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Hasselblad 28 Sept 2021 "Beyond Classic"

Godfrey

Well-known member
... the reality is that most V series users are "legacy" users, in the sense of it's been on their shelf unused for years ...
I don't know what a legacy user is. I'm a photographer. I bought Hasselblad V system gear when I could afford to, and I use it. I bought the 907x/CVFII 50c when it was announced because it extends the usefulness of my V system gear into the digital capture domain, and I bought four lenses because I found the X system lenses to be very compelling ... they don't compete with my V system lenses, they complement them.

I don't understand your negative attitude.

G
 

elm

Member
Just as a Note, "8" is a lucky number in the Asian culture and as such, on reason for the celebration of the "80th" Anniversary! (Especially when the parent company of Hasselblad is a Chinese company.)
 

sog1927

Member
I expect it would cost a huge fortune to revive the 500 SLR body manufacturing line, never mind even a minimal amount of lens production, and the market for a new 500 series body at the new price that would be needed to make it profitable is probably infinitesimal to non-existent, given the number of excellent-condition 500 series bodies available on the used market for virtually nothing.

(My black 1978 vintage 500CM body, with WLF, winder knob, Acute Matte screen, and front/back caps, cost me the grand total of $460 in 2020... and is in absolutely perfect condition. There were a dozen to choose from in similar condition when I bought this one. I can't imagine making a profit on a newly manufactured same thing today at a price point less than three times that.)

G
I dunno, Godfrey. If they came out with a 500 series body with in-body metering and focus confirmation I'd probably buy it to keep the 500 C/M and the 503CW company ;)
 

sog1927

Member
I know Hasselblad want to pull users into the X system but the reality is that most V series users are "legacy" users, in the sense of it's been on their shelf unused for years or they're a second/third/fourth/fifth hand owner of a system. Does anyone think they're interested in dropping several thousand on some lenses? Pffft, no chance.
Gee, I'm a "legacy" V-series owner (been using them for over 30 years). I bought an X1D as an experiment - I wanted to see if it would be a lightweight travel alternative to the V cameras. I ended up buying four lenses for it (and am in the market for more), so I guess the strategy worked for me.
 

darr

Well-known member
I guess I am a hybrid "legacy user" if the V system is defined as an old method or technology, and/or a camera system that paved the way for others that would follow its standards. But, once I found how I could adapt V lenses and V camera accessories to ALPA cameras, I became primarily an ALPA camera + Hasselblad V system components user. I have a long history with the V system and made a lot of income with the 500 camera system, but my 501/503 bodies are only used for film shooting these days.

I choose the ALPA cameras because they are simple and adaptable. No need for mirrors and the only meters I use are separate from camera bodies, but I have been at this game for so long, I hardly ever require a meter, (especially with the availability of a digital back's histogram), except if I want to use the Zone System for a specific b&w film shoot and development.

The reason I continue to shoot V lenses after shooting most Schneider and Rodenstock lenses (I have five ALPA-Schneider lenses) in similar FoV is their personality/look. Dragging the shutter in film days was part of my technique for on location shoots so leaf shutter lenses were a necessity, and I prefer to have that technique available if needed. So I guess I am a legacy user, but one that has been digging back into what I know works for what I am looking for, and that means bringing two systems together that work flawlessly for my needs.

I bought the original CFV50c in 2014 and now shooting the 907x CFV50c. I bought the 45P lens to try out the 907x, but I only shot with it once because I prefer using my ALPA-Hasselblad setup, and like Steve Hendrix stated, many of us use the 907x's digital back and today mine is on my Linhof 4x5 in the studio! So I really think there are more "hybrid legacy users" than some photographers know.
 

leejo

Member
I don't know what a legacy user is.
Eh, don't be silly - you know exactly what I mean. 80% (hand waving) of the Hasselblad cameras available and in use and today are discontinued models, legacy users. Then Hasselblad come out with equipment to modernise those models and even promoted the equipment as such. But then decided - nah, we're going to sell it in a way that alienates most of those users. Seems like a strange decision. Check the history of various other forums beyond this one (which has massive selection bias in terms of what people want, use, and can afford). Check Hasselblad's Instagram. There are pleny of users asking for a standalone back priced closer to what Fuji is selling the GFX 50R for.

I'm a photographer. I bought Hasselblad V system gear when I could afford to, and I use it. I bought the 907x/CVFII 50c when it was announced because it extends the usefulness of my V system gear into the digital capture domain, and I bought four lenses because I found the X system lenses to be very compelling ... they don't compete with my V system lenses, they complement them.
I'm a photographer too. One who has been shooting with Hasselblad cameras for almost two decades, travelled the world with them, has put thousands of rolls of film through the cameras, and sent them multiple times to Sweden to have them serviced at significant cost. I *want* to see Hasselblad succeed.

