i think the top tier f/2.0 ASPH M lenses are $8k-$9.5k. Those are small, manual focus lenses. A big medium format lens with AF and a leaf shutter that they insist is “even better” has to cost 50% more.
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Hasselblad X2D and Leica S3 - Update 2: A difficult focus
- Thread starter MGrayson
- Start date
Big medium format lenses dont have the size and weight requirement.
i think no S lens has ever been more expensive than a Noctilux.
the 35sl costs less than the 35 m apo, same for the 50 apos.
I dont expect the S lenses to be priced low, but if they cost 7 or 8 k I will say no thanks.
i think no S lens has ever been more expensive than a Noctilux.
the 35sl costs less than the 35 m apo, same for the 50 apos.
I dont expect the S lenses to be priced low, but if they cost 7 or 8 k I will say no thanks.
buildbot
Well-known member
Incredible - Thank you!Old Sinar Switzerland employees work at Alpa and I heard there's one or so in existence, but not sure. The joke is that they made adapters which are useless, basically:
190.060.020 ALPA Backadapter für Sinar S30|45 Digitalrückteile | ALPA Product Page
All the details and images of the ALPA product 190.060.020 ALPA backadapter for Sinar S30|45 digital backs; article no 190.060.020; May 13, 2024de.alpa.swiss
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Doesn’t make any sense - the APO 35 M is exceedingly difficult to manufacture because of its small size and the tolerances in play. It costs them more to churn out a copy which is within their very high specifications because it is very difficult to squeeze that kind of performance out of a small lens diameter.
Medium format S lenses for example don’t have the size limit requirement and neither do the SL lenses which are significantly larger (not only height-wise, but also in terms of diameter). Look at the intro video of the 35 APO M where Karbe is interviewed. The new APO M comes close, but does not exceed the APO SL 35 … which costs significantly less, but doesn’t need to be built at such a small size.
With the SL line Leica optimised production processes making it efficient for them to produce class leading lenses at a better price point than the M lenses where the tolerances are even higher and therefore the costs for a “within-spec” lens. They all share components such as the outer housing, bringing down costs. The same design philosophy and resulting cost efficiency is to be expected for the next-gen S lenses.
There is no evidence that the new S lenses will break the 10k barrier, and in reality what happens is that product management will let product engineering backsolve from a max market price starting point which could be say 6k for a new S mirrorless lens.
Clearly, they won’t be cheap, but I also believe that Leica will price them right in the sense that they won’t be completely away from the competition. Of course a grudge may arise for those who are priced out of these products, but it doesn't change the fact that Leica lenses are of very high quality which of course needs to be paid for.
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No doubt, they would be high quality, assuming that they see the light of day, but so are the Fuji GFX and Hasselblad XCD lenses. Given the current prices for the M and SL lenses, I can't believe new S lenses wouldn't come in at a huge premium. The M and SL lenses are already priced completely away from the competition in the FF market.
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
More comparison of the 120 macros. This time in the mode I'd usually use them: f/8 landscape. Good news: they're both magnificent. The XCD 120 focuses a bit faster, but there wasn't a big difference in usage or results. Sometimes the colors were so close I couldn't tell them apart.
Flare test: The sun was full-on reflecting off that window. S3 with S 120/2.5 @ f/8, 1/750 s, ISO 100
X2D, XCD 120/3.5 @ f/8 1/680 s, ISO 64
No flare. Great lenses.
Light reflecting off of ice on a pond. Crops around the zone of focus.
Leica S3 1/180, ISO 800
[/url
X2D 1/220, ISO 800
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2o6Wh6k]
Conclusion, both lenses and cameras are freaking awesome.
I'll try to get some portrait comparisons next time.
Flare test: The sun was full-on reflecting off that window. S3 with S 120/2.5 @ f/8, 1/750 s, ISO 100
X2D, XCD 120/3.5 @ f/8 1/680 s, ISO 64
No flare. Great lenses.
Light reflecting off of ice on a pond. Crops around the zone of focus.
Leica S3 1/180, ISO 800
[/urlX2D 1/220, ISO 800
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2o6Wh6k]
Conclusion, both lenses and cameras are freaking awesome.
I'll try to get some portrait comparisons next time.
Please note, that Sinar is not anymore belonging to Leica these days.
MacConsult the major German distributor has taken over responsibility.
https://macconsult.de/wp-content/2022/10/sinar-in-digit-4-2022-english.pdf (magazine article Stefan Steib)
Portraits! Of Soup?!?
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
Well, I have 8 years of handling Leica S bodies, one year of X1D, and a few weeks of X2D (which feels very different from the earlier model), so the comparison is a bit unfair. The S is an extremely satisfying camera ergonomically, both tactile, and audible. The XCD lenses sound outright tinny. But the X2D is growing on me in a way that the X1D never did.
But what really makes a camera fun is the anticipation of the result. The S gave me so many dropped jaws that I just looked forward to every capture. I think the X2D is headed there.
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MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
I'm afraid I have the 135/2.8 to add to the mix - probably better for Soup portraits than the 120/3.5. But I'm going to enlist the help of a real portrait photographer who shoots almost exclusively with an S(007) and the 120/2.5, so we'll see what he can do. (He never shoots shorter than 100mm, so the 80/1.9 isn't in the running. And I don't have one. And I don't intend to get one.)
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Ray Harrison
Well-known member
Soup keeps you very busy and on your toes. It's hard to tell whether he's pleased with your efforts or indeed whether he agrees with your lens and camera choices (cats are tough customers), but the humans amongst us do indeed appreciate what you do and the information you provide. That has to count for something.Sigh. X2D 135/2.8, 1/25s, ISO 6400. You can imagine how dark it is here for those parameters. I did some minor brushing of the eye and general background darkening.
