)
120mm (on 4x5) = 43.3mm (on 50r)

The equivalent you are probably more interested in is the 1.27 ratio of 50r to FF:
150mm (on 50r) = 118mm (on FF)
90mm (on 50r) = 71mm (on FF)
120mm (on 50r) = 94mm (on FF)

The problem with this definition based on diagonals is that it assumes a constant format ratio. Going from a ratio of 4x5 to 2x3 isn't all that close, so the ultimate angle of view depends on how you crop the images, if at all, and the perception of that angle of view in different format ratios.

An older definition of the "standard" lens was the focal length that equals the diagonal. That is probably where your original approximation comes from, although the real "standard" lens in FF is 43mm, not 50mm. I think we can blame Leica for that one!

The appropriate "wide angle" view was considered a focal length equal to the short film dimension: 94mm in 4x5, 24mm in FF. Again, that matches your original 90mm approximation pretty closely.

The good news in all this is there is an easy way to remember FF equivalents when using the 50r sensor: If you want to know what a lens on the 50r is equivalent to in FF terms, it is pretty close to 0.8. Just take the focal length, multiply by 4 and then divide by 5. "4/5" should be easy for a long-time 4x5 shooter to remember!

150x4 = 600
600/5 =120

90x4 =360
360/5 = 72

120x4 = 480
480/5 = 96

Dave

 

[vjbelle]

Alen....

Dave:thumbup: has thoroughly covered the format conversions so no need for me to comment. I do use all Schneider lenses (35,60,72,100,120,150,180) all mounted on Cambo copal 0 lens mounts. The 35 will not reach infinity on the Actus. The 60mm will reach infinity but with barely any movements. From 72mm or longer full movements are available. All of my lenses from 72mm on up perform flawlessly on the Actus with short rail. Even my 180 will reach infinity using the short rail but close focus is limited to around 8 feet - which is no big deal to me as that lens is used for reach. You must use a 4 fold bellows when using longer lenses on the short rail so don't buy anything else.

You must, must, must be religious in making sure that the standards are parallel. I always double check before going out on a shoot. It's a simple process using machinists levels and takes only a minute or two. Can easily be done in the field. I barely ever use the front standard movements so once set I am careful not to disturb them. I also use a Lowepro 11 X 18 cm lens case to store the Actus in - fits like a glove.

You will enjoy the Actus.......

Victor

 

[k-hawinkler]

Alen,
The short answer is the equivalents are about the same when going from 4x5 to the 50r sensor. Your numbers above were approximates that overestimate the equivalent focal length in 35mm by a little. Applying them to the 50r will underestimate the equivalent focal length by a little.

The longer answer is it depends on what you consider "equivalent."

The modern definition of this calculation is to look at the image diagonal and compare the ratio from format to format. 4x5 film had some frame edges that were not exposed, so the real image area was about 94mm x 120mm, which is a diagonal of 152mm. FF (24x36) has a diagonal of 43.267, or a ratio of 152/43.3 ~3.5:1. Technically, going from 4x5 to FF:
150mm = 43mm, not 50mm
90mm = 25.5mm, not 30mm.

The sensor on the 50r is 33x44, which is a 55mm diagonal for a FF ratio of ~1.27:1, and a 4x5 ratio of 2.77:1
150mm (on 4x5) = 54.1mm (on 50r)
90mm (on 4x5) = 32.4mm (on 50r)
120mm (on 4x5) = 43.3mm (on 50r)

The equivalent you are probably more interested in is the 1.27 ratio of 50r to FF:
150mm (on 50r) = 118mm (on FF)
90mm (on 50r) = 71mm (on FF)
120mm (on 50r) = 94mm (on FF)

The problem with this definition based on diagonals is that it assumes a constant format ratio. Going from a ratio of 4x5 to 2x3 isn't all that close, so the ultimate angle of view depends on how you crop the images, if at all, and the perception of that angle of view in different format ratios.

An older definition of the "standard" lens was the focal length that equals the diagonal. That is probably where your original approximation comes from, although the real "standard" lens in FF is 43mm, not 50mm. I think we can blame Leica for that one!

The appropriate "wide angle" view was considered a focal length equal to the short film dimension: 94mm in 4x5, 24mm in FF. Again, that matches your original 90mm approximation pretty closely.

The good news in all this is there is an easy way to remember FF equivalents when using the 50r sensor: If you want to know what a lens on the 50r is equivalent to in FF terms, it is pretty close to 0.8. Just take the focal length, multiply by 4 and then divide by 5. "4/5" should be easy for a long-time 4x5 shooter to remember!

