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General thoughts about S1 and/or S1R
- Thread starter ptomsu
- Start date
Hello,
I'm not sure how old this post is, but I thought that I would make a brief note in re the S1r. I'd been a Leica SL user, as well as a Sony A7rIII and Fuji GFX 50s user and so on, for a an unhappy interval, until the Panasonic S1r came along. While I still own the A7rIII—sold the others—and a bunch of GM lenses, the camera—too small—is rarely used nowadays. The S1r, on the other hand, is my favorite. Why? Ergonomics, analog controls (lots of dedicated and programmable buttons and levers) IBIS, and most of all its stunning IQ. So from my perspective, the S1r is beyond intriguing, and approaches nirvana.
biglouis
Well-known member
I doubt it. As I mentioned in my analysis above - and also as revealed in the full Dpreview test which is now up - DFD is poor for any kind of action/sports/wildlife photography. Not that I am in the market for one but I'd definitely choose the Z7 over either of the S1x cameras if I needed to photograph things which go fast.
LouisB
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Lous,
thanks so much for these thoughts and experiences! It helps me indeed very much!
originally I was thinking to buy a S1R in order to use my M glass. As I learned from Jono Slack in another thread and also from direct conversations with him there is definitely a big difference in shooting M lenses on a Leica M or a Leica SL compared to a S1/S1R. Now the S1 and S1R are ruled out for me for the use of M lenses.
Would I like to shoot a S1R for all my FF needs with AF? After your experiences with DFD I would definitely no longer prefer that, especially since the potential additional benefit of using it for M lenses evaporated. So NO, the S1/S1R are not for me and what I want to achieve.
I could try the Nikon Z cameras but after thinking about that for a while now I may very well take distance form that thought as I believe in the fact that M lenses are best fitting to a Leica M body. There are already some used and demo M10's arriving on the market, so the M becomes also a financially more viable option.
For sports and action I hardly need and want FF which means I am more than optimally positions with my Olympus PRO gear :thumbup: and a used Leica M10 or M10P.
So now you understand what you really helped me with your experiences and your answers :thumbs:
Many thanks again!
As several answers above attest, the main difference is in the lenses. While I have a stash of old Nikkors, they don't play in the same league as the SL lenses, unfortunately, so my £$ goes to Panasonic rather than Nikon. The position would change if I was to use the longer Nikkors, in particular, more. but the conventional wide-angle to 90mm does me fine for the mostpart. You must really know that you are going to use it, if you take the 200mm f2 VR Nikkor.
iiiNelson
Active member
Seems like the logical question to ask yourself is do you want AF, are lenses available on the systems that you want to shoot, and how much do you really miss the M lenses being that they’ve sat for years now without a M camera... I’m not attempting to persuade you one way or another but you keep coming back to the Nikon Z and the M lenses. They’re pretty much on the opposite side of the spectrum and many of the newest lenses are close enough to the newest Leica lenses... the Mandler lenses are a completely different situation but as I said previously - try out YOUR lenses for yourself on the Nikon and see if it meets YOUR expectations of acceptable performance. I’ve read a lot of tests that were all over the place regarding M lenses on Mirrorless and as far as Leica lenses go many were accurate but not all. It’s not JUST about cover glass, focal length, or software corrections though all three can play a major part in the equation. The fact is that each person needs to try the combos for themselves.
Joe Colson
Well-known member
Cost of entry just got cheaper by $700 USD:
Competition in this space is fierce.
Joe
Competition in this space is fierce.
Joe
Speedgraphic
Member
Well I have an S1R, 50mm 1.4 Pro, and Siggy 70 ART Macro (actually in EF mount with the adapter) coming my way next week. I bought it all used like new save for the Siggy. The new MSRP is really too high, especially on the 50. Though I guess I can rest easy in the knowledge that someone at Leica said "ok sure!" and they engraved it on the lens. :ROTFL: I thought about getting the Sigma 50, but I wanted all the AF performance I can get. If they nail the eye AF and face tracking it'll be worth the price of admission.
It's going to be a work camera for me. Some wedding and portrait stuff plus a ton of scanning of all formats from 35mm to 8x10. The combination of the Sigma 70mm which is a world class macro and pixel shift is I think going to give drum scanning a run for it's money. I should be able to make a file from a 4x5 or 8x10 piece of film that can match a 40" Epson printer, and at the end of the day who is really going bigger than that? No one I've encountered yet.
