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Fun with X1D

jduncan

Active member
The X1D focusses wide open. As I said in message #220 above: in the Sony mirrorless cameras, focus is done with the aperture closed down, so there is never any focus shift. This would be a possible solution for a firmware upgrade.

As long as it's an option and not the default behavior it will be fine.
Focus shift is not an issue for autofocus (the autofocus system can compensate) and most people don't use the manual focus that often.
Closing down before autofocus will impair the autofocus system that it not exactly the faster of them all.
Cutting the light available to the autofocus system, many times (F8 will be more than six times for the 90mm) to accommodate people that manual focus a lot, and testers, don't seem to be the more productive path.
The autofocus system, on the other hand, could handle it.
But, as I say before, an option it will be great Idea.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
As long as it's an option and not the default behavior it will be fine.
Focus shift is not an issue for autofocus (the autofocus system can compensate) and most people don't use the manual focus that often.
Closing down before autofocus will impair the autofocus system that it not exactly the faster of them all.
Cutting the light available to the autofocus system, many times (F8 will be more than six times for the 90mm) to accommodate people that manual focus a lot, and testers, don't seem to be the more productive path.
The autofocus system, on the other hand, could handle it.
But, as I say before, an option it will be great Idea.
I confess that I really don't understand the "science" behind this issue of focus shift. Why it's not an issue with AF but it is with manual focus escapes me. It would be nice to know that Hasselblad is aware of the issue and either doesn't think it is really an issue or will have a fix.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Back to the regular programming: X1D during the recent blizzard with the 90mm lens. Two files merged in Helicon Focus to extend the depth of field. Virtually right out of the camera processing of the raw files in Phocus.

2017-02-13-11-01-06-(B,Radius8,Smoothing4).jpg.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Beautiful New England winter time scene. (from an alumnus of the Blizzard of 78')

Dave (D&A)
 
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ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

A good description is given here: http://toothwalker.org/optics/spherical.html

Most lenses have some residual spherical aberration and that causes a different focus rays that pass trough the centre of the lens and peripheral rays.

When you close the aperture periferal rays are cut off, so there will be a small change of focus.

So, best focus varies with aperture. So, focusing at full aperture may not yield optimal focus when stopped down.

Hasselblad has for a long time used a combination of optical and software correction, where optical correction of some aberrations is relaxed and correcton is made in postprocessing. It is entirely possible that Hasselblad correct for focus shift by focusing at open aperture and do small shift after autofocus to correct for the stopping down. That is smart engineering.

If lens data is know, camera electronics may compensate for the focus shift caused by stopping down.

Jim Kasson made a good study of this on quite a few lenses, like here:
http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/another-medium-tele-test-batis-and-cron-focus-shift/


Best regards
Erik

I confess that I really don't understand the "science" behind this issue of focus shift. Why it's not an issue with AF but it is with manual focus escapes me. It would be nice to know that Hasselblad is aware of the issue and either doesn't think it is really an issue or will have a fix.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Hi,

A good description is given here: Spherical aberration

Most lenses have some residual spherical aberration and that causes a different focus rays that pass trough the centre of the lens and peripheral rays.

When you close the aperture periferal rays are cut off, so there will be a small change of focus.

So, best focus varies with aperture. So, focusing at full aperture may not yield optimal focus when stopped down.

Hasselblad has for a long time used a combination of optical and software correction, where optical correction of some aberrations is relaxed and correcton is made in postprocessing. It is entirely possible that Hasselblad correct for focus shift by focusing at open aperture and do small shift after autofocus to correct for the stopping down. That is smart engineering.

If lens data is know, camera electronics may compensate for the focus shift caused by stopping down.

Jim Kasson made a good study of this on quite a few lenses, like here:
Another medium tele test — Batis and ‘cron focus shift


Best regards
Erik
I agree it would be smart. It would also be smart to let us know if this is actually done in the X1D and if so, whether it applies to AF only or also to MF which, being 'focus by wire,' would certainly be possible and generally be useful.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Hi,

A good description is given here: http://toothwalker.org/optics/spherical.html

Most lenses have some residual spherical aberration and that causes a different focus rays that pass trough the centre of the lens and peripheral rays.

When you close the aperture periferal rays are cut off, so there will be a small change of focus.

So, best focus varies with aperture. So, focusing at full aperture may not yield optimal focus when stopped down.

Hasselblad has for a long time used a combination of optical and software correction, where optical correction of some aberrations is relaxed and correcton is made in postprocessing. It is entirely possible that Hasselblad correct for focus shift by focusing at open aperture and do small shift after autofocus to correct for the stopping down. That is smart engineering.

