leaving medium format and use "just" FF? X2D vs SL2 (or SL3)

[hcubell]

I wonder if the impact of Fuji MF cameras started and accelerated the trend away from MFD at about the same time as many of us older users were contemplating downsizing our gear and migrating away from MFD. Or did we just need a reason? G.A.S.?

I don't think it is G.A.S. Nobody ever wanted to carry a full Phase XF or Hasselblad H kit and lenses You only did it if you had to do it in order to achieve the level of IQ that met your goals. The trade offs 10 years ago between IQ and size/weight of the kit were different from today. The Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X cameras that came out six years or so ago with excellent lenses significantly closed that gap, and the more recent iterations with the 100MP sensor (along with astonishing developments in AI technology for sharpening and upsizing files) have for all practical purposes eliminated the gap to the point where it has become almost impossible to justify the cost and the inconvenience of using a "true" MFD system today. However, there are only three camera manufacturers in the world today that appear to be capable of designing a camera with an intelligent UI that is not hopelessly cluttered with options and features. Hasselblad, Phase, and Leica. Phase and Leica are still offering MFD systems, but they have become dinosaurs in today's market. There is no reason to believe that Phase is ever going to invest the capital to develop a new mirrorless platform that would compete with the GFX or the X2D. Leica has given hints that it may do so, but Leica has never gotten the marketing memo that its cameras need to go on a diet, so I find it hard to be optimistic. If Leica were to release an S4 and a line of lenses that are scaled up from what it has done with the SL2, it would be dead from the start. Nonetheless, I hope Leica can figure it out. Another competitive player in this niche that knows how to design a camera with an intelligent UI would be great.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

This is a very interesting thread with lots of good points. I am a recovering Gear Addict. In my 79th year, I have owned nearly every system there is - from full plate cameras on up. My formative years were spent with Rollei TLRs; later I mostly shot with Canon (remember the F1?) and after a spell with Hassy, Rollei 6008 and Leica R4 I went back to Canon to make the digital transition. I owned Leica Ms, both film and digital. The only significant brand I've never used is Nikon - though I'd like to. But see my second sentence above....I'm supposed to be recovering.

As Paul Spinnier says, age does change the equation. Even so, I have been a Phase owner since the P45 fifteen years ago and still enjoy using it more than any other system. Yes, it's heavy but the image quality and DR is, to my eyes, the best. Do I really need it? No - though I do make large prints and like the ability to crop massively and still have great image quality. (Ironically, though, my all-time best selling print is a 36 by 24 inch landscape taken with a Leica M9!) But as others have observed, most people can't see the difference between an IQ4-150 file and Sony full frame file even at very large sizes.

Today I keep the Phase system with a bunch of lenses and a Sony Ar3 with just two "G" zooms, 24-15 and 100-400. That is my travel/back-up/walk-around system. It's a good system... but.. I really don't love using it. It's very much a tool, whereas the MF still gives me a thrill.

All this is say to the OP that the right camera is not simply a matter of specifications or cost or even applicability to your subjects and mode of shooting - there is an emotional component that if it's right, will give you pleasure every time you pick it up.

(PS - I lied in my second sentence. I just bought a Leica Q2 Monochrom...)

 

[algrove]

Forgot I also have the Q2.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

There's also another aspect playing into the equation. 20 years ago, before the financial crisis, the working pros were babyboomers operating in a significantly more robust economic environment where home ownership actually was achievable with ONE normal job, ie for example as a staff photographer or a photographer focused on commercial services locally.

Clients were paying high prices for high-end digital photo files. I remember a salesman in about 2005 pitching me the P30 as a good tool to bill a higher price ... ie suggesting that the back would pay for itself over time. Go to a client today and I think it isn't as easy anymore to impress with megapixels and to argue for higher pricing off of that.

Millenials can barely make the dream of owning a home work, especially if they want to pay for the upbringing of their kids. This is, in part, because wealth is mostly concentrated with those who are today between 50-70.

Young pros are faced with inflation, AI threat, cost of living crisis, lack of access to the property market, etc.

So this reduces the demographic that has the economic ability to buy into 10k a pop lenses and 20-40k a pop digital backs ...

 

[Geoff]

Could it be that the average age of P1 / tech cam owners is 40-60 and that, as time passes, the wish for more compact systems (due to age, newer high-res alternatives) and lower money spend has cought up with that user group while the newer generation doesnt have the means and perceived need to go MFD anymore given good options like SL2, CaNikon, Hassy / Fuji?

Maybe we are transitioning into a sort of demographic crush for the digital back crowd?

Maybe we've entered a downward cycle for high end MFD as we know it exacerbated by the pandemic as catalyst for an economic / job reset for a lot of photogs and the crowding out of the P1 tech cam stuff by the lower end crop MFD systems and high end 35mm offerings?

