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Getting tired of Diglloyd

barjohn

New member
I can't comment on the S series AF as I have never owned one; however, I can comment on Leica's AF attempts in other cameras, notably the XV, T and Q having owned or owning all of them at one time or another. I found the XV and the T to suffer from two AF issues, slow speed and sufficiently frequent AF error to rate those as unacceptable. By AF error, I mean that the camera indicated it had focus lock but the resulting image was out of focus. Because I often shoot with review turned off and do not chimp at the time I am shooting, it was irritating and disappointing to later discovered the image was lost due to mis-focus. The Q is the first Leica with AF that I have owned that gets AF right. It is fast in virtually most conditions including pretty low light and it rarely misses. It's AF matches or exceeds the very fast and accurate AF of the M43 cameras such as the Olympus OM-D EM-5II or other equivalent Panasonic models. The prior implementations were too slow for moving subjects and prone to a strange bug where the camera would indicate focus but nothing was in focus. A dive into the EXIF data would show the camera selected a far distance focus or an extreme closeup distance to place the AF and there was nothing in either area that was high contrast to fool the AF system.
 

Amin

Active member
I think it's just his schtick. Some do the overexuberant, love almost everything schtick. Others do the grouchy thing. Not too many reviewers take the middle road, probably because it tends to make for less interesting reading.

I've been struggling with some of this myself as I post tests and reviews here and there on the web. If anything, I have trouble communicating my exuberance even when I am really psyched about a lens.

Just thinking out loud, here. For whatever reason, Lloyd's "anti-Leica" moments have never bothered me.
 

Leigh

New member
For instance, there is a huge difference between a purely mechanical, rather simple device as a film rangefinder camera and the digital rangefinders of today. It's perfectly possible to design and execute a brilliant film camera that will function perfectly out of the box. That is relatively easy to accomplish. OTOH, the digital cameras are far more complex and delicate mechanically and contain very complex electronic parts and very complicated programs to make the images.
I wrote all of the guidance and control software for the three-stage Pegasus rocket.
Somewhat more complex than a camera.

That s/w functioned perfectly from day 1, with not even one malfunction in many launches over its entire ten year life.

It can be done. It's not any more difficult that writing junk-ware.

The problem is that modern engineers aren't taught how to do it in the first place.
They're told to get something out the door as quickly as possible, and we'll fix it later.

- Leigh
 

baudolino

Active member
I've been shooting in a workshop with a famous European photographer for the past few days, using my S2 alongside my M. And yes, I have missed a few shots because of the slow buffer on the S2 and a few because of not refocusing quickly enough....but....when I open the S2 files on the screen I say to the S2 "I still love you....". Mr. Digilloyd may be "right" on some counts but it hasn't prevented me from taking nice pictures.
 

barjohn

New member
Leigh's comment reminded me of the testing we used to do for space born computers/software back in the 70's and 80's. If it failed a single test it was discarded. The concept was simple. We could not repair it if it failed; so it had to have a high reliability assurance. Granted, it costs more to develop to extremely high standards but would you like the Leica approach if it controlled the trigger mechanism for a nuclear weapon? :thumb down:

I would agree that Lloyd is a bit of an egomaniac and is he ever difficult to correspond with if you disagree with him, but his testing and his resulting examples do show that he knows what he is talking about much of the time. The problem is when he is wrong he never quite fully acknowledges it. Maybe not much different than most of us, come to think about it. He just has a bigger megaphone.
 

silver92b

New member
Leigh's comment reminded me of the testing we used to do for space born computers/software back in the 70's and 80's. If it failed a single test it was discarded. The concept was simple. We could not repair it if it failed; so it had to have a high reliability assurance. Granted, it costs more to develop to extremely high standards but would you like the Leica approach if it controlled the trigger mechanism for a nuclear weapon? :thumb down:

