Fuji GF 30T/S, Digaron-W32mmHR, Digaron-S35mmHR, ZeissDistagonPC35mm comparision

[Paul Spinnler]

Got an Alpa 35 XL today, putting it through its paces; its very good on BSI. Centered extremely sharp, will see how much rise it allows. Even 10mm only would be not too shabby for a fully rectilinear lens. There's something about opening files with perfectly straight lines and lack of "retrofocus elongation distortion" of items at the edges.

I think it has an overly bad rep given a lot of the negative commentary around it coincided with CC drama in late-gen high MPX CCD land back in the late 2000s ... let's see how much rise this one gives on 54x40. I could see in brief testing that edges go to mush when rising a lot (it ain't a 43 XL which is just perfect on the big chip), but on crop it will give nice headroom, methinks and 35mm on big chip is still quite wide.

For interiors probably very nice as you won't need a lot of rise and at the current market price ex CF of 2k in a good mount a good deal.

Problem is that for exteriors were rise is key its important to finding the corresponding IIf CF which is very rare.

With CF a no-brainer CFV100c IMHO ...

Wouldn't be surprised if now also 35 XL prices rise over time now, alongside the Magic Four, of course which can now be used as well by alls CFV100c back owners.

 

[guphotography]

My understanding is the 24XL doesn't have a large enough image circle for the 50x44 sensor.
On the cropped sensor perhaps?

I read it once that it has image circle of 60mm? Similar to Canon 24mm TSE, if I recall correctly.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

On IC: The 35 XL with CF is definitely a lot more than the sometimes falsely purported 75mm ... a notion coming from older pre BSI posts ... there's actually little post-BSI IQ4 level documentation around some more rarely used SK glass' (24 / 35 XL) useable IC ... now who runs a 24mm XL through the IQ4 / new Hassy to see crop mode performance on the CFV100c ... 43 XL of course reigns supreme, but I think for the CFV100c it makes sense to re-test 24 and 35 XL ... with OG CFs, of course.

I also see a lot of 24 XLs with CFs on eBay or 24 XL CFs ...

This is from Flickr on a P25 – which has a sensor a bit larger than the CFV100c ... some odd discolorations here (looks like no LCC / CF), but it would really by an interesting combo for crop. 24 XL for the UW stuff and 35 XL as general purpose, short of 43 / 60 which are not available, really. It looks like here without CF, which is why there's vignetting; but I suppose with CF and a modern BSI back you should be able to remove most discolorations if you just shoot front and center? To be verified!

On full format AND CFV100c 43 / 60 reign supreme, as is known, but for crop specifically 35 and 24 might be the bonus lens discoveries of this year.

Distortion free is amazing. Long live SK! Its not only distortion (which can be corrected in C1 well) ... its the avoidance of odd elongation of far edge or near objects which can get really ugly on Rodie Glass due to design and additional lens corrections... As a conclusion, if available, I'd always prefer SK for architecture and proportion re-creation than any Rodie lens ...

Just look at these lines .... symmetric designs are just flawless conveyors of reality onto a plane ... the swim rings at the bottom edge look quite well proportioned ... no weird elongations towards the corners.

So curious if one can validate if the 24 XL (with CF and LCC) is useable or not on the CFV100c ... fingers crossed!

 

[Alkibiades]

Thanks, @Alkibiades. I have used the 40HR for many years but I have no experience with the 32HR or the GFX 30. Reading your summary helps me to understand how they all compare. RIght now, I just have the 40, 70 and 138HR for use with the IQ back and I do not feel a need for wider given the work I do. However, that GFX 30 is tempting, just because the platform is so convenient to use.

You have a nice lens collection and when you have no need for wider lenses so thats fine. Your lenses in combination with a technical camera allow you much bigger movements and what is very important for stiching: movements in two directions at the same time, vertical and horizontal. This is not possible with T/S lenses like the Fuji 30T/S.
the advantage of the Fuji system is the mobility and speed, similar to 35mmFF.

