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Future of Hassy- Bleak or Bright?

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
If I were Phase One, I'd be wondering about how to approach the market. There may be institutional buyers who are willing to pay $30k for a new back, but its pretty likely all the individuals are either in Fuji or the Hassy 907 for a lot lot less.
And before one snickers too loudly at the Hassy 907 - recent testing against an IQ 3100 didn't show it giving up much if anything to the Phase One back. And that is surprising, as it has a smaller, older sensor, but their engineers clearly pulled something good out of it. And yes, the IQ4 is better yet, but ....
I'm done with P1 $30K+ backs these days. My IQ4150 pretty much hit my plateau for good enough or more than good enough.

Now I also have GFX100s and full set of lenses which is excellent. However, I also have a 907X and unlike the Fuji, it is a superb platform that I love, not because of its innate abilities but because I just love using it. It's kind of like a Leica M discussion. Technically it makes no sense but from an experience point of view, it matters.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I'm done with P1 $30K+ backs these days. My IQ4150 pretty much hit my plateau for good enough or more than good enough.
Makes two of us..... My 100s/Actus combination solves all technical situations from 72mm and beyond - I can even shoot my 60mm but with limited movements. For wide I can use Fuji lenses and if I need perspective correction I can do that in software.

Victor B.
 
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tcdeveau

Well-known member
I'm still trying to hold out for a 100mp CFVIII....would make a great companion to the IQ4 Achro. The CFVII is great too but I can't justify the upgrade cost from the X1D until I start traveling more, so I figure I may as well just wait it out anyway.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I have no issues or fears about the future of Hasselblad.

My 907x (Moon Landing 50th anniversary edition) came up with a fault (a connection pin on the 907x body went missing when I took the back off to use on my 500CM). I sent the 907x and CFVII-50c back in to Hasselblad USA service, they replaced the missing parts, tested the camera and back, and assigned it as warranty work, shipped it back no charge. Works perfectly now; a slightly-off drilling for that pin was likely the cause of the intermittent issue that I had been having with the camera since new. Total down time: just shy of three weeks—that's record fast for camera service with any marque far as my experience has been.

With good customer service like that, I don't care if it takes them another five years to come up with a CFVIII-100c back. I don't really need more than 50 MPixels anyway ... :D

G
 

diggles

Well-known member
I have no issues or fears about the future of Hasselblad.

My 907x (Moon Landing 50th anniversary edition) came up with a fault (a connection pin on the 907x body went missing when I took the back off to use on my 500CM). I sent the 907x and CFVII-50c back in to Hasselblad USA service, they replaced the missing parts, tested the camera and back, and assigned it as warranty work, shipped it back no charge. Works perfectly now; a slightly-off drilling for that pin was likely the cause of the intermittent issue that I had been having with the camera since new. Total down time: just shy of three weeks—that's record fast for camera service with any marque far as my experience has been.

With good customer service like that, I don't care if it takes them another five years to come up with a CFVIII-100c back. I don't really need more than 50 MPixels anyway ... :D

G
My experience with Hasselblad warranty service was very similar. I contacted them because the paint was coming off of the buttons of the CFV ii 50c. They sent me a shipping label, replaced the buttons, and had the camera back in my hands in about two weeks. No charge.

My desire for the CFViii-100c is not necessarily for the pixels, even though I will welcome them :), it's for the BSI sensor. I'm using Schneider lenses and the BSI sensor 'fixes' the colorcast issues.
 
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Thyl

New member
It appears to me that the S system is a significant commercial failure. Look at Facebook. The group for Hasselblad Worldwide (which recently was derived from the X1D group) has more than 10000 members, while the Leica S group has about 350, iirc. The S3 was delayed significantly, and I wonder why? Did they have an internal dispute regarding its future? Yes, there is one mentioning of a new camera in the S system in one photo that showed up on the web. But that appears to be the only indication. The printed "S" magazine was also cancelled after a small number of issues.

I believe that one reason for this failure are the high prices for the Leica lenses. I once heard that the lenses had been fully corrected, like for film camera lenses. Other manufacturers correct mostly for resolution/MTF, since distortion and colour fringing can be corrected in software. Most of these cameras go to professional photographers, and hence, price is rather important.

