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General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

What are your thoughts?
 

SrMphoto

Active member
I cannot help myself but I find the S1R a really intriguing camera, although for many of my purposes the S1 might be more than sufficient ...

What are your thoughts?
Interesting camera, IMO with following benefits: great EVF, 180Mp high-resolution mode, can use Leica L lenses.
I wonder in what cases I would use an S1R instead of a Z 7.
This is not an attempt to bash S1R but to find a justification to buy S1R :).
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Interesting camera, IMO with following benefits: great EVF, 180Mp high-resolution mode, can use Leica L lenses.
I wonder in what cases I would use an S1R instead of a Z 7.
This is not an attempt to bash S1R but to find a justification to buy S1R :).
For me all comes down to the lenses available of a somehow mature system - say in 2-3 years. All I want is FF mirrorless with resolution around 40-60MP, 4k video with 60p, IBIS and a great lineup of lenses. And great AF (AI and machine learning etc.).

I am aware that this system will be heavier (much heavier) than my m43 gear but for the occasions I want to shoot this I would not care1
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
For me all comes down to the lenses available of a somehow mature system - say in 2-3 years. All I want is FF mirrorless with resolution around 40-60MP, 4k video with 60p, IBIS and a great lineup of lenses. And great AF (AI and machine learning etc.). ...
Is that all? :toocool: LOL! :cool:


We are such camera addicts.

I'm pretty happy with what I have now. Never say never, but this new Panasonic system is not interesting to me ... I already had the SL and loved it, used it a lot, and then found it really isn't what I want now. Interests and ideas change. The CL I replaced it with is getting the bulk of my use, although I'm heading off on a cruise and leaving it behind—I'll carry only the Light L16 and a table-top tripod for this trip, in addition to my iPhone. :D

And I'm working on my current fantasy ... an Instax SQ instant film back for my Hasselblad V system ... and enjoying/using the other gear I have a lot at present.

But the Panasonic S1/S1R look good. Their Lumix L1 was excellent in that day too, and still is (my friend back East is still doing assignments with the one I sold him).

onwards, G
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I know you will not like this guy, but after listening to this I thought he is unfortunately right in a lot of his arguments ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFSxbLxnFQ&feature=em-lbcastemail

After watching and reading the reviews out there already I must say I have similar feelings now ...
So he's pissed off because he wasn't invited to the party?

Honestly, he lists every area where the S1/R is superior to one or more other cameras and finds a disadvantage. He also keeps repeating that only three lenses are available, which is an outright lie. There's a reason why Panasonic joined forces with Leica.

Here's an example:
He complains about the 180fps 1080p, and it isn't perfect. But how many non-Panasonic cameras below $5,000 offer 180fps 1080p?

Sorry, the guy is nothing but a Youtube clown, and I'm ashamed that I listened to his drivel for more than 15 minutes.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I turned him off after about 80 seconds. Drivel, whine whine, drivel drivel. Sheesh. :D

G
 

SrMphoto

Active member

PeterA

Well-known member
At one stage he actually said "no one will buy this camera"....what else do you need to know?
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Folks - WRT Northrop video, sorry for posting this!

Have had so much negative feedback already that I will also no longer listen to him!

Best regards

Peter
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
A simple solution. I always have sound off when clicking on YouTube.
Then leave that web page. Problem solved. :LOL:
 

iiiNelson

Active member
Regarding Tony Northrup - he puts out "clickbait" type videos about once a month to elicit a response in traffic. It's a good model for him because he can spread the effects of the video after he either plays victim to the backlash within the next week or two or has people agree with him and turn it around to spread the idea that people interested in the camera are a "handful of crazy people." Either way, "he wins" on some level. Personally, I've written a long response in the past to one of his videos that highlighted this exact thing and WHY he receives the response he gets by making bold blanket statements that are more subjective to the user than factual across the board... and how many photographers across the world do things with "lesser cameras" by finding workarounds. IMO there's no doubt that things like advanced subject tracking, eye AF, advanced video features, etc. in premium cameras make the jobs easier (provided they operate as advertised) but I've shot concerts with Leica M's, Safari's using manual focusing lenses for 90%+ of shots, street photography with telephotos, and all kinds of things I wasn't supposed to be able to do (according to some) without electronic aids. All that being said, I'm in a position financially to afford higher end cameras so that's the route I usually take when the upgrade is actually worth it to me for what I personally do and many of the electronic aids like Eye AF are invaluable to me in many areas now that I'm used to it. For me it comes down to I can offload worrying about focusing and spend that time getting a few extra shots with different framing within the same time constraints because I do have a level of trust for my gear. That's really the underlying purpose of higher end gear - to make it easier to get THE shot.