I would agree that Lloyd is a bit of an egomaniac and is he ever difficult to correspond with if you disagree with him, but his testing and his resulting examples do show that he knows what he is talking about much of the time. The problem is when he is wrong he never quite fully acknowledges it. Maybe not much different than most of us, come to think about it. He just has a bigger megaphone.
You and Leigh are the exception rather than the rule. I've had been a mechanical design engineer for many years and worked decades along programmers before I retired. Those guys were not stupid, lazy or incompetent, but the truth is that all the programming needed constant and continuous upgrading and debugging. I won't go into details, but we worked on machines and systems for all sorts of material handling. All custom made practically one-off. I worked in several different companies doing a variety of work. Back in the dawn of time, I even worked for a company that made ejection seats (as an illustrator, tech writer). I can promise you that with the best efforts of hard working people and a great deal at stake, malfunctions still happened.... I think that consumer product manufacturers are under great pressure to get things done too fast. There is never enough time to do it right but plenty of time to do it 2 or 3 times :thumb down: It's not only cameras that suffer from these issues, but every consumer item including cars, appliances, etc.
 

aDam007

New member
I wrote something longer and then erased it.

Bottom line, Leica needs to clean up their acts. Lloyd needs to manage his expectations :D


Though I will add I understand his frustration. I think the more you appreciate Leica's quality, the more you want them to do better! And the more frustrated you get when they fail you.


My first S006 was a glitchy camera, a HUGE hassle and a lot of fighting to get it replaced (was then replaced by a used beat up camera) and it took a lot more fighting to get that one replaced with a new one *(as per my warranty platinum swap). At the same time, lens was DOA, brand new from factory. Replacing it was also a hassle. And I had to fight with Leica and the dealer network over shipping and etc.
Still love the S-006, and wish it was a better camera as I enjoy using it.. But I'm willing to learn how to manoeuvre it's shortcomings so I can use it and enjoy it. Rather then bitching about it, and giving up on it. All in all, I feel my frustrations with the system were worth it in the end, because I enjoy the S-006 now, and look forward to seeing what the S-007 can deliver!
 

Leigh

New member
There is never enough time to do it right but plenty of time to do it 2 or 3 times :thumb down:
And therein lies the fallacy that so many companies follow.
Doing it right in the first place takes less time than doing a half-a$$ job.

A good 50% or more of most software projects is taken up by testing and debugging.
If you don't put bugs in initially, you don't have to waste that time finding and correcting them.

It's entirely mindset. Those who understand that are the super-heros.

It's not only cameras that suffer from these issues, but every consumer item including cars, appliances, etc.
That is unfortunately true, when it doesn't need to be.

- Leigh
 
My overall point was, Digilloyd has a tiny audience because you have to pay to read his rambling tests. The same person who has the money and is seriously considering an S purchase is NOT going to be basing that decision on Digilloyds problems with the camera. If you like your camera, who cares what Digilloyd says about it? Thank you lucky stars you got to enjoy it. The guy who runs Leica Rumors thinks that Leica might abandon the 007 completely. They SAY it's set for a fall release, but that's a year late. I don't think they're going to add users with this model, especially at their "Non-Lion-Shooting Dentist only" price structure. That would be a great ad BTW. A picture of a great Leica S with a telephoto and text that says "This is How You Shoot a Lion." ;)

I do like that he tells it like it is with Leica though. Details matter in a product this expensive. I won't go as far as Leigh by saying that no product should ever have problems, because if you've ever spent a single day in the Universe we all share, you'll understand that sh*t happens. I don't fault them for that too hard. But some issues are built in! Why did the monochrom have that terrible screen? I know it's not hip to say this but that ruined the product for me. I want to check focus quickly an accurately, and since the camera was 8 grand, I want to know my 8 grand went to top tier components. I'm sorry but during the M9 and Original MM years, those cameras were built from off the shelf, aging and cheap components, and then sold at a premium. The screen was the same as the one in the Nikon D80 and the sensor was the same one that Kodak had been producing for years already. Tech gets cheaper over time. They're still selling that stuff with the M-E! The 240, MM2, and Q are signs of good things to come. But don't get all upset that somebody is calling Leica out. They deserved it.

If the S continues they'll have to lower the price IMO. Pro's can afford it but why would they bother? No loaner bodies for failures and nice as they are, the offerings from Phase, Hassy, and Pentax cover the market with bigger sensors, better support, and lenses that nobody is seriously complaining about. The Leica S COULD be THE high end wedding photographer camera. I see it as nearly perfect for that application. But as a wedding photographer I would never invest that much money into something that is essentially a big question mark for reliability, and a big hurdle for any service that might come up.
 

uhoh7

New member
And therein lies the fallacy that so many companies follow.
Doing it right in the first place takes less time than doing a half-a$$ job.

