schuster
Active member
By the way, @marchaers, I just looked at your site, and your monochrome images have a beautiful "film" quality. You might be "channeling" Irving Penn.
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Hasselblad vs GFX system
- Thread starter marchaers
- Start date
marchaers
Member
Thank you so much I see that as a huge (!) compliment. I only first heard that specific comparison about 5 or 6 years ago from someone I admire but it's spot on. The moment I saw his style I knew why it was said. He's a legend of the highest order lol. Thanks
Jon Warwick
Member
marchaers, I just looked at your website too. Really really impressive. Out of curiosity, and noting your comments above - on your website's home page, are any of the images taken with film?
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MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
marchaers ,
FWIW, and it isn't worth much, as your own testing is all that matters, here are my totally biased opinions.
I have a good deal of experience with Hasselblad X1D, Fuji GFX 100, and Leica S cameras, and just a little with Phase One (older CCD sensors). It could be that I am simply a victim of price snobbery, but the only color I've been dissatisfied with is the Fuji. The other three manufacturers seem to be the only ones taking trouble to get colors right for photographers - especially for portraits. Fuji takes a "we'll give you many different styles and you can choose from our list" approach. If the size and weight weren't prohibitive, I'd have Phase One or the bigger Hasselblads. On a technical camera, that would certainly be my choice, but I am mostly a hand-held shooter. The ergonomics of the Leica S are much better for me, so that's what I have stayed with.
As for sensor size, as big as possible - full stop. My dream camera would be a Mamiya 7 digital. Sigh. I suspect it's actually the lenses designed for the larger sensors that make the difference, but it doesn't really matter.
Best,
Matt
FWIW, and it isn't worth much, as your own testing is all that matters, here are my totally biased opinions.
I have a good deal of experience with Hasselblad X1D, Fuji GFX 100, and Leica S cameras, and just a little with Phase One (older CCD sensors). It could be that I am simply a victim of price snobbery, but the only color I've been dissatisfied with is the Fuji. The other three manufacturers seem to be the only ones taking trouble to get colors right for photographers - especially for portraits. Fuji takes a "we'll give you many different styles and you can choose from our list" approach. If the size and weight weren't prohibitive, I'd have Phase One or the bigger Hasselblads. On a technical camera, that would certainly be my choice, but I am mostly a hand-held shooter. The ergonomics of the Leica S are much better for me, so that's what I have stayed with.
As for sensor size, as big as possible - full stop. My dream camera would be a Mamiya 7 digital. Sigh. I suspect it's actually the lenses designed for the larger sensors that make the difference, but it doesn't really matter.
Best,
Matt
marchaers
Member
@Jon Warwick Hey Jon! Thank you SO much for the compliments. There is exactly one photo shot on film (I recently removed some others) - it was shot with my large format camera, developed and digitised myself. If you start counting left to right - #23 (two people hugging).
@MGrayson Thanks so much for your opinion. I'll post a new reply with my findings below. I just got back from testing the H6D.
@MGrayson Thanks so much for your opinion. I'll post a new reply with my findings below. I just got back from testing the H6D.
marchaers
Member
Alright everyone so I'm back home with some test shots pocketed and an experience richer. Let me start:
The good:
It is a camera to fall in love with at first sight. Amazing feel, handling and it is true the files are amazing. If compared to the GFX you definitely see a recurring difference in the highlight roll-off on the skin tones. GFX is more contrasty and loses a bit of that smoothness where the transition is harshest. I can get the images to look alike with that roll-off being the main difference. There's more to work with on the H6D (which is to be expected).
The okay:
I'm not blown away by the difference between the 100S and 100C. They're both truly amazing cameras to work with and the files are both as impressive. It's about that last 5% of quality which will make the difference. I need to figure out whether that 5% is worth the risk and possible extra cost. Which I'll elaborate further below.
Tethered shooting worked well in Phocus & Lightroom (with the plugin) so no problems there.
The bad:
Now, sadly there were a couple of 'bads' in the short time I spent with the H6D. One was within the first five shots I saw the dreaded 'switch magazine' error. Which is (as I've read) possibly quite a big issue. A quick battery reset and it was fixed. Though it only showed once while testing and I'm aware of the fact that Medium Format comes with quirks like this. It is something that I'll take into consideration. It'll drastically change my views on the pricing though. Second one was a weird instance on import. I shot on a (fast) SD card I had with me and one moment the flash didn't trigger which gave me an underexposed image - which is fine. BUT, it had this crazy blue noise all-over the file. Almost like a sensor issue looking thing. Both Lightroom and Phocus showed it. Again, only showed once. But with the short time I spent with it it is something to talk about. Other thing is it has 151000 shots on the counter. Which in my eyes isn't necessarily an issue. But good to know nonetheless. He shot weddings with it so it doesn't really translate into many shoots, he's a trigger happy fellow that's for sure.