What I am saying - 15 years ago, 25-45 something photographers "needed" to own a P30 / P45, etc. kind of system with a 35 XL or so to be on top of their game while FF digital was just getting started with the M9 and Canon 5D MK I; the quality difference was enormous between high end FF 35mm and MFD.

As technology evolved, that gap closed while the price delta increased between the worlds. Look at x-shutter HR lens prices now. One XT 90mm lens buys you a Canon and what 3 lenses?

Current gen 25-35 photographers need to be multimedia savvy (video as well) and do not have the cash to spend on a full blown P1 kit and there are also not the clients anymore that pay for it.

Basically the tech cam owners are ageing and want smaller, lighter stuff and the young ones cannot afford and justify it anymore via client willingness / needs.

High-end MFD is a luxury niche now and less than before the top-end of the professional world (of course still many pros use MFD digital, but not like in the past).

P1 is apparently firing all of its sales reps in Germany at the moment. No more demos at your studio.

World has changed.

Excellent point, but I'd shift the age brackets up a bit: 15 yrs ago, 40-60 owners were seeking the best. Now they are 55-75 (or more), wanting lighter, smaller.
And the smaller gear (say M10 for example) is quite good, so need for heavy guns is less. I love my Alpa/DB gear, but it doesn't get out as much as it should - as smaller, simpler gear somehow pushes their way in. Perhaps its been like this - as hauling 8x10 view cameras around was never part of my world either....

 

[KC_2020]

There's also another aspect playing into the equation. 20 years ago, before the financial crisis, the working pros were babyboomers operating in a significantly more robust economic environment where home ownership actually was achievable with ONE normal job, ie for example as a staff photographer or a photographer focused on commercial services locally.

Clients were paying high prices for high-end digital photo files. I remember a salesman in about 2005 pitching me the P30 as a good tool to bill a higher price ... ie suggesting that the back would pay for itself over time. Go to a client today and I think it isn't as easy anymore to impress with megapixels and to argue for higher pricing off of that.

I don't think it was easy to impress a client with higher megapixels back then.

I'm a baby boomer who was working as a commercial photographer in the L.A. area well before the P30 was introduced in 2005. I transitioned to digital with the Canon 1Ds in 2003. I knew photographers using Phase One backs but they were struggling to get clients to pay more for the higher res images. Plus they were having a very hard time billing for their post production hours. PS hours billed at $150 were supposed to be cheaper than all the film, E-6 processing and drum scans. However it didn't always work out to be cheaper.

I've never owned or leased a Phase One back. I rented one and hired an assistant who was more familiar with it if I needed to go there. I've never regretted that.

Millenials can barely make the dream of owning a home work, especially if they want to pay for the upbringing of their kids. This is, in part, because wealth is mostly concentrated with those who are today between 50-70.

Young pros are faced with inflation, AI threat, cost of living crisis, lack of access to the property market, etc.

So this reduces the demographic that has the economic ability to buy into 10k a pop lenses and 20-40k a pop digital backs ...

Most Millennials are shooting weddings or trying to go the influencer route to survive as photographers. I think you can count on your fingers how many are shooting medium format in the U.S.. They're shooting video more than anything.

 

[buildbot]

Most Millennials are shooting weddings or trying to go the influencer route to survive as photographers. I think you can count on your fingers how many are shooting medium format in the U.S.. They're shooting video more than anything.

I can add +1 to that count I am very nearly a Zoomer instead of a Millennial too! I bet film is more popular by far than digital for weddings that desire medium format.
Though I would not consider myself anything other than a enthusiast vs a professional, so perhaps I don't count haha.

 

[tcdeveau]

I can add +1 to that count I am very nearly a Zoomer instead of a Millennial too! I bet film is more popular by far than digital for weddings that desire medium format.
Though I would not consider myself anything other than a enthusiast vs a professional, so perhaps I don't count haha.

Our wedding photographers (my wife's cousin and her husband) do some of their portrait shots on 4x5 film and they're awesome.

I kinda think we've reached a point of singularity with digital where just about anything is good enough these days, and I'm not convinced your average client cares what you shoot with...combine that with the economy and everything else out there in the world and it's harder to justify medium format - whether we're talking Fuji GFX, Hassy X, Leica S, or Phase.

I'm only almost 40 and am even looking at abandoning the Z9 I use for my family for something smaller. My wife recently got fed up with the size and weight of the Z9 and moved over to a Fuji X-T4. I may pull a page from Lou's book and do the same.

Paul's definitely right about the inflation too. I'm married with two young kids and am the sole earner in the family - we're spending more in the last year then the last 2-3 combined probably. Financially, I was in a fortunate place when I picked up the IQ4A, but the way things are going, those kinds of purchases are likely going to be out of the question in the future, especially since I've got kids to raise and put through school, etc.

