Hasselblad X2D coming soon to a divorce near you

[TechTalk]

It is interesting that X2D seems to have one-stop better IBIS (CIPA?) than Fuji, which has a much longer experience in IBIS.

The Hasselblad IBIS patent uses a different approach to how motion is controlled. The current convention is to use a motor controlled by a magnetic voice coil. Hasselblad's design uses multiple piezo actuators acting on a frame.

Piezo movement of a frame is technology with which Hasselblad has many years of experience for positioning the sensor in multi-shot cameras. With the current H6D-400c multi-shot, they have sensor displacement accuracy measured in nanometers.

It's quite possible that the X2D could use a conventional IBIS motor, however. Hasselblad's new design may require more development time to find use in a product. I'll be curious to find out what method they're using after the launch.

 

[MGrayson]

I hope they don’t try to use the ibis for sensor cleaning. The frequency is way too slow to dislodge dust.

 

[onasj]

In an effort to un-hijack my thread back to the original purpose...
The new leak confirms that the second lens is a 55/2.5, and the first is a 38/2.5, so it makes sense if the third is a telephoto/2.5.

And the brochure also confirms 16-bit RAW files (the X1D did as well but I think the 101 MP sensor is more likely to have the dynamic range that might actually make use of more than 14 bits.

 

[SrMphoto]

In an effort to un-hijack my thread back to the original purpose...
The new leak confirms that the second lens is a 55/2.5, and the first is a 38/2.5, so it makes sense if the third is a telephoto/2.5.

And the brochure also confirms 16-bit RAW files (the X1D did as well but I think the 101 MP sensor is more likely to have the dynamic range that might actually make use of more than 14 bits.

The X1D sensor provides 14-bit data that the camera "massages" to 16-bit output.
The 100MP sensor can be used both in 14 and 16-bit modes. X2D is likely to have a switchable 14/16 bit mode. The 14-bit mode has the advantage of faster fps shooting and faster sensor readout (less rolling shutter). Also, at higher ISO, there is likely no benefit of using the camera in 14-bit mode, but the raw file will likely always have the same size (16-bit values).
P2P comparison of the 50MP and 100MP sensors (GFX cameras) does not show much max PDR difference.

 

[SrMphoto]

Jim Kasson measured the readout speed of the 50MP and the 100MP sensors:

• 50MP sensor (14-bit): 250ms
• 100MP 14-bit: 162ms
• 100MP 16-bit: 350ms

The numbers mean that in X2D, when compared to X1D, the rolling shutter will be reduced in 14-bit mode and worse in 16-bit mode.

 

[hcubell]

The question is how you define “handmade” - it can mean assembly of a pre made kit which comes delivered from Shenzen - it is a grey zone and often also a debate in watch manufacturing; in Switzerland for example they expressly introduced regulations to stipulate what still constitutes a “Swiss made” watch, ie which parts of production need to happen on Swiss ground for the watch to be qualified as Swiss made.

If for example the “handmade” comes down to plopping together the sensor array with a few case pieces then it arguably is a far cry from being solely built in Sweden.

It just strikes me that all leaks come from China including the brochure above. If for marketing reasons they still do a final assembly of pre made pieces on Swedish territory to not be misleading in the marketing this arguably then would be at least a grey zone of sorts, but given the amount of leaks it seems that DJI is playing a huge part in the production of this camera - which would mean a milestone for Chinese camera manufacturing and another step in the evolution of its photo industry.

To be frank, your attempt to cast aspersions on the X2D on this basis is not so well disguised and is completely misplaced. Given the level of sophisticated electronic systems and firmware that a camera like the X2D contains, I can only hope that DJI played a major role in developing and manufacturing those systems and the firmware for the X2D. The electronic systems for an X2D are probably child's play for a company like DJI that is the world's leading manufacturer of drones, and for good reason. On the other hand, the design, the User Interface and the color pipeline are also key components and they all come right from Sweden. There are lots of companies around the world that have different strengths (and weaknesses). Collaboration that combines these strengths should be prized, not impugned. I assume you are aware that Leica has just signed a long term strategic cooperation agreement with Panasonic to develop mirrorless cameras. Exactly what percentage of the physical components come from one country or another is irrelevant to me, and should be irrelevant to someone who intends to use an X2D as tool to make photographs. I don't evaluate these things the way collectors evaluate expensive Swiss watches, as they are not tools. They are ornaments.