The conclusion (so far):
I like the camera, the way it feels and I LOVE the images it puts out. But the price he's asking is too high for the risk I'm willing to take. I can have a GFX100S + 63mm lens for about 7500 euros, his kit will set me back (including the 80mm 2.8) around 10.000 euros. I'm going to talk to him about the above issues, explain that it's either 7500 for a new GFX system (with warranty and good support) or this very risky second hand Hasselblad. I'm willing to take a risk for the sake of getting the best possible images, also to maintain the camera and treat it well. Though it should be a WAY less pricey risk. If I can negotiate the price down significantly then I'm willing to think about it. I've taken risks like this before and they paid off. He'll also get me in touch with his personal dealer that can help me out as well if there's any issues. As it stands right now - it's a no-go. I'll let you know after I've called him in a minute.
The good:
It is a camera to fall in love with at first sight. Amazing feel, handling and it is true the files are amazing. If compared to the GFX you definitely see a recurring difference in the highlight roll-off on the skin tones. GFX is more contrasty and loses a bit of that smoothness where the transition is harshest. I can get the images to look alike with that roll-off being the main difference. There's more to work with on the H6D (which is to be expected).
The okay:
I'm not blown away by the difference between the 100S and 100C. They're both truly amazing cameras to work with and the files are both as impressive. It's about that last 5% of quality which will make the difference. I need to figure out whether that 5% is worth the risk and possible extra cost. Which I'll elaborate further below.
Tethered shooting worked well in Phocus & Lightroom (with the plugin) so no problems there.
The bad:
Now, sadly there were a couple of 'bads' in the short time I spent with the H6D. One was within the first five shots I saw the dreaded 'switch magazine' error. Which is (as I've read) possibly quite a big issue. A quick battery reset and it was fixed. Though it only showed once while testing and I'm aware of the fact that Medium Format comes with quirks like this. It is something that I'll take into consideration. It'll drastically change my views on the pricing though. Second one was a weird instance on import. I shot on a (fast) SD card I had with me and one moment the flash didn't trigger which gave me an underexposed image - which is fine. BUT, it had this crazy blue noise all-over the file. Almost like a sensor issue looking thing. Both Lightroom and Phocus showed it. Again, only showed once. But with the short time I spent with it it is something to talk about. Other thing is it has 151000 shots on the counter. Which in my eyes isn't necessarily an issue. But good to know nonetheless. He shot weddings with it so it doesn't really translate into many shoots, he's a trigger happy fellow that's for sure.
The conclusion (so far):
I like the camera, the way it feels and I LOVE the images it puts out. But the price he's asking is too high for the risk I'm willing to take. I can have a GFX100S + 63mm lens for about 7500 euros, his kit will set me back (including the 80mm 2.8) around 10.000 euros. I'm going to talk to him about the above issues, explain that it's either 7500 for a new GFX system (with warranty and good support) or this very risky second hand Hasselblad. I'm willing to take a risk for the sake of getting the best possible images, also to maintain the camera and treat it well. Though it should be a WAY less pricey risk. If I can negotiate the price down significantly then I'm willing to think about it. I've taken risks like this before and they paid off. He'll also get me in touch with his personal dealer that can help me out as well if there's any issues. As it stands right now - it's a no-go. I'll let you know after I've called him in a minute.
marchaers
Member
Update (after phonecall)
He's going to send his Camera in for a full check (with that one weird photo I took as reference) and the error. He'll report back somewhere this week. I've read that these errors can end up with a full sensor replacement (which I wouldn't mind actually - it'll be like new). He's insured so if a repair needs to be done it'll be covered. I'm still treading very carefully but I know him and do trust him. So it'll probably be another short wait for him to report back with any issues.
He's going to send his Camera in for a full check (with that one weird photo I took as reference) and the error. He'll report back somewhere this week. I've read that these errors can end up with a full sensor replacement (which I wouldn't mind actually - it'll be like new). He's insured so if a repair needs to be done it'll be covered. I'm still treading very carefully but I know him and do trust him. So it'll probably be another short wait for him to report back with any issues.
Another issue to consider is resale value. If you want/have to sell the GFX within the warranty period, you may have to sell it 25% of purchasing price but shouldn't have any difficulties selling; but you may be really challenged selling the H system camera at any price.