On the other hand, the X1d is a huge success, Hasselblad had to restructure their manufacturing in order to fulfil demand, and I believe it literally saved the company.

Overall, I have the feeling that we are about to see the next fallout of medium format manufaturers/systems. Nothing new from Pentax for several years, Phase One appears to loose money, Fuji's main camera system, X, only reached less than 5% market share, and if Fuji decides that this was not worth all the effort, it's cancellation will surely mean the death of the GFX system as well.
 

hotshoe

Member
The S4 will come, it will be the ultimate Leica. Mirrorless and with a 100 MPX or above sensor. The S glass is unmatched. I have all S lenses except the Zoom - edge to edge sharp, wide open, with resolution across the frame above 100 MPX. Most people who talk badly about the system have never had the chance to try it it in full.
A mirrorless S4 would be bliss. 100% agree regarding anybody talking poorly about S system. For anybody who cares about stills IQ (all aspects, not just a single dimension like how sharp the lenses are, etc.), few systems can match the S3, including (IMHO) the latest M11 and SL2 offerings from Leica, and FF & MF flagships to come out of Japan. I've owned or shot them all, and every time I go back to my S3 I'm reminded just how good it is, and pixel peeping is not required to see the difference as is usually the case for the other systems.
 

steveash

New member
A mirrorless S4 would be bliss. 100% agree regarding anybody talking poorly about S system. For anybody who cares about stills IQ (all aspects, not just a single dimension like how sharp the lenses are, etc.), few systems can match the S3, including (IMHO) the latest M11 and SL2 offerings from Leica, and FF & MF flagships to come out of Japan. I've owned or shot them all, and every time I go back to my S3 I'm reminded just how good it is, and pixel peeping is not required to see the difference as is usually the case for the other systems.
I haven’t tried the S3 but your description relates to my experience from the older S models. I get great results from the X1D but if budget allowed Id go for the S3 over anything.

On the future of Hasselblad, I’d love to see what a mirrorless studio camera could be like. Perhaps a big high res screen and built in movements?
 

Paul Spinnler

Active member
A mirrorless S4 would be bliss. 100% agree regarding anybody talking poorly about S system. For anybody who cares about stills IQ (all aspects, not just a single dimension like how sharp the lenses are, etc.), few systems can match the S3, including (IMHO) the latest M11 and SL2 offerings from Leica, and FF & MF flagships to come out of Japan. I've owned or shot them all, and every time I go back to my S3 I'm reminded just how good it is, and pixel peeping is not required to see the difference as is usually the case for the other systems.
Precisely my feeling. It is under appreciated because most don't want to pay the price for the body and because they don't market it strongly. Fuji also created a lower entry price, but IMHO the build and lens quality doesn't hold a candle to the Leica system.

It is a tour de force and worth every cent. The reason it is expensive is because the sensor is very expensive and difficult in terms of supply (given low batch size). It has a unique look, imaging pipeline and dual gain structure. I think most customers of the system are repeat customers ... and when the S4 comes I will get it in a heartbeat. Everyone doubting the system should just borrow it at their local Leica dealer for a weekend. Highly recommend trying out the 24, 35, 100, 120. Difficult to convey to someone who hasn't used it and seen the files. There's just these beautiful nuggets in the system, for example the 100 for environmental portraits ...
 
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TechTalk

Active member
...Speculation on Hasselblad’s future has become an art form, countless word battles over the decades across the Internet; but they have been around forever and I suspect they will continue to endure.