 

[KC_2020]

The question is how you define “handmade” - it can mean assembly of a pre made kit which comes delivered from ...

Similar to how Leica defines Made In Germany, from parts produced in Portugal and a number of other countries.

I toured the old HB factory in 1978 back when they finished cameras there. Assembled from parts made by the companies best equipped for the task, many outside Sweden.

 

[onasj]

There are a lot of handmade things that aren’t well-made. There are a lot of mass-produced items that are very well-made. And vice-versa. In the end I care about how well the camera performs, not how many fingers touched it during assembly.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

To be frank, your attempt to cast aspersions on the X2D on this basis is not so well disguised and is completely misplaced. Given the level of sophisticated electronic systems and firmware that a camera like the X2D contains, I can only hope that DJI played a major role in developing and manufacturing those systems and the firmware for the X2D. The electronic systems for an X2D are probably child's play for a company like DJI that is the world's leading manufacturer of drones, and for good reason. On the other hand, the design, the User Interface and the color pipeline are also key components and they all come right from Sweden. There are lots of companies around the world that have different strengths (and weaknesses). Collaboration that combines these strengths should be prized, not impugned. I assume you are aware that Leica has just signed a long term strategic cooperation agreement with Panasonic to develop mirrorless cameras. Exactly what percentage of the physical components come from one country or another is irrelevant to me, and should be irrelevant to someone who intends to use an X2D as tool to make photographs. I don't evaluate these things the way collectors evaluate expensive Swiss watches, as they are not tools. They are ornaments.

My point was that it seems that DJI played a major part in this camera's release seeing that all leaks seemingly come from China given they are either leaked on Chinese social networks or include Chinese language references. I am not saying this is bad per se. I am saying that this marks a milestone for China's camera industry as I am sure that the majority of the body except the sensor / standard electronics were manufactured in China with merely final assembly/calibration remaining in Sweden.

I am not casting aspersions. I think it will be a great camera and am thinking of getting one myself as it is very compact and I like the HNCS. I think on the contrary that some posters try to paint this romantic picture of the appearance of harmonious and prosperous cooperation - with no other ground that citing patent application references or employee names.

To stay competitive, hit a more or less palatable price point and build technologically advanced cameras which on top of shooting pictures also shoot video, have a high quality IBIS system, etc. it is clear that cooperations are necessary given the high R&D required to stay competitive with features and in terms of production. So I am happy that Leica / Panasonic continue their long-standing cooperation to build competitive cameras.

But all this is beside the point I wanted to make in view of the leaks - I stated that I see this camera's release as a new level of industrial sophistication of China whereby with DJI they have a company which can produce world class cameras and lenses which is a step change in their capabilities on the camera side on top of the cinema product range including gimbals and drones. China basically now has a domestic top-class camera company and only thing missing now would be a competitor to the Arri Alexa 35. The combination of DJI with Hasselblad has led to an excellent product which will surely take away market share from Fuji, Leica, etc.

The key takeaway in my view is that they are reaching a point whereby they could also fully do it by themselves.

Anyone interpreting this as me insinuating that this means inferior quality is interpreting my words as it is clear to me that this will be an excellent camera, notwithstanding how it was put together.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I think even most Phase One products are made in Japan at the old Mamiya factory, except the backs. Not sure about the XT

XT body is CNC machined in the Netherlands by Cambo
XT lenses are mounted by Cambo in the Netherlands with the optics coming from Qioptiq in Germany (Rodenstock)
P1 back coming from Denmark with sensor from Sony and standard electronic components sourced globally

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Similar to how Leica defines Made In Germany, from parts produced in Portugal and a number of other countries.