Bill Caulfeild-Browne
Well-known member
Meow!
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
I have two daughters who are insatiable Soup photo consumers. Most of those are iPhone, so you are (usually) spared. Only the *special* camera and lens tests make it here! He's a very long cat. In one photo (not here) I later measured the rug where his paws were and he was 43" fully outstretched!Soup keeps you very busy and on your toes. It's hard to tell whether he's pleased with your efforts or indeed whether he agrees with your lens and camera choices (cats are tough customers), but the humans amongst us do indeed appreciate what you do and the information you provide. That has to count for something.
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
Now we have some real light, so it's time to wake up Soup!
X2D, all with the 135/2.8 wide open. Didn't think to bring the S3 to this shoot.
He's enjoying the morning light.
... when someone disturbs his rest ...
"Oh. It's you again."
Certainly easy to nail focus with this combo. I didn't have a single miss with 10 exposures. Wish I'd had the S3 and S120/2.5 with me. Perfect opportunity.
Matt
X2D, all with the 135/2.8 wide open. Didn't think to bring the S3 to this shoot.
He's enjoying the morning light.
... when someone disturbs his rest ...
"Oh. It's you again."
Certainly easy to nail focus with this combo. I didn't have a single miss with 10 exposures. Wish I'd had the S3 and S120/2.5 with me. Perfect opportunity.
Matt
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
In order, all with -1 stop offset to keep highlights. They were blowing out without it. Sunlight on white paws...
1/140, ISO 400
1/180, ISO 200
1/170, ISO 200
That's why these would have been a good Leica comparison, being on the edge of where IBIS might matter.
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
And now for a completely unfair experiment. I'm here in my evening Bad Light from Hell™ living room with both cameras and I'm taking similar pictures of Soup. I'm going to show the "Imported into LR" and "Good enough" versions and what it took to get them there.
S3, 120/2.5, f/2.5, 1/60, ISO 6400
Actions needed: White balance of chest. Adjust levels. Vignette.
And with the X2D, 135/2.8, f/2.8, 1/60, ISO 6400
BTW, that was auto white balance as shot, and Phocus brought it in the same.
Actions needed: White balance of chest, adjust levels, increase clarity, turn down sharpness, increase yellow luminance and saturation, adjust local clarity, vignette.
Those extra steps took a long time, but can now be saved as a (hopefully useful) preset.
The X2D file came through much flatter, hence the clarity adjustments, but it was also more sharpened by default. The Yellow adjustments were to match the Leica image - One can argue who should be matching whom here. Here's the X2D file after white balance and levels:
This is obviously better for someone who wants a starting point where everything is visible. I tend to like Leica's defaults - it has made me lazy.
(The slight green cast to Soup's fur on the Hassy file only shows up on the web. I've tried setting profiles to srgb, but I must be messing something up. It doesn't affect the Leica jpgs.)
Oh, there's one more difference between these files, and it's not simply focus. The shutter speeds are 1/60 second. IBIS for the win!
S3
X2D
Yes, that's my CD collection just left of center. Four out of five ophthalmologists recommend the Hasselblad X2D!
Matt
S3, 120/2.5, f/2.5, 1/60, ISO 6400
Actions needed: White balance of chest. Adjust levels. Vignette.
And with the X2D, 135/2.8, f/2.8, 1/60, ISO 6400
BTW, that was auto white balance as shot, and Phocus brought it in the same.
Actions needed: White balance of chest, adjust levels, increase clarity, turn down sharpness, increase yellow luminance and saturation, adjust local clarity, vignette.
Those extra steps took a long time, but can now be saved as a (hopefully useful) preset.
The X2D file came through much flatter, hence the clarity adjustments, but it was also more sharpened by default. The Yellow adjustments were to match the Leica image - One can argue who should be matching whom here. Here's the X2D file after white balance and levels:
This is obviously better for someone who wants a starting point where everything is visible. I tend to like Leica's defaults - it has made me lazy.
(The slight green cast to Soup's fur on the Hassy file only shows up on the web. I've tried setting profiles to srgb, but I must be messing something up. It doesn't affect the Leica jpgs.)
Oh, there's one more difference between these files, and it's not simply focus. The shutter speeds are 1/60 second. IBIS for the win!
S3
X2D
Yes, that's my CD collection just left of center.
Four out of five ophthalmologists recommend the Hasselblad X2D!Matt
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MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
Dammit! I'm an idiot.
What do you do with a flatter file? Increase the contrast! That increases saturation, because LR doesn't have a luminance curve, so desaturate.
So long difficult process on the left. Simple process on the right.
Remember, this is my target - the lightly processed S3 image. Would probably have used some clarity on the Hassy image, but it would be for fine tuning, not gross contrast differences.
So it really is easy to get close enough. X2D looking good.
Edit: Yes, as you have no doubt guessed, all this is even easier in Phocus because it DOES have a Luma curve, and the resulting WB is better. So aside from generating 600MB tiffs
, it's a great workflow. Looks like my 4TB stupidly fast RAID (it matches the speed of internal memory on my old iMac Pro) has to expand. And the backup disks. And ...
What do you do with a flatter file? Increase the contrast! That increases saturation, because LR doesn't have a luminance curve, so desaturate.
So long difficult process on the left. Simple process on the right.
Remember, this is my target - the lightly processed S3 image. Would probably have used some clarity on the Hassy image, but it would be for fine tuning, not gross contrast differences.
So it really is easy to get close enough. X2D looking good.
Edit: Yes, as you have no doubt guessed, all this is even easier in Phocus because it DOES have a Luma curve, and the resulting WB is better. So aside from generating 600MB tiffs
, it's a great workflow. Looks like my 4TB stupidly fast RAID (it matches the speed of internal memory on my old iMac Pro) has to expand. And the backup disks. And ...
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