 

[Alkibiades]

I read it once that it has image circle of 60mm? Similar to Canon 24mm TSE, if I recall correctly.

yes, 60 mm.
this could be fine for the BSI 100C 33x44 mm chip but hard to work with, CF needed, but not a dream lens...

 

[Alkibiades]

Thank you for the great post. It is nice to see more comparisons. Do you have images showing the 35HR distortion? Asking for friend

I have something, here with 10 mm shift:

 

[Alkibiades]

First uncorrected, second corrected, details fron uncorrected file.
The distortion is fine even at 10 mm rise, but you see already stronger distortion at the top.
C! correct it easy.
More important I think is the perfect sharpness at the top corners. no chromatic abberations.

 

[diggles]

movements in two directions at the same time, vertical and horizontal. This is not possible with T/S lenses like the Fuji 30T/S.

Have you tried shifting at an angle with the GF30TS? Even though you are not shifting X and then shifting Y, you are effectively doing the same thing by shifting at an angle. You are able to shift at any angle and the camera transmits the info via metadata. It works very nicely.

 

[Alkibiades]

at 15 mm rise the distortion at the top increases stronger as at all Digaron-sl enses when shiften to the end, but the details are very sharp even at the top corners.
But the correction is still not big deal.
when you compare the 35hr to 35xl apo digitar so this lens is sharp till the end of the image circle, schneider start alreda at about 8 mm movement to become blurry, even stopping down the aperture to 16 dont really help. Schneider as a symmetrical lens has no visible distortion but the soft edges will stay a proble at bigger movements.
I really prefer 28xl over 35xl, this lens is in other class,. It is symmetrical, no visible distortion and can use the whole 90 mm image circle with very high quality and sharpness.
Schneider next wide lens would be Super digitar XL 35 mm, that would transfer the better lensdesign of the 28 xl Super digitar to the 35 mm range. But the following backs with microlenses distroyed Schneider digital lenses development.

 

[Alkibiades]

Have you tried shifting at an angle with the GF30TS? Even though you are not shifting X and then shifting Y, you are effectively doing the same thing by shifting at an angle. You are able to shift at any angle and the camera transmits the info via metadata. It works very nicely.

View attachment 210311

Yes, I trayed at 45 degree, but you have much less movement in this case.

 

[Alkibiades]

here an example for such stich, made with 32hr, rise about 10 mm and stich easy made with sliding back, 17 mm each direction.

 

[diggles]

True, you are not able to get 15mm X + 15mm Y, but you are still able to shift 15mm in any direction in 1° increments. The shift amount becomes the hypotenuse of a right triangle.

So let's say you rotate the lens to 45° and shift the full 15mm, this means you are shifting 10mm X + 10mm Y. Or let's say you rotate the lens 67°, this means you are shifting the lens 5.88mm X + 13.8mm Y. It's very useful.

Thankfully, you don't have to think about any of that when composing. You simply look through the viewfinder as you rotate the lens and adjust the shift amount. It's a very fluid way to compose your scene and you have very precise control.

Angle and Shift amount are the two numbers that C1 uses to determine the position of the lens when applying distortion corrections.

 

[Alkibiades]

The new Hasselbald 100c could be the right tool for nice stiching with symmetrical lenses.

 

[Alkibiades]

True, you are not able to get 15mm X + 15mm Y, but you are still able to shift 15mm in any direction in 1° increments. The shift amount becomes the hypotenuse of a right triangle.

So let's say you rotate the lens to 45° and shift the full 15mm, this means you are shifting 10mm X + 10mm Y. Or let's say you rotate the lens 67°, this means you are shifting the lens 5.88mm X + 13.8mm Y. It's very useful.

Thankfully, you don't have to think about any of that when composing. You simply look through the viewfinder as you rotate the lens and adjust the shift amount. It's a very fluid way to compose your scene and you have very precise control.

Angle and Shift amount are the two numbers that C1 uses to determine the position of the lens when applying distortion corrections.