I don't know what attracted me to the Panny. Logic says I should have considered the Sony A7R4, but I've owned some Sonys before and I just didn't get along with them all that well. Plus you need Image Edge to process the pixel shift files, a non starter for me.
I'm likely going to be dumping my current Nikon kit as well as a Pentax K-1 II kit. I'll be keeping my Pentax FA Limiteds for my film camera of course, and the Panasonic. When wedding season starts up again next Spring I'll look into something simple that will work well with flash at receptions I suppose. Nothing a used D750 can't handle with a 1.8G lens. It's really just IR AF that keeps me shooting Nikon. I don't care how many minus-EVs the AF system says it can do, when you need to freeze a dancing couple there is nothing like IR AF.
It's going to be a work camera for me. Some wedding and portrait stuff plus a ton of scanning of all formats from 35mm to 8x10. The combination of the Sigma 70mm which is a world class macro and pixel shift is I think going to give drum scanning a run for it's money. I should be able to make a file from a 4x5 or 8x10 piece of film that can match a 40" Epson printer, and at the end of the day who is really going bigger than that? No one I've encountered yet.
I don't know what attracted me to the Panny. Logic says I should have considered the Sony A7R4, but I've owned some Sonys before and I just didn't get along with them all that well. Plus you need Image Edge to process the pixel shift files, a non starter for me.
I'm likely going to be dumping my current Nikon kit as well as a Pentax K-1 II kit. I'll be keeping my Pentax FA Limiteds for my film camera of course, and the Panasonic. When wedding season starts up again next Spring I'll look into something simple that will work well with flash at receptions I suppose. Nothing a used D750 can't handle with a 1.8G lens. It's really just IR AF that keeps me shooting Nikon. I don't care how many minus-EVs the AF system says it can do, when you need to freeze a dancing couple there is nothing like IR AF.
iiiNelson
Active member
It’s nice to hear user experiences and I was considering getting the Panasonic’s to replace my Sony kit... but with all of the AF disclaimers I’ve rethought it. I do believe that DFD will get to the point where it doesn’t matter if a person uses DFD or a hybrid PDAF system once the processing power significantly increases. At that point I will strongly consider the Panasonic... especially if Sony refuses to offer a larger body style. I seemingly love EVERYTHING about the IQ coming from the LUMIX S (mainly the way the color reproduction fidelity holds even in high ISO shots and access to the Leica APO-Summicron lenses to go alongside the Panasonic zooms) and I can see the pairing of a S1R and S1H being a perfect kit for me quite possibly.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
I must say that size wise the Panasonics are far too big and heavy for me. The A7R4 in contrast has just the perfect size for me even holding it with large lenses (100-400) and i balances pretty well. If I want more size I can always add the battery grip and for some occasions this combo will just be right. But I meanwhile prefer the compactness of the A7R4 body in its current incarnation! What comes close is the Nikon Z7 but first they do not offer a native 100-400 and second their AF implementation is still far behind Sony and third they use these XQD cards which I don't need and would mean a complete new storage ecosystem in my case. So most likely it will become Sony A7R4 with some selected lenses for my FF adventures :thumbup:
WRT DFD - I do no longer believe it will ever get close to the Sony implementations and I think even Nikon is already light years ahead in AF speed and accuracy. And to be honest as already mentioned - all Panasonic FF gear introduced so far is just FAR TOO HEAVY AND BIG for me and I have relatively large hands. Not sure what they are smoking
And finally I meanwhile have the highest trust in Sony's innovation capabilities - at least if they continue over the next years as they did over the past 5 years. I completely disliked what they brought to market in the beginning but with every release the hugely improved in a continuous way and NO other vendor could follow them even closely. Let alone that they obviously are reigning sensor design and development and this is an overall observation and not only related to MP count!
