Future of Hassy- Bleak or Bright?

[TechTalk]

cant find the original link anymore, but here is a link pointing to a part of the article [ original was in chinese with pics]

Here's a link in English and with a video. If anyone wants to believe that the images aren't amateurish Photoshop efforts and can't see any issues, you're welcome to believe what you wish. The fellow in the video promoting the rumor was unaware that DJI had acquired Hasselblad over 5 years ago. So, there is that to consider. The notion that the photos circulating are "leaked" is highly suspicious to me and wasn't worth the time it took to zoom in and look at the blotchy pasting and cloning.

 

[TechTalk]

We've had speculation and rumors based on photos of dubious origin and authenticity. We've had speculation and rumors for three years based on an X1D design patent filed by DJI in China. [A design patent is protection from knockoffs of your product that are too similar to yours in appearance. It's a patent on how a product looks.] In the U.S. the design patent for the X1D is under Hasselblad's name. Design patents are not an indication of anything other than your desire to protect the unique look of your product from imitators. It's logical that in China DJI holds the design patent given that they're based there. In the U.S. it's Hasselblad as they've had a subsidiary located there to protect their trademarks and patents for decades before DJI existed. I wouldn't get too excited over design patents. It's the utility patents which cover functionality of a device.

Hasselblad received a design patent in December, 2019 for the V1D concept camera that they showed in 2016 at Photokina. These design patents are not about function. Those that want to speculate can continue (and likely will) with rumors based on a camera's appearance as seen in design patents or Photoshopped images from rumor sites.

But if you want something more substantial (and functional) about which to speculate, the link below is to the utility patent granted this year to Hasselblad for a camera sensor image stabilizer. I'm happy because it also mentions multi-shot applications in the patent and I've been using multi-shot for 25 years.

https://uspto.gov/Hasselblad Image Stabilization Patent-11228713-Jan-18-2022

The patent above was filed in July, 2020 as a continuation of another patent filing from 2018. So, this appears to be a long term research and development project for them.

 

[da_eltsch]

It is my personal goal anytime someone mentions this to bring up the dicomed bigshot 60mm by 60mm fairchild CCD.
Also is it not true 6x6 film is really 56mm by 56mm? I thought the 60/80Mp Dalsa CCDs made it to 53.9 at least, 2.1mm is very close!

Speaking of the S3, did they even make any of its sibling, the S30|45? I have never seen anyone here with one.

So my dealer has the S3 in stock. And we had once been working together with an S30/45 (actually quite nice solution from Sinar) . When I decided to go digital on the tech canm, I took it into serious consideration also with reasonable pricing. We must all be aware this is a small niche of the photographic world so production numbers can not be expected to be in the tenths of thousands.

To be more precise the S30/45 is a sibling of the S007. S30/45 is just the remaining production, even the Sinar distributor in Germany offers reasonable combinations with the Hasselblad CFV II 50mp „back“. I just decided to go the Phase One route, because of the bigger sensor size and excellent integration with the capture one software. Did mean also much higher €€€, for sure.

Still don’t get why 33*44 would mean big (MF) and 30*45 would mean small (more or less FF). That difference is from my personal point of view deniable

 

[tcdeveau]

We've had speculation and rumors based on photos of dubious origin and authenticity. We've had speculation and rumors for three years based on an X1D design patent filed by DJI in China. [A design patent is protection from knockoffs of your product that are too similar to yours in appearance. It's a patent on how a product looks.] In the U.S. the design patent for the X1D is under Hasselblad's name. Design patents are not an indication of anything other than your desire to protect the unique look of your product from imitators. It's logical that in China DJI holds the design patent given that they're based there. In the U.S. it's Hasselblad as they've had a subsidiary located there to protect their trademarks and patents for decades before DJI existed. I wouldn't get too excited over design patents. It's the utility patents which cover functionality of a device.

Hasselblad received a design patent in December, 2019 for the V1D concept camera that they showed in 2016 at Photokina. These design patents are not about function. Those that want to speculate can continue (and likely will) with rumors based on a camera's appearance as seen in design patents or Photoshopped images from rumor sites.