150x4 = 600
600/5 =120

90x4 =360
360/5 = 72

120x4 = 480
480/5 = 96

Dave

Thanks. Or multiply by 0.8. :facesmack:

 

[CAMBOUSA]

I do use all Schneider lenses (35,60,72,100,120,150,180) all mounted on Cambo copal 0 lens mounts. The 35 will not reach infinity on the Actus. The 60mm will reach infinity but with barely any movements. From 72mm or longer full movements are available. All of my lenses from 72mm on up perform flawlessly on the Actus with short rail. Even my 180 will reach infinity using the short rail but close focus is limited to around 8 feet - which is no big deal to me as that lens is used for reach. You must use a 4 fold bellows when using longer lenses on the short rail so don't buy anything else.

You will enjoy the Actus.......

Victor

Here is where I can be helpful! Please see the attached cheat sheet which should give you some ideas as to which lenses will work with the GFX50 series. This will be updated sometime in the near future to reflect the GFX100...but for now we are still doing some testing and maths.

 

[DougDolde]

I find it amusing that anyone would even want to do this

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I find it amusing that anyone would even want to do this

Use a technical/view camera???


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[vjbelle]

I find it amusing that anyone would even want to do this

How to win friends and influence people!:ROTFL:

 

[Greg Haag]

I would like to share my experiences working with the Fuji 50s (also applies to 50r) on a technical camera. I wanted to increase the pixel count slightly and decided to shift in portrait position. The slightly smaller size of the sensor allows for greater shifts without stressing lens performance.

This applies to any technical camera - I happen to use an Actus. The Actus can shift to 22mm (the shift stop limit) left and right which just happens to equate to a16X9 format. A very slight crop is needed as the vertical doesn’t quite fit perfectly (probably would have needed 24mm shift) but this is very negligible. 4 shots are necessary for this format size and depending on the lens used and the lens type an LCC may be necessary for the two outer shift images. I have found that my 72mm needs LCC’s for the two outer shift images. This is extremely simple with the Fuji vs. a Phase as all that is necessary is to place the diffuser in front of the lens and shoot - no need to manually set shutter speed for the correct exposure as all of that is accomplished automatically. Of course all of this requires C1 which I know all of you have…..

I have tried this with all of my Schneider lenses 72, 100, 120, 150, 180 with outstanding results. I am able to use the short rail on my Actus for all of these lenses so the entire camera system is really small. Even the extreme edges of the most shifted images are very sharp with all lenses.

So what is the real benefit of shifting this way vs. shifting in landscape orientation? Real Estate!! The lens FOV is increased substantially which, for me, is needed if I want a lens wider than 72mm.

Focus and parallelism are both critical. It doesn’t matter how you determine parallelism but it is critical (not done by any type of detent unless trusted). The same with focus. I have found that its best to focus with the outer edges of the maximum shifts and then check again for center sections. It’s also good to have a feel for how a lens reacts to the Fuji peaking. A little practice goes a long way.

Hope this is helpful for any Fuji/Tech users.

Cheers…….

Victor

Victor,
Thanks for starting this thread, it has been very interesting discussion to follow.
Thanks again,
Greg

 

[darr]

I find it amusing that anyone would even want to do this

I enjoy watching YouTube videos of a guy that builds a log cabin with hand tools. :OT:

 

[alen]

Thanks. Or multiply by 0.8. :facesmack:

So many responses from many of you, thank you!
Thank you too Victor, for being helpful but also allowing me to somewhat hijack your thread BTW, you should share some pics of your setup!

In short, if I use the following multiplier factor of 0.8, then what im looking for in a nutshell is:

Wide:
Large Format 4x5 = 90mm
Full Frame 35mm = 28mm
Fuji GFX 50 series = 35mm

Normal:
LF = 150mm
FF = 50mm
FG = 60mm

Long:
LF = 300mm
FF = 100mm
FG = 120mm

These are not 100% accurate, but should be near enough i think.
Im a bit concerned with the wide angle options, and their range of movement for front tilt.

 

[alen]

Here is where I can be helpful! Please see the attached cheat sheet which should give you some ideas as to which lenses will work with the GFX50 series. This will be updated sometime in the near future to reflect the GFX100...but for now we are still doing some testing and maths.

View attachment 140753View attachment 140752

This is great, thanks for sharing!

 

[vjbelle]

Thought I would show how I make sure that the standards are parallel on my Actus (there are other methods). It would be a major improvement for the Actus if there was a locking system built into the front standard (not detents). Maybe someday.......

The image below shows the GFX adapter and one of my Digitar lenses attached to the camera. The Starrett Machinists levels I use are extremely accurate and ultra sensitive. To level in the field is very easy and quick. Ideally once the camera is brought to a parallel position it will not stray unless disturbed by accident. Two levels are not necessary....... You must have a tripod head that can allow the camera to adjust to a vertical position. The levels are positioned in the 'Tilt' orientation. They would have to be turned 90 degrees to check for 'Swing'.

Hope this helps.....

Victor