One of my personal internal goals is to reduce the negativity around me because there seems to be way too much of it worldwide in real life. The last thing I want/need is to have to see/hear it online in my free time... so I'm taking a more solutions-oriented approach - even in my critical discussions. It's easy for me to pick apart most cameras on what's lacking but I stand by my consistent thoughts that there aren't many bad cameras these days... just a lot of subjective deal breakers across the board based on the user.

Regarding the Lumix S series here are my initial impressions based on the information passively absorbed (and forgotten) thus far.

Image Quality: The JPEG engine seems to be pretty good and exactly what I'd expect
from a "FF G9" if you will. There seems to be a good amount of dynamic range captured in many of the landscape shots and shadow recovery (based on hands-on impressions) seems to be good even within the JPEG's. Most people also commented on the excellent color and black and white profiles that don't seem to require much editing and this is a thing I've always liked about Panasonic cameras going back 10+ years to the G1 for me.

Regarding ISO performance the S1R is relatively clean at 12800 and usable to 25600 IMO. The S1 is relatively clean at 25600 and still usable out to 102400 IMO. This is a great thing as it puts the high ISO performance roughly a stop ahead of the direct competition and makes the reality of the f/4 lenses available at launch matter just a little bit less as of now.

Body: It's a mixed bag but most things have been extremely positive when it comes to the build and the size of the body when used with the lenses that are on the larger side of things. This is probably my biggest "complaint" of my Sony system in that I feel like the grip is always "required" if you've limited your kit to the Sony Zeiss or Sony GM lenses as I currently do. Another highlight is that the layout and haptic feel of the cameras has earned high marks from the testers that come in a variety of sized from average sized women to larger men (I'm 6'3" and about 230 so I like some size). It seems like many in the industry are driving the point that there is room for some larger mirrorless bodies when professional photographers are the primary demographic. Again this camera continues the "FF G9" brand ethos and design.

Lenses: Mixed bag from those that have not used them and mostly positive for those that have.

In short, those that have used them stated that they are high quality and cover the basic working range of 95% of all photography with the obvious omission that none of the lenses will fully satisfy landscape or wildlife photographers just yet. The Lumix S Pro lenses (currently the 50/1.4 and 70-200/4) are "certified by Leica" and in that regard, it is clear that Panasonic and Leica didn't want to create any confusion in L-Mount lens pricing strategy between Panasonic branded Leica lenses and actual real Leica lenses.

The seemingly loudest voices with the boldest statements tend to be the ones that haven't used the camera or lenses (per usual for the internet). A lot of this is coming from a place of old guard thinking based on how Canon and Nikon structured their own lineup with faster/more exotic glass being the "pro" lenses and slower apertures representing "consumer" grade lenses... in their eyes. It's a huge reason why some people gave Nikon "grief" for introducing f/1.8 lenses or balk at Sony pricing the 55/1.8 at $999 at launch when their old "nifty 50" only costs them $150... well all lenses aren't created equally but I'd agree that there is a point of diminishing returns as you go higher end in ANY market. A Mercedes or BMW isn't three times as reliable as your average Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc. but you pay for prestige, a level of luxury, the name, and the premium service experiences. The Lumix S Pro 50/1.4 will likely approach or maybe exceed Zeiss Otus performance but the Sigma Art 50 comes close too... the point is to pick what works for you but I expect a lot of the higher price of the lenses is that they are designed to be optimal for photo AND video. No one that I'm aware of (besides maybe Sony thus far) has kept this part of mirrorless lens design for hybrid shooters in mind like Panasonic.

Regarding the pricing on the body and lenses, I'm sure there's an "L-Mount licensing tax" that Panasonic and Sigma will likely have to pay Leica to remain within the alliance. It is what it is and the price is the price. If one can afford it then great but if not there are other capable FF options from other companies.