I toured the old HB factory in 1978 back when they finished cameras there. Assembled from parts made by the companies best equipped for the task, many outside Sweden.

The Leica lenses made in Portugal are labelled as "made in Portugal" and "designed in Germany". When Leica moved the production of certain lenses to Portugal they introduced new naming conventions in order to not mislead customers. Like Apple which say that there things are "designed in California".

Leica Store - San Francisco

www.leicastoresf.com

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Products that rely on electronics will often have component parts from multiple countries. Individual electronic components from countries A, B, C, and D may be assembled together on a circuit board in country E to be assembled into a final product in Country F. Any purity tests of national origin are going to get pretty complicated in a global economy.

This is a hot topic in trade politics and the EU for example for foods has introduced clear labelling rules - a bottle of champagne marketed as champagne can only come from the champagne region in France within the EU.

It is clear that with complex products components come from a global marketplace, but nonetheless, if you start marketing that something is made in a special country, there typically are certain rules in place by trademark laws or product specific trade associations in cases where the products are a key part of the domestic industry of a country, by way of defining which key production steps need to happen in a country or by using thresholds in terms of the % of the whole manufacturing process; in the case of Swiss made watches they regulations are as follows:

1. At least 60% of the whole watch’s production costs must be incurred in Switzerland
2. At least 50% of the value of the movement’s components must be manufactured in Switzerland AND at least 60% of the movement’s manufacture must be conducted in Switzerland
3. The technical design of the watch and its movement must be developed in Switzerland

The Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry is considering tightening the Swiss trademark law even further by increasing the percentage of production cost that is genuinely based in Switzerland to at least 80%.

So the question is why, if at all, there's still a strong corporate marketing focus to emphasize that the cameras are "handmade in Sweden"? Although all leaks effectively came out of China? Because customers (still) associate "made in China" with something else? I stated that I believe it will be an excellent camera given the most recent leaks - a true step-up for Hasselblad; but it seems that more the other way around that there's a push to erase DJI's contribution?

My point is that the handmade in Sweden probably only refers to the final assembly step and that DJI is now part of the club of the high end camera manufacturers, which means China has cought up with Japan and Germany in terms of camera manufacturing - it is just a statement of fact and in my view a milestone. On top, with the 8k price point, they will put pressure on the whole MFD competition.

 

[TechTalk]

...I am sure that the majority of the components if not all components were produced in China...

I'm certain that you want to believe that, but what evidence can we see that would support your claim? I'm sure many would be interested.

 

[TechTalk]

...it seems that more the other way around that there's a push to erase DJI's contribution?...

By whom? Several people (myself included) have discussed in detail the collaboration and contributions on the part of DJI... in some detail... and with concrete evidence of it.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

By whom? Several people (myself included) have discussed in detail the collaboration and contributions on the part of DJI... in some detail... and with concrete evidence of it.

Not in the forum - in the official marketing. Is there a trace of DJIs contribution in Hasselblad's marketing? So how do you think is the split between DJI / China and Hasselblad / Sweden in the design and production of this new camera?

Why are all leaks coming from China including the first glimpse of the product brochure? It looks like DJI is in the driver seat. I think all key R&D and product decisions are now made in China.

 

[SrMphoto]

This is a hot topic in trade politics and the EU for example for foods has introduced clear labelling rules - a bottle of champagne marketed as champagne can only come from the champagne region in France within the EU.

It is clear that with complex products components come from a global marketplace, but nonetheless, if you start marketing that something is made in a special country, there typically are certain rules in place by trademark laws or product specific trade associations in cases where the products are a key part of the domestic industry of a country, by way of defining which key production steps need to happen in a country or by using thresholds in terms of the % of the whole manufacturing process; in the case of Swiss made watches they regulations are as follows:

1. At least 60% of the whole watch’s production costs must be incurred in Switzerland
2. At least 50% of the value of the movement’s components must be manufactured in Switzerland AND at least 60% of the movement’s manufacture must be conducted in Switzerland
3. The technical design of the watch and its movement must be developed in Switzerland

The Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry is considering tightening the Swiss trademark law even further by increasing the percentage of production cost that is genuinely based in Switzerland to at least 80%.