A good 50% or more of most software projects is taken up by testing and debugging.
If you don't put bugs in initially, you don't have to waste that time finding and correcting them.

It's entirely mindset. Those who understand that are the super-heros.


That is unfortunately true, when it doesn't need to be.

- Leigh
When you watch Sony's lurching into the future, with the great aspects constantly hamstrung by silly caveats, like the cover glass, RAWs, general fragile build, bloating bodies, Leica does not look so bad LOL

I think the Q can be seen as a direct Sony spanking. "This is what a whole camera looks like, boys"
 
If the S continues they'll have to lower the price IMO. Pro's can afford it but why would they bother? No loaner bodies for failures and nice as they are, the offerings from Phase, Hassy, and Pentax cover the market with bigger sensors, better support, and lenses that nobody is seriously complaining about. The Leica S COULD be THE high end wedding photographer camera. I see it as nearly perfect for that application. But as a wedding photographer I would never invest that much money into something that is essentially a big question mark for reliability, and a big hurdle for any service that might come up.
I am curious where you get this about no loaner bodies, poor support and lenses that people complain about? My experience has been the complete opposite. I have had one major issue with an S camera, and it was my first S2. The AF was not properly calibrated out of the box. The camera was replaced. Since then, I have bought an S camera and a few lenses. I have had a few minor issues, but all have been resolved very easily and professionally. I have been offered a loaner camera for when the camera needed maintenance, and support direct from Leica has been phenomenal...I know the names of contacts at the factory and they remember me. I have not had that from any other manufacturer. In fact, it is nearly the exact opposite experience I have had with a certain other high end brand, which treated my problems from a place of skepticism, while racking up fees and then failing to solve issues. Leica has always listened and done their best to solve any issue and even waived fees and paid for shipping even outside of warranty if they felt the problem was from their end.

I think the apparent higher propensity for issues with the Leica cameras has several main causes -- 1. They are lower volume products from a much smaller company than the other major companies, and since they have fewer people working on them, there is less man-power to address every conceivable problem. 2. Leica tends to push the limits of manufacturing tolerance in the lenses and bodies much higher than most manufacturers, so it is much more difficult to get everything to work together as perfectly. Since the lens performance is so high, it is easy to see any issues that might not be visible with lesser lenses. 3. Since they are so much more expensive than most, people hold them to a very high standard and complain loudly about any issue.

As for Digilloyd, I have never bought his reviews, as it never seemed to make sense to me. His statements do sound shrill, and at least from my end I think that his problems are either from a particular issue with the camera or lens he tried or one of user error. I have used the S and S2 for several years now, and they are by far the most accurate AF cameras I have used, even if they are not very fast in focusing. I believe the AF system is a bit more complicated than it first appears, however, so it can benefit from tweaking a bit in particular scenarios. For example, I believe the AF system takes into account DOF in its calculations for optimum focus of wide angle lenses. For example, if I am using the 35mm or 45mm lenses to focus in a landscape composition with a field extending out before me with mountains in the distance, it tends to put the focus point such that infinity is within the hyperfocal distance of the lens at maximum aperture, rather than at true infinity. This maximizes sharpness over the entire picture, but sacrifices the absolute sharpness a bit at infinity. If you want the camera to truly prioritize infinity, it is better to make sure you are focusing only on something at infinity, rather than on something that extends from infinity to a closer distance. I am not sure if that is clear (or even right!), but it is something that seems to happen in my workflow. I can easily correct for it if I have to, but generally it leads to better results than setting the true infinity focus.
 

rsmphoto

Member
If the S continues they'll have to lower the price IMO. Pro's can afford it but why would they bother? No loaner bodies for failures and nice as they are, the offerings from Phase, Hassy, and Pentax cover the market with bigger sensors, better support, and lenses that nobody is seriously complaining about. The Leica S COULD be THE high end wedding photographer camera. I see it as nearly perfect for that application. But as a wedding photographer I would never invest that much money into something that is essentially a big question mark for reliability, and a big hurdle for any service that might come up.
Really? Is this from personal experience or just more anecdotal inference?