Jon Warwick
Member
That's pretty amazing, there were some others that I really thought would be film. Certainly I've always much preferred the rendering of film over digital (personally using 35mm, 120, 4x5 for ages as a result), but increasingly cannot deny the benefits of digitally taking the image in the first place .... and when I see the timeless and very convincing "analogue feel" to the output that you've achieved despite digital capture, I find your work rather motivating!
marchaers
Member
@Jon Warwick Thank you so much. Same goes for me though, there's something about the look of film that's still very hard to reproduce in digital. I've already moved away a bit from 'replicating' the film look but I always want that same 'feel' to the images. It's very nice to hear your kind words. Glad that it evokes a positive response. 
I would have advised to send the camera for a check-up after reading your previous mail, so that's good news. A camera with recent check-up is some kind of reassuring, especially for this kind of beast.
Thank you to have shared your conclusions, they are interesting and without big surprise I think.
I'm late to this thread but if it were me, which it isn't, I would try my hardest to buy new vs. used. I'm sure there is a way to work around the skin color issues that you mention - maybe with a profile for the camera. Profiling the camera can customize it to your specific needs.
If you do decide to buy the 100s then, for sure, look into the 80mm lens.
Best of luck.....
Victor B.
If you do decide to buy the 100s then, for sure, look into the 80mm lens.
Best of luck.....
Victor B.
Thanks for your question - and appreciate all the great responses from folks in this thread - currently looking to upgrade from an IQ series to full size medium format - however not sure just what the main difference was - to me the look is definitely different via the different sized chips - so thanks again all for weighing in and helping my own weird thought process - deciding between larger sensors & mid size
Godfrey
Well-known member
Just a data point: I had the 907x/CFVII 50c doing copy work for several hours yesterday (digital capture of about 100 Polaroid prints). It was fitted with the XV Adapter, extension tube, and the Makro-Planar 120mm lens, and operated using Phocus Mobile 2 on an iPad Pro 11" for the effort.
The whole operation was seamless and enjoyable. I photographed a gray card to establish an exposure baseline and used it to also set a fixed color temperature for white balance. I set focus once, set f/11 on the lens, and varied capture times over a 3EV range based on what I was seeing in the individual prints. I made many bracketing exposures for some of the originals due to the nature of Polaroid integral film and its complex rendering. On a very few occasions, the software lagged behind an adjustment in capture time by a bit, likely due to the 300ms readout speed, but it was never out of bounds of my patience.
Power economy I felt was pretty remarkable. My 907x battery was at 91% when I started. The camera was powered and WiFi connected for the duration of the effort, and after 250 exposures the battery still showed 21% capacity left. The back was fairly warm at the end of the effort, but cooled quickly once I powered it off.
Imported into LR Classic and Phocus from the card after the fact, all the exposures are dead on the money with respect to color correction and reflect the original prints very very accurately. Of course, they may not stay that way after I finish rendering work... LOL! And the sensor presents a much wider dynamic range than nearly any other camera I've done this work with, making it possible to do more with the often-fussy Polaroid print's short latitude and contrasty output.
I was going to tally up the costs, but we all know what a 907x/CFVII 50c Special Edition cost new in 2019, and the XV Adapter, an extension tube, and the used Makro-Planar 120 lens—plus the copy stand and lights—probably means I didn't break the $9000 mark total for the whole setup.
Not inexpensive, but I'm very happy with performance like this.
G
The whole operation was seamless and enjoyable. I photographed a gray card to establish an exposure baseline and used it to also set a fixed color temperature for white balance. I set focus once, set f/11 on the lens, and varied capture times over a 3EV range based on what I was seeing in the individual prints. I made many bracketing exposures for some of the originals due to the nature of Polaroid integral film and its complex rendering. On a very few occasions, the software lagged behind an adjustment in capture time by a bit, likely due to the 300ms readout speed, but it was never out of bounds of my patience.
Power economy I felt was pretty remarkable. My 907x battery was at 91% when I started. The camera was powered and WiFi connected for the duration of the effort, and after 250 exposures the battery still showed 21% capacity left. The back was fairly warm at the end of the effort, but cooled quickly once I powered it off.
Imported into LR Classic and Phocus from the card after the fact, all the exposures are dead on the money with respect to color correction and reflect the original prints very very accurately. Of course, they may not stay that way after I finish rendering work... LOL! And the sensor presents a much wider dynamic range than nearly any other camera I've done this work with, making it possible to do more with the often-fussy Polaroid print's short latitude and contrasty output.