I don't understand your negative attitude.
I don't understand Hasselblad's direction. I thought they were turning it around, but it's looking less like it with this release. Hasselblad should absolutely be doing more to capture their "legacy users" and those who are thinking about MF digital. They even set aside a "heritage" section in their Masters competition this year and continue to release marketing that promotes that. But then announce models like this. It's a bit odd.
 

PSS

Active member
Eh, don't be silly - you know exactly what I mean. 80% (hand waving) of the Hasselblad cameras available and in use and today are discontinued models, legacy users. Then Hasselblad come out with equipment to modernise those models and even promoted the equipment as such. But then decided - nah, we're going to sell it in a way that alienates most of those users. Seems like a strange decision. Check the history of various other forums beyond this one (which has massive selection bias in terms of what people want, use, and can afford). Check Hasselblad's Instagram. There are pleny of users asking for a standalone back priced closer to what Fuji is selling the GFX 50R for.



I'm a photographer too. One who has been shooting with Hasselblad cameras for almost two decades, travelled the world with them, has put thousands of rolls of film through the cameras, and sent them multiple times to Sweden to have them serviced at significant cost. I *want* to see Hasselblad succeed.



I don't understand Hasselblad's direction. I thought they were turning it around, but it's looking less like it with this release. Hasselblad should absolutely be doing more to capture their "legacy users" and those who are thinking about MF digital. They even set aside a "heritage" section in their Masters competition this year and continue to release marketing that promotes that. But then announce models like this. It's a bit odd.
if you have been shooting hasselblad for 2 decades that pretty much describes the H system? It seems like the hasselblad users (at least the ones I have talked to) that complain most are H system users who at this point feel somewhat betrayed and or deserted?
to me the V system is hasselblad. I started shooting in the 90s and there were options in the MF world and hasselblad was the go to system. I happen to prefer fuji back then, never owned a V system but shot plenty. when the H system came out I was excited, pretty much a fuji system (fuji even came out with a black body) with all fuji lenses, but I never liked the camera, shot with it plenty of times, never liked it.
so after shooting for 30 years, the X system is my first hasselblad system. V prices are through the roof, so I haven't jumped on one for my 907 kit but it would be just for fun anyway.
I guess to me legacy users are V system users, I never really considered H in that way. even when I shot H, I always shot with a phase back, and the H files did not want me to put up with H system exclusively.
I am wondering what people expect for the H system? new lenses? a new body? IMO even updates can't really change the system that much. Its like asking for updates for the X to make AF faster or video better, it can't be done, its pointless. I know that my X1DII and 907 will do what they are doing, there might be some updates at some point but they won't change the experience.
I guess the teaser for the announcement go me as excited as everybody else, but realistically, there was no way they would come out with something earth shatteringly new and fresh. these systems are based on what sensors can do and we know what sensors are available. fuji just made a new announcement with the same old sensor we all love. lower price to sell more lenses, great for them. hasselblad can't go that way, we know that.
they can go the legacy/heritage/collectors way and why not? some old V systems sell for a lot more then this new limited kit. and the 907 30mm combo is awesome. I own it, it rocks. there is no way I would pay the premium but if it helps hasselblad I am all for it.
DJI is making awesome drones, gimbals,...I don't see much of the tech really converging but again: what direction are we talking about? solid sales, solid system, solid software updates. that is what I am looking for. I don't need bird eye AF and IBIS in this system. and I understand that at some point the H has to be cut off (that point already happened) but if you need the 400 mix file for reproduction, I don't see why you would not get the existing H system that provides it. what is missing from it?
 

budfox

Member
Without engaging with the 'legacy' / user base argument, I don't think the release of another special edition is that much of a big deal. It's probably cheap enough to make, and if they all sell (taking a leaf out of Leica's book - eg the James Bond Q2 was sold out after about 2 days) it's a no-brainer from the accounting department's perspective. And it gets them a bit of free publicity (a story on DPReview, 5 pages of discussion on getdpi.com).