If lens data is know, camera electronics may compensate for the focus shift caused by stopping down.

Jim Kasson made a good study of this on quite a few lenses, like here:
http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/another-medium-tele-test-batis-and-cron-focus-shift/


Best regards
Erik
Actually, it pretty much shows how insignificant SA in optics today. Just because you can measure something, does not mean it is significant.
 

jduncan

Active member
Exactly.



The X1D does not really need true focus, since its measurement point can be put anywhere in the frame.
Hi,

Need is a relative term. If we are strict it's true that it does not need True focus or autofocus for that matter. If you look videos of many professional vogue and portrait photographers you will look at them using focus recompose[1] instead of moving the focus points all around. If you are working tethered from a tripod moving the focus points is great. If you are moving around (not action) using the central point is, normally, safer (there is no possibility of leaving the focus point in a bad place) faster, and more natural (you star using it like muscle memory). Of course, there is other issues were focus recompose is cumbersome. An example will be product photography from a tripod.
Finally in reality, for most cameras, not all the points are created equal.

In fewer words having true focus, if is not too much of a battery drain, will be great and will improve the autofocus experience.

Best regards,
---
[1] They are using DSLR that have great multipoint systems and great multipoint controls.
 
Regarding focus shift, I emailed and got a reply that are aware of the talk about it and have explored the focus shift issue reported by him and were not able to replicate the issue themselves, but will continue to look into it.

I have portrait shoot on Friday, so I will shoot some with the camera then! And post them of course!
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Interesting discussion of the AF system, but ...

:worthless:

Can some of you lucky folks who have your X1D already please post a few more photos? Particularly with the 30mm lens?

thanks!
G
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Interesting discussion of the AF system, but ...

:worthless:

Can some of you lucky folks who have your X1D already please post a few more photos? Particularly with the 30mm lens?

thanks!
G
I have the 30mm XCD lens and will try to take a few photographs with it this weekend. I did a quick test of a stone wall with it two weeks ago and I can say that it appears excellent. The sharpness appears even across the entire image, so no decentering issues like I have struggled to deal with on my Sony/Zeiss lenses.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

Expose correctly and you will have fine highlights. Overexpose and they will clip. That is true of every modern digital sensor ever made.

Just to say, I have seen a photographer shooting with a scanning back, maybe in 2001. He got fringes in highlights in every shoot that he needed to retouch.

I have compared my Phase One P45+ and my Sony A7rII for highlight reproduction and there is zero difference!

Still, MFD users claim miracles of highlight recovery, how come? Well:

  • Most MFD probably underexpose quite a bit. That means giving up on dynamic range and accepting a bit extra noise.
  • Capture One has a 'film curve' that makes highlights to look washed out.
  • So, you can pull back a lot on highlight detail that has just been disregarded by default handling.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58984278

Physics are the same for any size of sensor and also for different technologies like CCD and CMOS, but MFD thrives on mystery, disregarding the facts. It may be argued that MFD users may make better use of their systems considering the facts. On the other hand, it seems that alternative facts may be en vogue…

Best regards
Erik






How are you finding the dynamic range when increasing exposure? Also, i'b be interested to know how it handles clipping highlights too. The bane of digital photography. Aside from the Hasselblad film cameras such as the SWC, this is probably the best Hasselblad design ever.
 

tjv

Active member
I've been lusting after the X1d since it was announced. It's the closest thing to the legendary Mamiya 7 in the digital world yet to be produced. I'm glad that those who have received one seem to like it. I haven't had a chance to see an X1d in the flesh yet, but got to handle a GFX a few days ago. I will almost certainly be getting one or the other in the coming year, so an actual side by side comparison will be needed. For my uses, I'm more interested in the basic functionality and useability, not to mention portability of the system. In that sense, I don't care about pages of intricate menu options or being able to put it on an Actus, etc. I care mostly about handling, reliability and user experience. IQ will be equal, or in essence basically equal I think... Anyway...

In the meantime, my thoughts on the Fuji are as follows (from the perspective of someone that wants to rationalise the Hasselblad! :ROTFL:)

1: I like the 'joystick' for selecting focus points quickly, and the ability to make the focus point very small. Very quick and intuitive to use. Both of these things worry me a little bit about the X1d. Seems like a big oversight for me.

2: Excellent EVF. It ain't no OVF, but I forgot about it pretty quickly. I could easily live with it, as the refresh and resolution was good. This is another area I'm concerned about with the X1d, as for me the less aware of this technology I am – the less it imposes itself on the user experience – the better.