iiiNelson
Active member
Fair enough, but I'm just coming from relevant personal experience of having to work with the Sony FE series for years now specifically with their pro G-Master zooms. I don't have an issue with the primes personally though I have no use for the 400/2.8 or 600/4. I've tried the 400/28 (it was PM-R's personal copy) and it was amazing but I'm not buying one. If the 200-600 was a constant aperture then I would have purchased it this summer when I got to test one out in July... even still it's a great lens that is internal focusing and zooming if I remember correctly. I think the one caveat in the Sony system that may seal the deal with me staying put is that Tamron (interestingly enough) may have solved my biggest issue with their f/2.8 offerings. As such I've purchased the 17-28/2.8 and 28-75/2.8. I'm also planning on putting my name on the list for the 70-180/2.8 the day it's available in hopes that they'll balance well enough on the existing Sony bodies. If so then there's little reason for me to switch for incremental IQ differences and potential quality of life improvements. I already have a great collection of Sony FE lenses but I find the weight difference negligible between the A7RII and the Lumix S for the reason that I feel like the Sony pretty much requires people with larger hands to use the grip. When you factor that in then the weight difference is a matter of a few ounces and the volume of size is more or less about the same. With the f/1.8, f/2, some f/1.4 primes or the manual focusing Zeiss/Voigtlanders then the grip may not be needed as one could probably get by with the grip extender as most.I must say that size wise the Panasonics are far too big and heavy for me. The A7R4 in contrast has just the perfect size for me even holding it with large lenses (100-400) and i balances pretty well. If I want more size I can always add the battery grip and for some occasions this combo will just be right. But I meanwhile prefer the compactness of the A7R4 body in its current incarnation! What comes close is the Nikon Z7 but first they do not offer a native 100-400 and second their AF implementation is still far behind Sony and third they use these XQD cards which I don't need and would mean a complete new storage ecosystem in my case. So most likely it will become Sony A7R4 with some selected lenses for my FF adventures :thumbup:
WRT DFD - I do no longer believe it will ever get close to the Sony implementations and I think even Nikon is already light years ahead in AF speed and accuracy. And to be honest as already mentioned - all Panasonic FF gear introduced so far is just FAR TOO HEAVY AND BIG for me and I have relatively large hands. Not sure what they are smoking
And finally I meanwhile have the highest trust in Sony's innovation capabilities - at least if they continue over the next years as they did over the past 5 years. I completely disliked what they brought to market in the beginning but with every release the hugely improved in a continuous way and NO other vendor could follow them even closely. Let alone that they obviously are reigning sensor design and development and this is an overall observation and not only related to MP count!
I agree that Sony has the most tech innovations and it still the most cutting edge system for most purposes but I wouldn't discount what Panasonic (and other makers like Fuji) are doing. We will just have to agree to disagree on the future of DFD. I see it right now as being limited in effectiveness by processing power but as that advances there's no reason why the performance can't significantly improve in continuous AF IMO. The single point AF seems to be fine and is as fast as the best of the PDAF cameras not named A9, 1Dx, or D5. It's only the continuous that suffers ( which coincidently I've grown to love in Sony cameras for their accuracy and speed).
ptomsu
Workshop Member
While I can agree to all what you say, I completely disagree WRT DFD. IMO this will never become as good as PDAF/CDAF systems, even with faster and more powerful processing. It may become faster, but the conventional systems will always stay faster, because they can simply make use of the same processing power. I have to say that maybe it would become fast an accurate enough for your needs.
But for me DFD is a DEAD END. Hopefully Panasonic once will integrate conventional AF systems ....
iiiNelson
Active member
There was a time (not long ago) people said the same things about Sony’s hybrid AF never catching up to what Canon and Nikon were doing... it’s been faster and more accurate in general than DSLR’s for years now.
The point being that I could very well see a system like DFD advancing to the point where the difference between either is negligible or imperceptible to the end user. It’s close enough now in many situations. Where it currently falters is in lower light conditions with continuous. When the math and science gets good enough you can be assured that Panasonic will get to a point where their AF system isn’t a hindrance for MOST. I say that because there’s a commitment and we’ve seen substantial improvements from where they were 3 years ago with the GH5 where it wasn’t close to competing to now where it can meet or exceed many Mirrorless cameras that aren’t Sony cameras. You don’t have to believe me... the video evidence is out there. Again low light continuous AF isn’t as good as Sony but I think it’ll get close enough to not matter in time.
Speedgraphic
Member
Received my S1R. Not my AF lens just yet, but I did get my Pentax adapter so, the 43mm Limited is sitting on it.
Really nice feeling camera, with smart button layout. It more or less feels like a Nikon. I haven't dived too deep into the menus but it's all pretty intuitive. It's so easy to manually focus! Really, it's a slick camera. I like the size. If they're not going to make small lenses then don't bother making small cameras. That being said, my little Pentax pancake works well. If I ever get tired of shooting my LX, I'm sure it would be a nice walkaround kit. Sadly the S1R does not take Delta 100 or Ektachrome, so...it's mostly going to scan said films. I will be shooting it at a wedding in a couple weeks however, so it'll be interesting to see how it does.