But if you want something more substantial (and functional) about which to speculate, the link below is to the utility patent granted this year to Hasselblad for a camera sensor image stabilizer. I'm happy because it also mentions multi-shot applications in the patent and I've been using multi-shot for 25 years.

https://uspto.gov/Hasselblad Image Stabilization Patent-11228713-Jan-18-2022

The patent above was filed in July, 2020 as a continuation of another patent filing from 2018. So, this appears to be a long term research and development project for them.

Hasselblad has been busy on the patent front....they have several pending application families in various jurisdictions that were filed in the last 2-3 years. Good sign for R&D. If anyone is interested there's a link below to google patents:

Google Patents

Search and read the full text of patents from around the world with Google Patents, and find prior art in our index of non-patent literature.

patents.google.com

 

[sog1927]

Hasselblad has been busy on the patent front....they have several pending application families in various jurisdictions that were filed in the last 2-3 years. Good sign for R&D. If anyone is interested there's a link below to google patents:

Google Patents

Search and read the full text of patents from around the world with Google Patents, and find prior art in our index of non-patent literature.

patents.google.com

Well, they've certainly been looking at image stabilization, haven't they?

 

[TechTalk]

Hasselblad has been busy on the patent front....they have several pending application families in various jurisdictions that were filed in the last 2-3 years. Good sign for R&D. If anyone is interested there's a link below to google patents:

Google Patents

Search and read the full text of patents from around the world with Google Patents, and find prior art in our index of non-patent literature.

patents.google.com

Thanks for the link. Many of the patents for improvements in autofocus, viewfinder optics, and lens mechanics appear to be coming from DJI Japan engineers assigned to work with Hasselblad. It's nice to have a parent company with a passion for research, development, and engineering... and the money to support it.

Back in Sweden, the image stabilization patent credits an engineer as inventor that has been working at Hasselblad since 1979. He went to work for Hasselblad shortly after getting his master's degree in engineering at Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg (Göteborg). Hasselblad's location has always been an asset due to having one of the world's best engineering universities in its backyard.

 

[tcdeveau]

Adding on to the X2D story-

More Hasselblad X2D medium format camera rumors and leaks - Photo Rumors

The previously reported rumors about a new Hasselblad X2D medium format camera were recently confirmed by a Hasselblad rep in France: 100MP sensor Adjustable screen Improved Live View Top LCD screen Better AF IBIS stabilization Three new lenses will be announced together with the X2D One of the...

photorumors.com

sounds pretty good to me if the rumors are accurate

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Adding on to the X2D story-

More Hasselblad X2D medium format camera rumors and leaks - Photo Rumors

The previously reported rumors about a new Hasselblad X2D medium format camera were recently confirmed by a Hasselblad rep in France: 100MP sensor Adjustable screen Improved Live View Top LCD screen Better AF IBIS stabilization Three new lenses will be announced together with the X2D One of the...

photorumors.com

sounds pretty good to me if the rumors are accurate

For 8k I d get one … is the price of one phase one XT lens … !

 

[tcdeveau]

For 8k I d get one … is the price of one phase one XT lens … !

Fure sure…if they can keep the price around that or lower I’ll be a happy man.

curious about AF improvements - any sort of subject detection AF would be nice.

Also curious about the new lenses! their current lens selection doesn’t leave me wanting much buta telephoto zoom would be nice

 

[TechTalk]

their current lens selection doesn’t leave me wanting much buta telephoto zoom would be nice

The current XCD lenses do provide a nice range and the image quality is exceptional. There is definitely room to add one or more zoom lenses to the range. The current XCD 35-75 mm zoom out performs many prime lenses made for that sensor diagonal size. [33 x 44 mm sensors have a 55 mm diagonal. Leica 30 x 45 mm sensors are a 54 mm diagonal] Actually, it outperforms most prime lenses of comparable viewing angle regardless of format. I hope any future Hasselblad zooms are of similar quality! It's a pretty spectacular lens.

Here's a link to the XCD 35-75 mm Zoom Datasheet for anyone that wants to compare. I've attached a comparison of the Hasselblad XCD 35-75 mm zoom to the Leica Summarit-S 35 mm f/2.5 ASPH. and Leica Summarit-S 70 mm f/2.5 ASPH. primes, which are both excellent lenses, as an example of the quality of the current XCD zoom. It's an excellent example of what kind of image quality can be attained with modern mirrorless lenses.