3: It's not going to win any awards for beauty. Although the ergonomics seem adequate, I felt it was a bit off balance and the my hands, which are medium size. The grip wasn't all that comfortable, to be honest, although I could probably live with it. The body is auite thick.

4: What people have described with the X1d's 'three clicks' for shutter, the first one being the shutter closing down, is present in the GFX. I can see what people mean about that being disconcerting. The GFX doesn't seem to have the third click though.

5: EVF blackout was acceptable, and no worse than say a H camera.

6: The zoom lens was WAY too big, although considering the format I'm not surprised. The 63mm was less than half the size.

7: I like the aperture ring, but for some reason found I used the control wheels instead.

8: I like the X1d's initial lens line up better, although it an ideal world I'd get a 30mm / 60mm two lens set up and just be done with it.

All and all I was impressed. I didn't get the feeling that there was anything under developed, etc. Seemed like a great camera, actually. I only hope that when I get to try the X1d I get the same impression, although the focusing point selection and EVF quality worry me the most.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Very useful and balanced comments. Thanks. I expect the GFX to be a more complete and polished package upon release than the X1D was upon release. I completely share your desire for a digital camera system with the basic goodness of the Mamiya 7. Please see my reactions below.

I've been lusting after the X1d since it was announced. It's the closest thing to the legendary Mamiya 7 in the digital world yet to be produced. I'm glad that those who have received one seem to like it. I haven't had a chance to see an X1d in the flesh yet, but got to handle a GFX a few days ago. I will almost certainly be getting one or the other in the coming year, so an actual side by side comparison will be needed. For my uses, I'm more interested in the basic functionality and useability, not to mention portability of the system. In that sense, I don't care about pages of intricate menu options or being able to put it on an Actus, etc. I care mostly about handling, reliability and user experience. IQ will be equal, or in essence basically equal I think... Anyway...

In the meantime, my thoughts on the Fuji are as follows (from the perspective of someone that wants to rationalise the Hasselblad! :ROTFL:)

1: I like the 'joystick' for selecting focus points quickly, and the ability to make the focus point very small. Very quick and intuitive to use. Both of these things worry me a little bit about the X1d. Seems like a big oversight for me.
Agreed. A joystick would be a more efficient way of selecting focus points. However, depending upon the nature of your work, you may find that the front and rear dials are workable. I do so far after shooting for two weeks with the X1D.
[/COLOR]
2: Excellent EVF. It ain't no OVF, but I forgot about it pretty quickly. I could easily live with it, as the refresh and resolution was good. This is another area I'm concerned about with the X1d, as for me the less aware of this technology I am – the less it imposes itself on the user experience – the better.
I think you need to compare the EVFs side by side to see if there is a meaningful difference. I personally find the EVF for the X1D perfectly adequater. Yes, I wish it were better, as good as an OVF, but it is as good as a Sony A7RII, and I have been able to work well with that EVF.

3: It's not going to win any awards for beauty. Although the ergonomics seem adequate, I felt it was a bit off balance and the my hands, which are medium size. The grip wasn't all that comfortable, to be honest, although I could probably live with it. The body is auite thick.
This is plain to see.
4: What people have described with the X1d's 'three clicks' for shutter, the first one being the shutter closing down, is present in the GFX. I can see what people mean about that being disconcerting. The GFX doesn't seem to have the third click though.
We don't yet know about shutter lag v. EVF lag with the GFX shooting raw files. AFAIK, Fuji has locked out the raw shooting mode for everyone who has demo'd the GFX, so no one knows yet.

5: EVF blackout was acceptable, and no worse than say a H camera.

6: The zoom lens was WAY too big, although considering the format I'm not surprised. The 63mm was less than half the size.

7: I like the aperture ring, but for some reason found I used the control wheels instead.

8: I like the X1d's initial lens line up better, although it an ideal world I'd get a 30mm / 60mm two lens set up and just be done with it.
Hasselblad should be issuing a lens roadmap for 2017 shortly, with 5 new lenses for 2017. Then, we can more effectively compare the lens lineups.

All and all I was impressed. I didn't get the feeling that there was anything under developed, etc. Seemed like a great camera, actually. I only hope that when I get to try the X1d I get the same impression, although the focusing point selection and EVF quality worry me the most.
 
Interesting discussion of the AF system, but ...

:worthless:

Can some of you lucky folks who have your X1D already please post a few more photos? Particularly with the 30mm lens?

thanks!
G
Thanks for the guilt trip Mom!!! :ROTFL: Shot with the 45, mainly just added a little contrast, processed with Phocus, which I'm still trying to learn, I somehow managed to change all the filenames to single digits... :banghead: Getting a tutorial on Thursday! This camera/lens is SO SMALL AND LIGHT, I really can't say that enough. The colors with the camera are beautiful.
 