I don't think it says anything about Hasselblad's long term commitment to any of its camera systems - legacy or new. You have to wait and see what they do next with the XD series, H series, and CFV series to make a proper judgment on that issue.
 

leejo

Member
if you have been shooting hasselblad for 2 decades that pretty much describes the H system?
V series: 203FE, 202FA, and xpan. Prior to that I had a 201f, which was bought new ("old stock", so it had to go straight to Hasselblad for a checkup) and various other backup bodies. I never shot the H as I prefer(ed) the square, but it's a good point in that the H series owners also feel left out - what's the cost now of the cheapest back for the H system, bought new? 5 times that of the CFV II? (I know it's not an apples to apples comparison and that the H sensor is significantly larger and higher resolution, but still: options are key).

hasselblad can't go that way, we know that.
they can go the legacy/heritage/collectors way and why not? some old V systems sell for a lot more then this new limited kit
Yeah they "sell" in that they sit on shelves or online stores with high price tags for people to lust over, while Fuji are pulling in newcomers to MF digital left right and centre. Hasselblad have nothing like the investor/collector niche Leica do, so I don't know why they're pursuing this (*800* units? OK, *80* I could perhaps understand, but *800*?).
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Eh, don't be silly - you know exactly what I mean. 80% (hand waving) of the Hasselblad cameras available and in use and today are discontinued models, legacy users. Then Hasselblad come out with equipment to modernise those models and even promoted the equipment as such. But then decided - nah, we're going to sell it in a way that alienates most of those users. Seems like a strange decision. Check the history of various other forums beyond this one (which has massive selection bias in terms of what people want, use, and can afford). Check Hasselblad's Instagram. There are pleny of users asking for a standalone back priced closer to what Fuji is selling the GFX 50R for.
...
I'm a photographer too. One who has been shooting with Hasselblad cameras for almost two decades, travelled the world with them, has put thousands of rolls of film through the cameras, and sent them multiple times to Sweden to have them serviced at significant cost. I *want* to see Hasselblad succeed.
...
I don't understand Hasselblad's direction. I thought they were turning it around, but it's looking less like it with this release. Hasselblad should absolutely be doing more to capture their "legacy users" and those who are thinking about MF digital. They even set aside a "heritage" section in their Masters competition this year and continue to release marketing that promotes that. But then announce models like this. It's a bit odd.
We won't agree, no point in wasting my time.

Although V system is discontinued, I don't see it as "legacy". I couldn't care less what Fuji is making ... I don't own one, likely never will since I have Hasselblad gear that I'm happy with and that does the job I want to do.

I could never afford the Hasselblad H system gear, didn't even bother to look at it once I saw the prices.

I use V system gear, since the 1980s. I use the 907x and X series lenses now too. I enjoy using all of them.
Hasselblad is doing just right for me. I'll add an X1DII body to my kit some day too.

G
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I don't, at least not in the context of cameras and their use. I buy cameras that I want to use. New or old is irrelevant; reliability, supported by service and parts, et al is what matters. The use of the term legacy to highlight and lend importance to a camera system that is no longer in production .. I don't know what the purpose for doing that is.

What does it matter if a camera that does what you want is "legacy" ... which I take it you mean is "obsoleted by newer cameras"? It's a ridiculous thing to waste your time thinking about. But I guess I have nothing better to do for the next ten minutes... LOL!

Here's the dictionary definition of the word legacy:

legacy

noun, plural leg·a·cies.
  • Law. a gift of property, especially personal property, as money, by will; a bequest.
  • anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor: the legacy of ancient Rome.
  • an applicant to or student at a school that was attended by his or her parent.
  • the office, function, or commission of a legate. (obsolete)

adjective
  • of or relating to old or outdated computer hardware, software, or data that, while still functional, does not work well with up-to-date systems.

synonyms
  • inheritance, estate, gift, tradition, bequest, birthright, devise, endowment, heirloom, throwback

From these we can say that a camera might be "the legacy inherited from my grandfather" or "the traditional type of camera made by a manufacturer in the past". This implies nothing about its usability or fitness for the purpose of making photographs, nor does it imply a judgement on the new things being made by a manufacturer.

So, IMO talking about the V system as "legacy Hasselblad equipment" is fine if you're saying that this was the tradition that Hasselblad built its reputation and name around. That'a nice, dignified way of honoring what they've brought to the market. Talking about V system as a legacy system implying that Hasselblad should invest time, money, and effort to promote and attract more users to its use doesn't make sense: they don't make the V system any more, there's no profit in it, and if they concentrated on that, they might as well close the doors and go home. The fact that they've given the V system a boost by producing a back that works so well with their older cameras is delightful; the fact that the acquisition of that back also brings the user access to the modern lens line and functionality, at minimal cost, is a big plus for them and for the users.

G
 

Abstraction

Active member
I think that in this context, the OP used "legacy" to mean a camera system that is no longer manufactured, no longer supported, with lenses and accessories no longer available new, etc. A camera system that has been supplanted by a newer, completely different system that bears no resemblance to the original "legacy" system.
 

docholliday

Well-known member
I'm one who doesn't consider the 500/200 series "legacy". To me, that's the 2000 and 1000 series.