Datasheets for Hasselblad XCD lenses are available here by selecting individual lenses. Datasheets for Leica S-lenses are available **here for download. Leica does not have a data sheet to download for the Super-Elmar-S 24 mm f/3.5 ASPH. on their website, but it is available from Capture Integration here. I'm happy that Hasselblad and Leica provide users with lens data including MTF performance and wish that Phase One would offer comparable lens data as well.

* Leica MTF data is shown for 5, 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm. Hasselblad MTF data is shown for 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm.
** A few days after I posted the link, Leica S lens datasheets were no longer available from their download section. It may just be a temporary glitch on their website.

 

[TechTalk]

In the message above, I attached a comparison of the Hasselblad XCD 35-75 mm zoom to the Leica S 35 mm and 70 mm prime lenses. I neglected to compare it to the Leica 30-90 mm zoom which is the nearest equivalent Leica lens. So, I have attached a comparison and will provide links below.

The Leica Vario-Elmar-S 30-90 mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom does have more range, but is not available in a CS (central shutter / leaf shutter) version. It sells for $12,495. The Hasselblad XCD 35-75 f/3.5-4.5 mm zoom has a shorter range, but does include a leaf shutter. It sells for $5,175. Both lenses are expensive, but are excellent lenses for the sensor size that they cover. Full datasheets are available from the Hasselblad and Leica websites linked for each lens.

* Leica MTF data is shown for 5, 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm. Hasselblad MTF data is shown for 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm.

 

[fjablo]

Both lenses are expensive, but are excellent lenses for the sensor size that they cover.

A somewhat polite statement towards the Leica lens in comparison to the Hasselblad, at least when comparing sharpness/MTF
That 35-75mm is crazy good.

 

[tcdeveau]

My only issue with the 35-75 is that I don’t use mine enough, that’s a personal issue of course and nothing to do with the lens itself

 

[TechTalk]

A somewhat polite statement towards the Leica lens in comparison to the Hasselblad, at least when comparing sharpness/MTF
That 35-75mm is crazy good.

Well, most lenses have been polite to me over the years, so I'm polite in return. There is so much ethereal smoke blown around online with regard to lens quality, I thought the lenses should be allowed to speak for themselves once in awhile thru the data sheets, thoughtfully provided by Hasselblad and Leica, and their MTF curves. As others before me have said regarding MTF charts... MTF charts won't tell you everything about a lens, but they will tell you quite a bit.

The Hasselblad XCD 35-75 mm is quite an achievement in zoom lens quality.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I love the S24 - it is a marvel in practice. I think there's something to be said regarding the fact that the S lenses are at this stage almost 15 year old lens designs made for a medium format mirror based body; we can only estimate what the new apo S line for the mirrorless body will be like. I would assume nothing else than staggering in comparison, akin to the APO SL lenses in 35mm land. Ie, it is also a bit apples to oranges when you compare a mirrorless lens design to a mirror based lens design and it is to be assumed that the next S line will be another leap in performance compared to anything available in medium format.

I cannot wait for 2024.

 

[KC_2020]

The Hasselblad XCD 35-75 mm is quite an achievement in zoom lens quality.

It's quite an achievement in lens quality, period.

It's the only XCD lens I own for the moment. Waiting to see what's coming next.

 

[TechTalk]

It's quite an achievement in lens quality, period.

You're right. It really is amazing to see how it compares to lenses that you would never have thought to compare it with previously.

What I find impressive with the XCD lens line is how consistent image quality is from center to corner throughout the entire lens range. The 35-75 mm zoom also shows an incredible consistency in image quality throughout its entire zoom range.

 

[TechTalk]

I think there's something to be said regarding the fact that the S lenses are at this stage almost 15 year old lens designs made for a medium format mirror based body... it is also a bit apples to oranges when you compare a mirrorless lens design to a mirror based lens design...