Whatever one's gear choices, content is always king. The image of mine that generates the most interest that ppl comment on the most when they see it in person is one that I took with a Hassy X1D - even when next to the IQ4A stuff - and one can get an X1D for the fraction of the IQ4A these days. The only image that won me an award and money was with a Nikon D300 and nifty fifty. The only other image I took that almost won me lots of money was with a Sony A7R2. I'm sure all of you have similar experiences. I think we all understand the joy of MF, but it does get harder to justify the experience and personal preference over time considering the expense and other realities of photography today.

 

[spb]

The Hasselblad X2D with a 38V fills the bill for me currently not too big, large sensor to do whatever I need and great image quality.

Great combo which I really like very much and the images one can get are really very nice indeed

 

[Paul Spinnler]

You’ll NEVER Own A Home Unless… 😳 #shorts

You’ll NEVER Own A Home Unless… 😳 _______________________________________LIMITED TIME OFFERS:📈Free Stock Worth Up To $1,000 From Public (for USA) - https:/...

youtube.com

Sums it up nicely.

 

[rollsman44]

I could use some suggestions as I am in the same Boat. I am 76 and shooting MF film and Digital for about 49 yeras. Weddings etc
I have a fear of leaving MF and NOT going to Mirrorless and FF as I have LOVED the IQ of MF
I know things are different today and I sometimes refuse to accept that( denial)
Any suggestions for what I do now ( all Pro Bono) except a few paid jobs( portraits, Family group shots) Thats It
I currently own Hassy X1D2 and 45P lens . The IQ is Fantastic and small and Lightweigt. What I want is a Portrait lens and DONT want to pay 3-4K for a XCD lens and the weight
So this article has given me some hope about leaving MF.
MY question: Do I stay with the Hassy X1D2 and the 45P and Buy another camera and lens for my portraits( Mirrorless )
Next : I am NOT a fan of Sony. So, lets talk about the others. Fuji, Nikon and Maybe Canon( have not been a fan of Canon since the 5D)
Do I invest in the Mirrorless and sell the Hassy and Lens?
Thank you Dennis

 

[KC_2020]

Dennis there are many options for a portrait lens if you work with a mount adapter. And of course there is the TTArtisan 90mm F/1.25 which s a wonderful portrait lens in X mount at a very affordable price. It does not have a shutter though so you would be using the electronic shutter without flash sync.

 

[rollsman44]

Thank you KC. I dont like the Electronic shutter and I NEED AF TY I appreciate it

 

[Geoff]

Consider the 65mm XCD lens, used for $2k... not a bad option. Gets you in that much closer... might do the trick.

 

[rollsman44]

I was thinking of that

 

[rollsman44]

In Fact I was looking at the XCD 90mm Lens Close in price to the 65

 

[rollsman44]

MY other thoughts considering I dont shoot for $$$ any more, Mostly Pro BONO
I should sell my Hassy and 45P and just go Mirrorless and with Excellent Lenses. Could save some money too

 

[Paratom]

I really like the 65 (and that is my combo 30 and 65) until the 55 is available again. 80/1.9 is the best with its nice bokeh but heavy and expensive. 90mm is great as well , but I find 65 more flexible.
If you already own the x1d2 and 45, I would not go into another system just for a portrait lens.

 

[Paratom]

MY other thoughts considering I dont shoot for $$$ any more, Mostly Pro BONO
I should sell my Hassy and 45P and just go Mirrorless and with Excellent Lenses. Could save some money too

I doubt you would save money if you switch systems. And excellent lenses from mirrorless system aren't cheap either.

 

[Thorkil]

I could use some suggestions as I am in the same Boat. I am 76 and shooting MF film and Digital for about 49 yeras. Weddings etc
I have a fear of leaving MF and NOT going to Mirrorless and FF as I have LOVED the IQ of MF
I know things are different today and I sometimes refuse to accept that( denial)
Any suggestions for what I do now ( all Pro Bono) except a few paid jobs( portraits, Family group shots) Thats It
I currently own Hassy X1D2 and 45P lens . The IQ is Fantastic and small and Lightweigt. What I want is a Portrait lens and DONT want to pay 3-4K for a XCD lens and the weight
So this article has given me some hope about leaving MF.
MY question: Do I stay with the Hassy X1D2 and the 45P and Buy another camera and lens for my portraits( Mirrorless )
Next : I am NOT a fan of Sony. So, lets talk about the others. Fuji, Nikon and Maybe Canon( have not been a fan of Canon since the 5D)
Do I invest in the Mirrorless and sell the Hassy and Lens?
Thank you Dennis

Why not stay with the X1D and buy a Nikon Z7 + 85/1.8S? (or 105MC, but, which seems more busy in the bokeh?) The nikon is so effecttive, nice and easy to handle
KR Thorkil