I was going to tally up the costs, but we all know what a 907x/CFVII 50c Special Edition cost new in 2019, and the XV Adapter, an extension tube, and the used Makro-Planar 120 lens—plus the copy stand and lights—probably means I didn't break the $9000 mark total for the whole setup.
Not inexpensive, but I'm very happy with performance like this.
G
darr
Well-known member
Career Hasselblad user, film and digital, so consider me one of their cheerleaders.
Also a Fuji APS-C user (four Fuji cameras in the gear closet at the moment), so consider me one of their cheerleaders as well.
Here is a recently released video I thought might interest some reading this thread:
Also a Fuji APS-C user (four Fuji cameras in the gear closet at the moment), so consider me one of their cheerleaders as well.
Here is a recently released video I thought might interest some reading this thread:
bab
Active member
Hmm for portraits u might want to watch some of Peter Coulson’s utube videos he shoots a lot with the 100mm HC lens he also dives very deep into skin tones. As far as advice if you were to reach out and email him he does respond! Personally I’ve had four H5-6 bodies and own a generous selection of lenses I’ve yet to be disappointed. As for the sharpest lenses I wouldn’t consider shooting portraits with them even the 120mm H lens requires a butt load of extra work on the skin. I would buy previously experienced equipment in a heart beat the body is cheap and the lenses albeit the orange dot (which only offer appx 1-1 1/2 stops) are selling for almost free!
For product shots if your going to crop the image at all the largest sensor makes the most sense but you will find many touting the Fuji/Sony etc avenue as just as good (umm) don’t think so, Phocus is amazing tethered no other software can compete with ease.
Good Luck
For product shots if your going to crop the image at all the largest sensor makes the most sense but you will find many touting the Fuji/Sony etc avenue as just as good (umm) don’t think so, Phocus is amazing tethered no other software can compete with ease.
Good Luck
saintsteve
Member
Quick question, why f/11? With flat field like copy work you certainly don't need depth of field.Just a data point: I had the 907x/CFVII 50c doing copy work for several hours yesterday (digital capture of about 100 Polaroid prints). It was fitted with the XV Adapter, extension tube, and the Makro-Planar 120mm lens, and operated using Phocus Mobile 2 on an iPad Pro 11" for the effort.
The whole operation was seamless and enjoyable. I photographed a gray card to establish an exposure baseline and used it to also set a fixed color temperature for white balance. I set focus once, set f/11 on the lens, and varied capture times over a 3EV range based on what I was seeing in the individual prints. I made many bracketing exposures for some of the originals due to the nature of Polaroid integral film and its complex rendering. On a very few occasions, the software lagged behind an adjustment in capture time by a bit, likely due to the 300ms readout speed, but it was never out of bounds of my patience.
Power economy I felt was pretty remarkable. My 907x battery was at 91% when I started. The camera was powered and WiFi connected for the duration of the effort, and after 250 exposures the battery still showed 21% capacity left. The back was fairly warm at the end of the effort, but cooled quickly once I powered it off.
Imported into LR Classic and Phocus from the card after the fact, all the exposures are dead on the money with respect to color correction and reflect the original prints very very accurately. Of course, they may not stay that way after I finish rendering work... LOL! And the sensor presents a much wider dynamic range than nearly any other camera I've done this work with, making it possible to do more with the often-fussy Polaroid print's short latitude and contrasty output.
I was going to tally up the costs, but we all know what a 907x/CFVII 50c Special Edition cost new in 2019, and the XV Adapter, an extension tube, and the used Makro-Planar 120 lens—plus the copy stand and lights—probably means I didn't break the $9000 mark total for the whole setup.
Not inexpensive, but I'm very happy with performance like this.
G
Godfrey
Well-known member
Polaroid prints are not exactly optically flat and are hard to hold flat. Also, nearly any lens (including the Makro-Planar 120mm f/4 T*) will typically perform a little better across the entire imaging field stopped down by 1-2 stops from wide open. So normally I'd use f/8 for paper or film, but to accommodate the 3D form of the Polaroid prints, I went one more stop. At the ~1:3 magnification required, that nets ~1.5-2mm DOF and ensures good focus regardless of the prints' variability.
G
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Abstraction
Well-known member
Satisfaction or dissatisfaction with color usually and most likely has to do with the color profile used in the RAW editor. If you've used various RAW editors with your Fuji and you're still not satisfied with the color, you should probably create your own color profile and that will most likely cure all the color ills you've been experiencing.