Features: I'm not a huge video guy but the features provided seem to be capable with a few workarounds. If the video performance is the primary concern the GH line may still be better... or just invest into a dedicated video camera and stop compromising as much. One exciting thing is that this camera will receive access to the paid V-LOG upgrade (what's in the Panasonic Varicam line) and not V-LOG L (whats in the GH line) so that tells you where they eventually see the Lumix S series going and which market it'll play in.

EVF industry and class-leading... nothing else needs to be said.

Battery life... this may be the most power hungry camera on the market as it has a battery with nearly 50% more amperage capacity than generation 3 Sony bodies and almost half the CIPA rated battery life it seems. Thankfully there are multiple powering options through USB, camera grips, and battery packs. Not a serious concern of mine personally as I'm not a high volume shooter usually unless it's a wedding.

One thing that got me extremely excited in the leaked specs (prior to official announcement) was the inclusion of 2:1 and 65:24 crop in camera. Been asking for this from Sony in their R bodies for a good 2+ years now... still hasn't happened. Igenerallydothis
inpost when wanted for some shots but having it in camera so I can get the framing right in camera is huge.

Autofocus... the biggest elephant in the room and my own biggest personal concern. I have no doubt the Autofocus will be adequate most of the time for stills but in the video department, the CDAF fluttering/pulsing/pumping can just be distracting. Panasonic really either needs to begin incorporating PDAF or find a way to solve this issue with autofocus lenses (yes I know using manual lenses corrects the concern).

Competition: My first thought when these cameras were announced and seeing the general praise they've received by actual users is that Panasonic JUST gave Sony permission to answer with R/S variants of the A9, then gave CaNikon permission to release higher-end RF and Z camera variants sooner rather than later. This is a great thing and one of the reasons that I'm going to hold off until the summertime at best before seriously considering any switch from Sony (and also because I feel like the cameras won't' do as well commercially as Panasonic hopes initially until some price drops/rebates happen). The bottom line is that people have yet another serious option to cross-shop in their research so while I don't agree initially that this is really "full frame without compromise" (because nothing really is uncompromised) I do feel like this may be full frame with minimal compromises.
 
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SrMphoto

Active member
<snip>

Autofocus... the biggest elephant in the room and my own biggest personal concern. I have no doubt the Autofocus will be adequate most of the time for stills but in the video department, the CDAF fluttering/pulsing/pumping can just be distracting. Panasonic really either needs to begin incorporating PDAF or find a way to solve this issue with autofocus lenses (yes I know using manual lenses corrects the concern).

<snip>
Panasonic is using DFD, not CDAF. DFD is based on detailed knowledge about a lens:
"DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field." (Panasonic)

I found it works very well on Panasonic's m43 camera when compared to PDAF on Olympus m43 cameras.
On-chip PDAF does not eliminate hunting as CDAF is often the last part of the focusing process (trim step) and leads occasionally to pulsing as well.

The advantage of DFD is that you do not require on-chip PDAF sensors, which probably means that you are not dependent on Sony sensors, have no issues because of lack of cross-sensors and that there is no risk of banding (the latter is more theoretical than practical, IMO).
 

iiiNelson

Active member
Panasonic is using DFD, not CDAF. DFD is based on detailed knowledge about a lens:
"DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field." (Panasonic)

I found it works very well on Panasonic's m43 camera when compared to PDAF on Olympus m43 cameras.
On-chip PDAF does not eliminate hunting as CDAF is often the last part of the focusing process (trim step) and leads occasionally to pulsing as well.

The advantage of DFD is that you do not require on-chip PDAF sensors, which probably means that you are not dependent on Sony sensors, have no issues because of lack of cross-sensors and that there is no risk of banding (the latter is more theoretical than practical, IMO).
Hello and yes I'm aware of Panasonic's autofocus technology.

The comparison really comes down to camera makers like Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. that use a hybrid combination of PDAF (reacts faster and attacks focus acquisition more assuredly in general) and CDAF (tends to be more accurate but is constantly "hunting/pulsing/pumping" in continuous focus) versus Panasonic that uses CDAF based system with some "machine learning" in DFD involved that has enhanced focus acquisition speed versus the typical based CDAF system.