I for one have used both Hasselblad (9 years) and Leica S (3+ years). My experience with Leica has been far better than with the Hasselblads. Exceptionally fast pro service to and from Germany for a zoom lens repair, near immediate dealer support whenever requested. As for the camera itself, rock solid tethered performance when compared with Hasselblad, which suffered frequent component and FW800 connection issues throughout multiple model upgrades. I won't go into lens quality since you should be well aware of that.
 

JoelM

Active member
But as far as photo stuff, if said reviewer is not a world class talent actual working pro, read, not Mr. Reid, Dowling, Thein, Diglloyd, etc…then I am simply not interested in what they have to say, at all.
Why would it matter if someone weren't a pro? If anyone can make a good argument backed by good technique and science, then who cares. I've seen and known too many pros that either weren't very gear saavy or simply were successful due to factors other than creativity. Also, a "world class talent actual working pro" probably doesn't have time to review and detail all the ins and outs of his tools.

Someone who is not interested in hearing others because of their status is taking an ignorant stance and not open to possibly new views.

Joel
 

uhoh7

New member
I think we get used to hearing it all for free LOL

Then somebody wants to charge and it's OMG, how outrageous!

But really it's their right to sell their knowledge and our right not to buy it. I see no reason for resentment.

Both Sean and Lloyd put alot of work into their tests, and both even tested the Kolari mod. So I think they have a claim to value all that work. I can see why some guys subscribe. I'm too cheap, but not too proud to admit it LOL
 

kimyeesan

Member
I have owned the S006 twice with almost all the lens, except maybe the 45mm and 180mm
first time S was a very good experience in 2014. I have 30mm 70mm 120mm and a 30-90mm The system works very well and is one of the best ergonomics MF I have ever used. But somehow, I was introduced to Digital backs and Alpa, and I have decided to part with the S to fund my purchase into digital back.
A year later, I have decided to jump back to the S camp since prices now are pretty decent for the body. This is where my view on Leica quality changed significantly. It is pretty poor to be honest.

My bad experience is mainly on the body. I purchased a new body around April this year, it arrived with a huge dead pixel brand new. I called Leica up and they arrange for me to replace a new one from the store I bought it from. During the process, they asked for the serial no. card, and to my horror, the card in the box is not the same in serial with the body, and you can tell it is a mistake as only 1 no. in the middle of the serial is wrong. Leica told me no matter, as this happen a lot (what the hell??) So, I have waited 1 and a half months for my replacement body and upon turning it on, there's another dead pixel on the screen... but it's not visible on the LR through mapping. So I have decided to keep it. On this second order, I have also ordered the Contax adaptor, which came with the well-known 'not recognized lens upon turning on' issue. I have to unmount the adaptor and remount again everytime and prevent it from going into sleep mode. I have just confirm today with a friend who had this issue with the adaptor and he sent it back to Leica for replacement (which work fine now). I guess I have to do the same.

I have 4 S lens this second time around (24 35 70 100) and hope that they might hold up a little better in terms of usage since most lens AF motor failed according to user on forums. The 35mm has a slow reacting aperture, every time I mount it, the first 2~3 shots, aperture will not close down properly and I need to press the DoF preview button a few times to get it going.

Of the 7 items that I have for S, 3 of them has issues from day one... This is a pretty poor rate, and a first for any brand that I have own, though I did have to send my Leaf Credo 80 back to Denmark to have it clean as a piece of dust got under the filter cover (don't know how it get there!).

All I am saying is this, all these problem shouldn't have happened in the first place, they charge premium amount for product that has high fail rate (it's high fail rate, not absolute no., but a rate), and all these customer service, nice as they were, are just them doing their job to keep their customer from walking out on the brand. It's the least they could do, really.
 

Lictor

New member
I would even argue that most of the really creative folk in photography are usually not gear savvy at all, just mastering their equipment to the level that enables them to create what they want, and the people most knowledgeable about equipment very often lack any kind of creativity aiming for perfection without substance. However, it's always good to hear information from both camps IMHO.