The sensor has some specks on it though, I ordered a cleaning kit. *shrug*
Really nice feeling camera, with smart button layout. It more or less feels like a Nikon. I haven't dived too deep into the menus but it's all pretty intuitive. It's so easy to manually focus! Really, it's a slick camera. I like the size. If they're not going to make small lenses then don't bother making small cameras. That being said, my little Pentax pancake works well. If I ever get tired of shooting my LX, I'm sure it would be a nice walkaround kit. Sadly the S1R does not take Delta 100 or Ektachrome, so...it's mostly going to scan said films. I will be shooting it at a wedding in a couple weeks however, so it'll be interesting to see how it does.
The sensor has some specks on it though, I ordered a cleaning kit. *shrug*
Here is my feedback after using the S1r now for some months...
Overall it works quite well, the IQ I am satisfied. Noise can sometimes become obvious when bringing up shaddows, so exact exposure and trying to keep ISO 1600 and below. IBIS helps.
While I get along fine with UI I am still more used to the SL interface philosophy, with reduced numbers of buttons. The S1r has way more buttons than I need. The viewfinder I really like. C-AF, like the SL, is dissappointing IMO and has nothing to do with a professional camera.
At the moment I use the 16-35, and 50 and 75 SL-Summicrons. If I want lighter and a flexible kit I also use the 24-105 specially during vacations. The 24-105 does quite well, I still give the edge to the Leica lenses in regards of color rendering, 3-d look and sometimes the 24-105 can show a funky bokeh (only sometimes, I assume its a question of distance and f-stop).
The IQ specially with the Summicrons is very much to my taste, I even would say one step closer to medium format look. 2 downsides of those Leica lenses are price and weight. But I can live with the weight and price... I see it as a long term buy.
I might go "back" to the SL2 body if it will fit my expectations because the light user interface of Leica is more suited to my working style plus here and then I might want to use an M lens.
In regards of body size...I think with the Summicrons or M lenses the SL is prefered size, for the larger lenses (like the zooms or the 50/1.4) the S1(r) body size balances quite well.
Overall I think the S1(r) is really a very good body.
Overall it works quite well, the IQ I am satisfied. Noise can sometimes become obvious when bringing up shaddows, so exact exposure and trying to keep ISO 1600 and below. IBIS helps.
While I get along fine with UI I am still more used to the SL interface philosophy, with reduced numbers of buttons. The S1r has way more buttons than I need. The viewfinder I really like. C-AF, like the SL, is dissappointing IMO and has nothing to do with a professional camera.
At the moment I use the 16-35, and 50 and 75 SL-Summicrons. If I want lighter and a flexible kit I also use the 24-105 specially during vacations. The 24-105 does quite well, I still give the edge to the Leica lenses in regards of color rendering, 3-d look and sometimes the 24-105 can show a funky bokeh (only sometimes, I assume its a question of distance and f-stop).
The IQ specially with the Summicrons is very much to my taste, I even would say one step closer to medium format look. 2 downsides of those Leica lenses are price and weight. But I can live with the weight and price... I see it as a long term buy.
I might go "back" to the SL2 body if it will fit my expectations because the light user interface of Leica is more suited to my working style plus here and then I might want to use an M lens.
In regards of body size...I think with the Summicrons or M lenses the SL is prefered size, for the larger lenses (like the zooms or the 50/1.4) the S1(r) body size balances quite well.
Overall I think the S1(r) is really a very good body.
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Speedgraphic
Member
Received the S Pro 50/1.4. It's a remarkable piece of glass. The AF is much faster than I expected in certain modes, but like others have suggested it is just weird in C AF. Can't trust the zone AF as far as I can tell.
I do wish it had a little extra mojo like 1.2, or was a 55 or 58.
I get why they're releasing zooms, but man it hurts to have no compact primes. Might just have to suck it up and get the Sigma 35/1.2 and deal with the size.
I do wish it had a little extra mojo like 1.2, or was a 55 or 58.