Those are interesting observations. I've seen praise for the Leica S lenses, which they deserve, that didn't include any reference to their age or the fact that they're SLR lenses. Despite the apples to oranges observation, I've seen a fair amount of comparisons made between Leica and Hasselblad lenses in this forum and elsewhere. Sometimes, the apples and oranges are different sensor formats rather than SLR and mirrorless.

Some narratives appear to have a somewhat dismissive undertone to them in which Hasselblad sounds a bit like a poor cousin that can't really be expected to achieve the kind of fantastic results that Leica does. For example, I've seen the view expressed that: The X lenses are contract manufactured lenses made in Asia based on a certain cost budget and profitability requirement. The ability to iretate [iterate] development / invest in quality in that scenario is totally different than what Leica is able to do with their in-house optics team which works hand in hand with the mechanical engineering department which in turn builds custom machinery to mass-produce the APO SL line at tolerances which are a whole notch above anything else in 35mm land. This is not to say the X lenses aren't great in real life, it is just not at the level of the Leica APO SL primes...

Mirrorless and lower flange distance combined with Leica's design prowess on the optical side would create the best camera system in the world, arguably, as Phase One and Hassy need to resort to contract R&D and lens manufacturing in Japan for their lenses meaning there's also not so much wiggle room to push the frontier of optics design when commissioning a new lens line as every trial and error cycle would create additional costs, etc. This is why Leica will always have a competitive advantage by having their highly experienced in-house optics department with 100s of years of combined design experience ...

Look at the APO SL lenses - probably the best corrected lens line in 35mm format currently available - took them quite a bit of R&D to marry cost efficiency, production processes, etc. to create a truly stunning and well corrected line; I mean try to create CA with the new 28 APO SL ... or the new Apo 35 M for that matter ... Hassy on the other hand has good Japanese designed lenses with smaller apertures, but nothing utterly fantastic (except the 80 1.9) as it seems to me outside-in.

That's a few samples, representing a particular viewpoint, which I've recently seen comparing Leica and Hasselblad's lens design and production capabilities. We all have our opinions, of course, and should feel free to express them as we choose and to present our individual points of view.

As for comparisons, apples, and oranges; for now, if someone wishes to compare Leica and Hasselblad XCD lenses, the comparison is either going to be between lenses made for mirrorless and SLR cameras of similar sensor size or comparison between lenses made for different format sizes. Comparing Hasselblad XCD lenses to smaller format Leica SL lenses would be an interesting challenge for Hasselblad; as generally speaking, lenses for larger formats will be at a disadvantage when compared to smaller format lenses. Similarly, zoom lenses are typically at a disadvantage when compared to prime lenses. Lenses covering larger format sizes or providing more than one focal length present additional design and production challenges.

 

[TechTalk]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how the Hasselblad XCD 35-75 mm zoom would hold up compared to a Leica SL lens with the same viewing angle. The XCD zoom at 35 mm has a 77° angle of view and the Leica APO-Summicron-SL 28 mm has an angle of view of 75.4°, close enough for me. But, a medium-format zoom lens compared to a top quality full-frame format prime lens... now that's a tough comparison! I'll attach an MTF comparison or you can download the lens data sheets from the links provided for a more complete comparison.

* Leica MTF data is shown for 5, 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm. Hasselblad MTF data is shown for 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm.

 

[TechTalk]

One person at Hasselblad who has helped to determine their present, and likely their future as well, is lead optical designer Per Nordlund. I've linked a brief biography which includes a short discussion of development of the HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift Adapter. Lens design is a team effort and Per Nordlund is the leader of the design team producing lenses for Hasselblad. I've rarely seen him quoted or interviewed.

The only video interview with him that I've seen is from a webinar in 2020 which is about an hour long. I linked to it in another thread, but will do so again here for those that may be interested. The first half of the video discusses the history of "V" and "H" lens designs including a couple of special designs from Zeiss: the 60mm f/5.6 Biogon which was designed specifically for the moon landing and the 250mm f/5.6 Superachromat Sonnar.

The second half of the video discusses in some detail the lens design process including the use of lens design software tools. They also discuss development of the XCD 30 mm lens as an example and show various iterations of the design as it progressed over several months of development. It's a little dry, as these remote conference videos tend to be, but I found it worth watching.