The issue for me personally comes down purely to continuous AF/Tracking speed and video AF where Panasonic has earned their questionable reputation SPECIFICALLY in these modes compared to Canon "Dual Pixel" or Sony "4D" tracking (all marketing speak for proprietary advanced AF like DFD for Panasonic). I've had good luck in single point AF generally speaking with Panasonic cameras but really that's my biggest concern about these cameras. All that said I haven't made any final conclusions until I can try them for myself but it is a concern based on past models and the complaints of many Lumix GH/G owners.

I don't have any strong comments towards Olympus... I don't own any of their cameras any longer and the one that I did - I had a bad experience with and will likely never buy another... I'll leave it at that.

So I don't totally disagree with your assessments but I still have my concern (based on recent Panasonic flagship cameras using the same technology) because I saw some videos where the cameras were slower to focus (mind you using preproduction firmware), that hunted a bit in practical photographic applications and still had the same pulsing issues associated with any CDAF systems... I also can get this with my Sony when I drop below f/8 (because I don't have an A9 that's sensitive down to f/11 and soon to be f/16 with a firmware update) so it can be a problem there too once outside the range where PDAF is active.

Taken from their press release:

Panasonic’s advanced Contrast AF system with DFD technology has evolved through the development of numerous mirrorless cameras to make the AF system of the LUMIX S1R/S1 even more practical. It achieves not only the industry’s fastest level of focusing speed but also a tracking performance that is made possible by the adoption of advanced AI technology that accurately recognizes moving target subjects.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Taken from their press release:

Panasonic’s advanced Contrast AF system with DFD technology has evolved through the development of numerous mirrorless cameras to make the AF system of the LUMIX S1R/S1 even more practical. It achieves not only the industry’s fastest level of focusing speed but also a tracking performance that is made possible by the adoption of advanced AI technology that accurately recognizes moving target subjects.
This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!
 

iiiNelson

Active member
This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!
Well, that's my personal concern (as stated above in my processed thoughts from the info I could gather online) as it applies to video AF performance AND continuous AF performance. I don't know that they can make it better than a combination of CDAF and PDAF - but perhaps it doesn't actually have to scientifically or theoretically be better. If they can get it to be close enough to a hybrid AF system (Canon Dual Pixel and Sony Hybrid AF are the benchmarks as of today) to where it doesn't matter and come up with a system to minimize the pulsing effect then that'll be fine for everything for most people when you overlook the "bragging rights" factors.

Now what I will say is that the G9/GH5/GH5s updates released in October/November 2018 seem to have solved MOST of the issues that people had but it's still not "perfect." Even still, it's much better compared to where it was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdyGqWXON_U
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
This statement has yet to be proven! I would love it is true but we have to wait till the first real world reviews are in. If they managed to make CDAF and DFD a reliable and fast AF tracking technology with the new lenses then all would be photography AF heaven. Bt we first have to see if they really can deliver!
There's one thing I don't understand: Back in the day, I shot video from a few night drifting events using a GH3 and the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8. Admitedly, the 75mm has extremely fast AF, and there is unusually good contrast at night drifting events but I rarely had problems tracking the cars. Sometimes, I wonder if people have unrealistic expectations with regards to C-AF. I understand that Sony and Fuji are better, and I know that Olympus is better, but with a good lens, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Panasonic camera for sports if needed. Not the GX8 though. The GH3 was actually better.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
When do cameras get developed to the level where we get video frame grabs as being good enough to replace still shots - sometimes I get the feeling that is where it is all headed.
 
M

mjr

Guest
As the grumpy old bastard I am, why the hell do we need an af system that can pick out people and animals?? I have been able to pick out animals for 45 years, I think my first word was cat!

Whilst I think these 2 cameras are easily the best options now for what I'd want from a 35mm system, i. a good sized, solid, weather sealed camera with an evf that is probably useable, I hate the gfx evf experience, I can't help but feel sad at the fact that photography is moving so far away from being something that requires skill, knowledge and practice and more towards automated nonsense. I saw a video on youtube recently of a "pro" photographer shooting a model with 1 hand in his pocket, his other hand outstretched simply relying on the system to grab eye af, urgh, I'm old.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything not to like about what has been squeezed in to both the S1 and S1r, if I was in the market I'd definitely go try them out when released, they look great all-round cameras. As I'm not, I think I will go back to looking at a Leica m and a couple of nice lenses, just to enjoy the act of photography and knowing when it's right it was because i got it right, not the camera.

Told you I was a grumpy old bastard!

Mat
 
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