So the question is why, if at all, there's still a strong corporate marketing focus to emphasize that the cameras are "handmade in Sweden"? Although all leaks effectively came out of China? Because customers (still) associate "made in China" with something else? I stated that I believe it will be an excellent camera given the most recent leaks - a true step-up for Hasselblad; but it seems that more the other way around that there's a push to erase DJI's contribution?

My point is that the handmade in Sweden probably only refers to the final assembly step and that DJI is now part of the club of the high end camera manufacturers, which means China has cought up with Japan and Germany in terms of camera manufacturing - it is just a statement of fact and in my view a milestone. On top, with the 8k price point, they will put pressure on the whole MFD competition.

The final assembly steps are the most important ones, see Leica.
The rule “if the leaks come from country X, then the camera is made in country X” is strange.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I say it appears that the manufacturing of the body is mostly done in China. I think "handmade in Sweden" means final assembly in Sweden with most of the production being done in Asia. I think this is a change compared to how Hasselblad manufactured cameras in the past.

I'm certain that you want to believe that, but what evidence can we see that would support your claim? I'm sure many would be interested.

 

[TechTalk]

I say it appears that the manufacturing of the body is mostly done in China. I think "handmade in Sweden" means final assembly in Sweden with most of the production being done in Asia. I think this is a change compared to how Hasselblad manufactured cameras in the past.

You're not being misquoted... You said "I am sure that the majority of the components if not all components were produced in China"

Now it's been edited to...

...I am sure that the majority of the body except the sensor / standard electronics were manufactured in China...

I haven't seen any evidence of where anything is made — except that the camera is made in Sweden and the lenses are made in Japan. What have you seen that the rest of us have not?

 

[TechTalk]

When Leica moved the production of certain lenses to Portugal they introduced new naming conventions in order to not mislead customers.

Leica Store - San Francisco

www.leicastoresf.com

Your link is to a dealer (Camera West) website in San Francisco. If you go to Leica's website, they don't indicate where lenses are made or who manufactures them. They don't need to do so. It's their name on the product and they are the ones that stand behind the quality and performance.

So, if a lens is made for them in Japan or by them in Portugal, it doesn't change the fact that Leica is the company that is selling it and standing behind it with their name and reputation — and no one is being misled. The raw optical glass could be from China, it's still their lens.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

You're not being misquoted... You said "I am sure that the majority of the components if not all components were produced in China"

Now it's been edited to...

I haven't seen any evidence of where anything is made — except that the camera is made in Sweden and the lenses are made in Japan. What have you seen that the rest of us have not?

I edited the post before I saw your reply as I often write and then clarify when re reading. It was not edited as a response to your point.

Lol. I am seeing that all leaks for the “handmade Swedish camera” are coming from China and that you are trying to paint this romantic picture of the blossoming of Swedish camera manufacturing under the gentle support from DJI.

Chinese companies have a track record of slowly integrating acquired IP and then doing it themselves. It is business. And you can be sure that all shots are called in Asia.

Anything that is still done out of Sweden is also done for business purposes, either to still benefit from some existing know how of long standing Hasselblad engineers or to market the camera as “handmade in Sweden” for marketing purposes in the West. I am just against romanticising this partnership as I am against demonizing it because of DJI's involvement. But I am sure you are also aware that DJI operates out of a country whose state doctrine for business is to integrate Western IP to build up domestic manufacturing capabilities to become at one point fully independent in terms of technology?

So this is precisely what happened here. We see X brochures written in Chinese being leaked with a Hasseblad logo slapped on the bottom and you are romanticising this as Sweden's new spring in camera manufacturing. In the meantime DJI is becoming a global force in digital cameras, equalling Nikon, Canon and Leica's capabilities. It is a tectonic shift and Hasselblad was the entry point.