I prefer to look at the V system as the manual focus system, H system as auto focus system, and X series as mirrorless. As far as I see it, a system isn't legacy unless it's unservicable and has no value other than to be a shelf queen. Adding a CFV back to a V system is still possible so it's a very functional camera. I shoot all H system gear and have a 203FE. I don't own, and won't own any of the mirrorless systems - they don't serve my needs and hinder my technique of working. Fuji GFX stuff is the same way to me and while it's great for travelers, hobbyists, and landscape shooters, it doesn't serve my needs at all and actually gets in the way. I tried one for a month and ended up putting it up each time to retrieve my H gear for the job.

I'll continue to use the H gear along side my Phase One and Canon 1DX gear until it becomes "legacy", no longer being serviceable by myself when I can't source parts to fix what breaks. I can always mill a gear, create a part, or repair a board to keep things going so it'll be a while before I'd "legacy out" my H gear. In theory, since backs have no moving parts, they should last a while. It'll be the mechanicals of the camera bodies that wear and break. And those are the easiest fixes.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Hopefully the next HB release gives us more to talk about than the semantics of the word "legacy"

Seems HB's release cycle is slower than I anticipated it be anyway. Not a bad thing, as for the money we spend on these things I'd like to see longer than 2-3 year product cycles., but I really wish they'd move forward with the latest Sony sensors. The 907x/CFVII platform itself is great and is unmatched in it's flexibility IMHO.
 

docholliday

Well-known member
If you have to mill your own parts, that sounds like pretty legacy to me.
It'd only be legacy if you can't do it. I've milled many a part for and replaced parts on brand new equipment. Mostly to improve flaws in the original creation or to solve problems by using better materials. I've changed greases in lenses to make the lens smoother and last longer. I've changed capacitors, diodes, and FETs on boards to improve longevity or handle dirty power better. I've also changed LEDs on many displays to improve visibility or reduce brightness to prevent night blindness. For example, the drive gear on many H lenses are weak and crack laterally when new. They're made of nylon and have weak points. The 100/2.2 is a good example of this. I've fixed them with UV glue, but I've also cut new gears for them out of better material and haven't had a single issue since.

Just because one makes the part doesn't make it legacy. Many times it's cheaper, easier, or more performant to do so. Legacy is when one can't make the part or when repairing the device doesn't make sense. If another OVF camera came about, I'd probably get it. But, not a Phase One bodies - they suck, don't agree with me ergonomically, and are clunky. Yet, if the choice was to not fix a body and buy new, I'd force myself to go P1 over Hasselblad X or Fuji GFX.
 

buildbot

Active member
It'd only be legacy if you can't do it. I've milled many a part for and replaced parts on brand new equipment. Mostly to improve flaws in the original creation or to solve problems by using better materials. I've changed greases in lenses to make the lens smoother and last longer. I've changed capacitors, diodes, and FETs on boards to improve longevity or handle dirty power better. I've also changed LEDs on many displays to improve visibility or reduce brightness to prevent night blindness. For example, the drive gear on many H lenses are weak and crack laterally when new. They're made of nylon and have weak points. The 100/2.2 is a good example of this. I've fixed them with UV glue, but I've also cut new gears for them out of better material and haven't had a single issue since.
That's very impressive, I aspire to do this in the future with some of my own gear.
Have you ever thought about selling your upgrades?
 

docholliday

Well-known member
That's very impressive, I aspire to do this in the future with some of my own gear.
Have you ever thought about selling your upgrades?
I get asked/told that all the time. But, I'm too busy (and at the same time, lazy) to sell the work. It's one thing to make a half dozen for myself but a totally different thing to meet orders and expectations. My whole day is already taken up between writing specialty software, designing/repairing hardware, heading IT for a dozen businesses, and then photographing ad campaigns in between.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I think that in this context, the OP used "legacy" to mean a camera system that is no longer manufactured, no longer supported, with lenses and accessories no longer available new, etc. A camera system that has been supplanted by a newer, completely different system that bears no resemblance to the original "legacy" system.
Well, obviously the 907x/CFVII 50c do not "bear no resemblance to the original legacy system" since the CFVII-50c mounts and operates perfectly with any Hasselblad 500 or 200 series body. In fact, this bundle is listed in the "V System" category on the Hasselblad website, so technically V system is still being manufactured and supported, and the 907x gives access to X system lenses too.

The whole argument about "legacy" is pretty specious and mostly just a lot of hot air. leejo (and others) just doesn't like what Hasselblad is making. Nothing wrong with that ... go buy a Fuji if you dislike Hasselblad's products so much and don't want to buy them. :rolleyes:

G
 
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