I get why they're releasing zooms, but man it hurts to have no compact primes. Might just have to suck it up and get the Sigma 35/1.2 and deal with the size.
iiiNelson
Active member
As many know... or may be aware of due to my posts, I've had some interest in the S1R (and the Lumix S system in general) due to Sony not releasing a larger body option for those with larger hands when using the larger lenses. I jumped on the nearly 50% Black Friday deal that B&H was having on S1R kit Open Box/Demo units last week and my unit arrived a day early a few hours ago. The battery is charging fully now but while it still had juice I took the time to update firmware of the body and lens before leaving it on to allow the battery to nearly completely drain. The camera battery had ~70% charge on arrival but setting up the camera (firmware updates to body and lens) plus setting up custom buttons got me down to about 60%. checking near and far focus on objects in the house gave me a bit of non-definitive insight on the focusing speed. So far so good but I'll be working on my thoughts over time. I'm also going to pick up a Sony/Minolta A-mount adapter for the 135/1.8 that I never sold and perhaps a M-mount to L-mount adapter for my CV 35/1.2 to hold me over until I can buy a 35 APO-Summicron... unless Panasonic introduces something more interesting. In reality though I will probably buy primes nearly exclusively for this camera and perhaps sell most of my Sony primes and stick to the very good Tamron zooms on that system. HEre's a few size comparisons to the G1 and A7RII (as I keep it configured) for size and weight... the weight difference really isn't as large as some reviews will make it out to be if one keeps a grip on their Sony camera. There's an even smaller difference if you're using Generation 3 or 4 bodies.
It’s a family affair...
s1r_g1 by Tre Nelson, on Flickr
Not a 100% fair comparison because of lens choices but this is how I normally configure my Sony cameras... not a lot of difference in size or weight as you’ll see in the next couple of shots.
s1r_a7rii by Tre Nelson, on Flickr
2.147 pounds with battery or 974 grams for those metric people
a7rii by Tre Nelson, on Flickr
2.328 pounds with battery, Arca compatible plate and Peak Design anchors... or 1056 grams for the metric people. Sony is also configured for the same setup though that plate is slightly lighter. In essence the difference is negligible to me.
s1r by Tre Nelson, on Flickr
It’s a family affair...
s1r_g1 by Tre Nelson, on FlickrNot a 100% fair comparison because of lens choices but this is how I normally configure my Sony cameras... not a lot of difference in size or weight as you’ll see in the next couple of shots.
s1r_a7rii by Tre Nelson, on Flickr2.147 pounds with battery or 974 grams for those metric people
a7rii by Tre Nelson, on Flickr2.328 pounds with battery, Arca compatible plate and Peak Design anchors... or 1056 grams for the metric people. Sony is also configured for the same setup though that plate is slightly lighter. In essence the difference is negligible to me.
s1r by Tre Nelson, on FlickrHa, GREAT!! I'd just logged in upon seeing a B&H "refurbished" offer to alert you to! Indeed, the B&H offers at 50% (the refurb deal a tad better !) have that laxative effect.
(A fine example of good "luck" coming to one who had done so much research as to be ready to jump!)
(-;
iiiNelson
Active member
The refurb deal is the exact same except you get a refurb instead of an open box/demo unit. I have to pay tax on certain online electronics in my state which brought the total up to ~$2400 or so.Ha, GREAT!! I'd just logged in upon seeing a B&H "refurbished" offer to alert you to! Indeed, the B&H offers at 50% (the refurb deal a tad better !) have that laxative effect.
(A fine example of good "luck" coming to one who had done so much research as to be ready to jump!)
(-;
Thanks for the heads up though.
I happened to be up at 4am Thanksgiving morning to do a little food prep. I was getting ready to pull the trigger on that G9 deal when “something” told me to search and see if there was a Black Friday LUMIX S deal... I saw the body only price of ~$1800 then I humored myself and added the kit lens... I couldn’t believe it and quickly added to cart in case it was one of those computer error deals. Got a shipment confirmed notice a few hours later and signed up for tracking updates. I knew the package was moving because I got label printed and moved to FedEx facility notices later that night... apparently the people in the warehouse were working on Thanksgiving. In any case I’m very happy with the deal. Everything came as new, still sealed in original plastic, and I received an email to have the warranty extended to 3 years total upon registration. Can’t beat that price for the camera kit... I mean essentially it’s $1400 for the camera plus the usual $900 for the lens.
I’m really anxious to take the camera through my paces and see how it goes over time. I’ll do some write-ups as I go. This will be my primary personal camera from here on out... there’s so much to like about it in the first few hours of owning it but there’s a lot to learn as well... particularly their naming conventions and where things are in the menu... that’ll all come in time with use though. I also ordered the Novoflex adapter for the Sony Zeiss 135/1.8 in A-Mount... it’s roughly the same size as the kit lens.