Go get a camera and make some photographs; have fun and be happy. Bitcoin is for speculation (or is it the other way around?).
...Are you saying Hasseblad is responsible of reflex ending ??? It its not about the final of H system, it is about the ending of mirrors!!!...
Hmh, future of Hasselblad again. Who knows?... I'm not expecting a new camera every year.
I think Ralf makes a good point. We remember years ago when nearly all camera companies came out with a new body (or bodies!) every 12-14 months. Those days are gone. The cameras are too good, and it isn't viable to maintain that upgrade pace, the sales won't support it. So most camera companies now have substantially longer cycles between new camera introductions. Hasselblad has never really hung their hat on being first to market, but they make an excellent product, they're an iconic brand, and I think their products are worth waiting for if you like what they do. The camera manufacturers have adjusted their pace, we just have to keep that in mind when we get itchy.
"Speculation on Hasselblad’s future has become an art form, countless word battles over the decades across the Internet; but they have been around forever and I suspect they will continue to endure." I think that sums it up rather nicely The quotes above, as well as others too numerous to include, present a reasonable assessment in my opinion.

The endless speculation, assumptions, and assertions common to online forums are the balance, I suppose, for all the excellent information to be found. The future is notoriously hard to predict, especially for camera manufacturers of any kind who have been on a rollercoaster of rapid changes in technology and consumer demand for a couple of decades.
 

TechTalk

Active member
Public release of financial statements, for calendar year 2021, for Scandinavian companies like Hasselblad and Phase One will be available later this summer. If it's of any solace to those worried about Hasselblad, their most recent publicly available financial statement from 2020 showed a pretax profit of €4.5 million on sales of €73.5 million due to the success of the mirrorless X system and in particular the launch of the 907X in Q3 of 2019. It was a big jump in sales from 2019 where they saw a small pretax loss of €289,000 on sales of 45.8 million. The combined result of the last two reported years was a profit of over €4 million.

By comparison, Phase One Group ApS (Phase One A/S + Capture One A/S and their respective subsidiaries) ended 2020 with a loss of €10.9 million on sales of €68.9 million. The Capture One software division actually did quite well in 2020 with a profit of €5.5 million on sales of €22.6 million. Unfortunately, the Phase One hardware division had losses much greater than the profit generated by software sales. 2020 is the first year for which hardware and software are now two separate corporations and divisions within the group, which makes hardware/software financial comparisons possible for the first time.

2020, bad as it was, is actually an improvement over 2019 which resulted in a loss €14.5 million on revenue of €72 million for Phase One Group ApS. The combined result of the last two reported years was a loss of €25.4 million.

So, am I worried about Phase One because of two bad years of losses? NO! Profits and losses turn quickly up and down largely dependent on product cycles and changes in consumer demand. Years of losses and years of profits can rapidly alternate and often have! Hasselblad and Phase one have both experienced this over the last 25 years and they're both still here! There's no reason to think that the resources aren't there for Phase One to create new products that are profitable.

Concern over rumors, gossip, and speculation has never helped to create a better photograph. So, to quote wise advice from Mr. Jecxz again: "Go get a camera and make some photographs; have fun and be happy." My advice is to do it with whatever camera makes you happy!
 
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bab

Active member
Something not right w that picture?…don’t you think?
73.5 in sales and they only had 4.5 pre tax profit Sorry don’t buy those numbers.
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TechTalk

Active member
Something not right w that picture?…don’t you think?
No. I think that they are the audited figures published in the publicly available government mandated Consolidated Financial Statements / Annual Reports for the companies mentioned because those are the sources from which they're derived. I would assume that it's obvious that annual profits or loses vary tremendously and are not governed by anything other than the individual performance of individual companies for a given year.

Sorry don’t buy those numbers.
You don't have to buy them. They're available at no charge to anyone that wants them. You just have to take some time to figure out the corporate structure and then study them closely enough to understand exactly what is being represented. Reading all of the footnotes is very useful in that endeavor.
 

rollsman44

Active member
How much better is the Phase One as opposed to Fuji GFX 50S ii The IBIS on the Fuji is awesome even with heavy lenses. I know there is a BIG price difference between the 2 but is there a BIG difference in IQ. Ty. I mean comparing Mp to Mp (50) I happen to like the XF system BUT the price of the Lenses are 2-3 times more than Fuji Gf lenses which I happen to like the Skin tones. I have wanted to get into a Phase one XF with 1 or 2 lenses BUT I cant Justify the cost. Also, I dont require more than 50 mp . Thanks
 
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