I trayed same stich with the 30TS but the files were too diferent so C1 failed by composing the panorama stich.
It would be possible to make it in photoshop but it is a pain. By using the C1 panorama tool it is so easy done in few seconds.

 

[Alkibiades]

But maybe I have to try again, i used the 30 TS for the first time, need some training...

 

[diggles]

Personally, I wouldn't use the GF30TS to shift multiple images together in this way either. The process I was describing is for a single image.

As a general rule, I don't like stitching with wide lenses because it starts to look unnaturally wide to me.

 

[diggles]

Using the lens collar is definitely important for stitching. I prefer not to use it for single images though.

 

[Adammork]

movements in two directions at the same time, vertical and horizontal. This is not possible with T/S lenses like the Fuji 30T/S.

I don’t know where this myth is coming from, but as stated many times the last month when talking about the Fuji 30 t/s movements - vertically and horizontally movements is possible to do simultaneously!

This have been possible on all the t/s lenses I have used the last 20 years from Nikon, Canon and now Fuji.

It is maybe a bit more intuitive with separated direct x and y shift as on a tech cam, but you will very fast get used to the way of doing it on a modern t/s lens.

In practical terms, when you want to nail an exact line in the corner, where x and y movements are needed, with a bit of practice, you can do that in one fluid motion with a t/s lens, instead of two or more movements with the tech cam.

That said, the most joyful camera I have used for shift, is the Alpa XY, where when using both hands at the same time, can shift with the wonderful geared movements x and y simultaneously with unparalleled precision - but it’s a bit of beast to lug around on location. .

 

[Alkibiades]

I don’t know where this myth is coming from, but as stated many times the last month when talking about the Fuji 30 t/s movements - vertically and horizontally movements is possible to do simultaneously!

This have been possible on all the t/s lenses I have used the last 20 years from Nikon, Canon and now Fuji.

It is maybe a bit more intuitive with separated direct x and y shift as on a tech cam, but you will very fast get used to the way of doing it on a modern t/s lens.

In practical terms, when you want to nail an exact line in the corner, where x and y movements are needed, with a bit of practice, you can do that in one fluid motion with a t/s lens, instead of two or more movements with the tech cam.

That said, the most joyful camera I have used for shift, is the Alpa XY, where when using both hands at the same time, can shift with the wonderful geared movements x and y simultaneously with unparalleled precision - but it’s a bit of beast to lug around on location. .

you simply misunderstand me. There is no point in one image but in stich with 2or 3 pics that needs both movements that must be done.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

at 15 mm rise the distortion at the top increases stronger as at all Digaron-sl enses when shiften to the end, but the details are very sharp even at the top corners.
But the correction is still not big deal.
when you compare the 35hr to 35xl apo digitar so this lens is sharp till the end of the image circle, schneider start alreda at about 8 mm movement to become blurry, even stopping down the aperture to 16 dont really help. Schneider as a symmetrical lens has no visible distortion but the soft edges will stay a proble at bigger movements.
I really prefer 28xl over 35xl, this lens is in other class,. It is symmetrical, no visible distortion and can use the whole 90 mm image circle with very high quality and sharpness.
Schneider next wide lens would be Super digitar XL 35 mm, that would transfer the better lensdesign of the 28 xl Super digitar to the 35 mm range. But the following backs with microlenses distroyed Schneider digital lenses development.

I have the 35 XL since yesterday. I was also always a bit skeptical. But the key word above is “to the end of the image circle”. The XL just centered alone on the big BSI chip, at least the copy I got, is perfectly sharp edge to edge. The image circle is a lot larger than the one of the 35 Digaron S. I will veryfy today what the effective useable IC is, but the fact alone that I get perfect sharpness on the IQ centered implies that it will yield shift reserves on the CFV100 c.

Even if you only get sharpness perfectly up to 8mm rise, this is a very useful lens then on the CFV100c if you can remove colour cast fully with a CF … with more shift headroom than the Digaron S which really has almost no shift on the IQ4, plus retro focus elongation distortion for close objects near to the edges.