Cheers,

Dan

Why would it matter if someone weren't a pro? If anyone can make a good argument backed by good technique and science, then who cares. I've seen and known too many pros that either weren't very gear saavy or simply were successful due to factors other than creativity. Also, a "world class talent actual working pro" probably doesn't have time to review and detail all the ins and outs of his tools.

Someone who is not interested in hearing others because of their status is taking an ignorant stance and not open to possibly new views.

Joel
 

erlingmm

Active member
I am not as subscriber, so I can't read digilloyd's evaluation after the initial cry wolf about the S AF. But he is now into evaluation of the S lenses. Abot the 24mm he says:

"This is a truly outstanding performance probably unequalled by any lens for the 35mm format. To see it on medium format 45 X 30mm sensor is very impressive. The particularly high cost of the Leica 24mm f/3.5 Super-Elmar-S ASPH is neatly explained by this example. But cost should not be confused with value—this is as good as it gets for a lens this wide (19mm equiv in the 35mm format) and thus the 24/3.5 SEM is surely a must-have lens for the S shooter."

I can only agree.

About the 45 (that I don't have) he says:

"I liked the Leica 45mm f/2.8 Elmarit-S ASPH a lot and found it very appealing in the field. Highly recommended for Leica S shooters."

About the sensor itself he says:

"The CCD sensor on the S006 is superb."

The S007 is now rumored to be released Aug 31. I know the first samples are out for testing, looking forward to the first reviews.
 

peterv

New member
I can confirm wholeheartedly about the 24mm. It might just as well have been glued to my S2-P these past few weeks. Can't get enough of it.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I have owned the S006 twice with almost all the lens, except maybe the 45mm and 180mm
first time S was a very good experience in 2014. I have 30mm 70mm 120mm and a 30-90mm The system works very well and is one of the best ergonomics MF I have ever used. But somehow, I was introduced to Digital backs and Alpa, and I have decided to part with the S to fund my purchase into digital back.
A year later, I have decided to jump back to the S camp since prices now are pretty decent for the body. This is where my view on Leica quality changed significantly. It is pretty poor to be honest.

My bad experience is mainly on the body. I purchased a new body around April this year, it arrived with a huge dead pixel brand new. I called Leica up and they arrange for me to replace a new one from the store I bought it from. During the process, they asked for the serial no. card, and to my horror, the card in the box is not the same in serial with the body, and you can tell it is a mistake as only 1 no. in the middle of the serial is wrong. Leica told me no matter, as this happen a lot (what the hell??) So, I have waited 1 and a half months for my replacement body and upon turning it on, there's another dead pixel on the screen... but it's not visible on the LR through mapping. So I have decided to keep it. On this second order, I have also ordered the Contax adaptor, which came with the well-known 'not recognized lens upon turning on' issue. I have to unmount the adaptor and remount again everytime and prevent it from going into sleep mode. I have just confirm today with a friend who had this issue with the adaptor and he sent it back to Leica for replacement (which work fine now). I guess I have to do the same.

I have 4 S lens this second time around (24 35 70 100) and hope that they might hold up a little better in terms of usage since most lens AF motor failed according to user on forums. The 35mm has a slow reacting aperture, every time I mount it, the first 2~3 shots, aperture will not close down properly and I need to press the DoF preview button a few times to get it going.

Of the 7 items that I have for S, 3 of them has issues from day one... This is a pretty poor rate, and a first for any brand that I have own, though I did have to send my Leaf Credo 80 back to Denmark to have it clean as a piece of dust got under the filter cover (don't know how it get there!).

All I am saying is this, all these problem shouldn't have happened in the first place, they charge premium amount for product that has high fail rate (it's high fail rate, not absolute no., but a rate), and all these customer service, nice as they were, are just them doing their job to keep their customer from walking out on the brand. It's the least they could do, really.
Hi there,
I can understand your frustration.
It seems I am quite lucky,
my S 006 has not had any problem so far and out of 8 S-lenses I have not had any problems.
When I had a S2 before the S 006 it went to Leica service 2 or 3 times, however with very fast return and they solved the problems.
 
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