Attachments

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

Thanks for sharing… some comments.

I was considering controls lately. We have sort of a winter here in Sweden and that makes me consider shooting with gloves.

The way I see it, a camera has three basic controls: focus, shutter speed and aperture. The classic design with shutter dial on top and aperture on lens was quite natural and it is still a good solution.

Regarding shutter sound, the GFX has three shooting modes.

  1. Silent shutter, all electronic no sound. Probably not usable with flash due to slow shutter travel.
  2. EFCS, exposure starts with a sweeping reset with no sound or vibration. Exposure ends with focal plane shutter closing after which shutter is rewound. Two clicks.
  3. Focal Plane shutter. First curtain closes, first curtain sweeps, second curtain sweeps, first curtain opens.

According to info from Hasselblad the X1D uses some combination of electronic shutter and leaf shutter to achieve 1/2000s.
  • Aperture stops down, that may cause a click
  • Sensor resets, that is silent action.
  • Leaf shutter closes (that causes a click)
  • Leaf shutter and aperture opens (that causes a click)
Technically speaking an EVF camera can be used stopped down, but the sensor signal will be cleaner with aperture open.

Best regards
Erik


I've been lusting after the X1d since it was announced. It's the closest thing to the legendary Mamiya 7 in the digital world yet to be produced. I'm glad that those who have received one seem to like it. I haven't had a chance to see an X1d in the flesh yet, but got to handle a GFX a few days ago. I will almost certainly be getting one or the other in the coming year, so an actual side by side comparison will be needed. For my uses, I'm more interested in the basic functionality and useability, not to mention portability of the system. In that sense, I don't care about pages of intricate menu options or being able to put it on an Actus, etc. I care mostly about handling, reliability and user experience. IQ will be equal, or in essence basically equal I think... Anyway...

In the meantime, my thoughts on the Fuji are as follows (from the perspective of someone that wants to rationalise the Hasselblad! :ROTFL:)

1: I like the 'joystick' for selecting focus points quickly, and the ability to make the focus point very small. Very quick and intuitive to use. Both of these things worry me a little bit about the X1d. Seems like a big oversight for me.

2: Excellent EVF. It ain't no OVF, but I forgot about it pretty quickly. I could easily live with it, as the refresh and resolution was good. This is another area I'm concerned about with the X1d, as for me the less aware of this technology I am – the less it imposes itself on the user experience – the better.

3: It's not going to win any awards for beauty. Although the ergonomics seem adequate, I felt it was a bit off balance and the my hands, which are medium size. The grip wasn't all that comfortable, to be honest, although I could probably live with it. The body is auite thick.

4: What people have described with the X1d's 'three clicks' for shutter, the first one being the shutter closing down, is present in the GFX. I can see what people mean about that being disconcerting. The GFX doesn't seem to have the third click though.

5: EVF blackout was acceptable, and no worse than say a H camera.

6: The zoom lens was WAY too big, although considering the format I'm not surprised. The 63mm was less than half the size.

7: I like the aperture ring, but for some reason found I used the control wheels instead.

8: I like the X1d's initial lens line up better, although it an ideal world I'd get a 30mm / 60mm two lens set up and just be done with it.

All and all I was impressed. I didn't get the feeling that there was anything under developed, etc. Seemed like a great camera, actually. I only hope that when I get to try the X1d I get the same impression, although the focusing point selection and EVF quality worry me the most.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks.

I'm looking forward to trying the Hasselblad, as in terms of what I can see and have read online, the ergonomics and user interface – perhaps with the exception of the joystick to select focus points – seems far better with the X1d.

I like that Hasselblad have said they will impliment a choice of more and smaller focus points, I'm guessing this will improve accuracy. If they follow through on their word, then I'd have even more confidence in them moving forward.

If the EVF is indeed as good as the A7Rii then I'll be happy with the X1d EVF.

I'm looking forward to the lens roadmap!


Very useful and balanced comments. Thanks. I expect the GFX to be a more complete and polished package upon release than the X1D was upon release. I completely share your desire for a digital camera system with the basic goodness of the Mamiya 7. Please see my reactions below.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Howard, please don't do that 'my answers are below in red' thing - it's really tough for some of us to read, and I like reading what you write!

Thank you!

Very useful and balanced comments. Thanks. I expect the GFX to be a more complete and polished package upon release than the X1D was upon release. I completely share your desire for a digital camera system with the basic goodness of the Mamiya 7. Please see my reactions below.
 
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