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Looks like tilt is coming to XT natively

vieri

Well-known member
I’ve been discussing this off-line with some folks. Isn’t it true the XT rotates the whole camera around the tripod mount? If so, does this mean it will only tilt in landscape and swing in portrait?
What am I missing?

Dave
That appears to be correct. Making the Arca-Swiss Rm3di with Rotamount probably the best solution in terms of having tilt on every lens, including the 23mm (not possible with Alpa), having 5' tilt (not 3' as with the Phase), and not having to change anything when switching from portrait to landscape orientation (unlike the Phase).

Best regards,

Vieri
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
That appears to be correct. Making the Arca-Swiss Rm3di with Rotamount probably the best solution in terms of having tilt on every lens, including the 23mm (not possible with Alpa), having 5' tilt (not 3' as with the Phase), and not having to change anything when switching from portrait to landscape orientation (unlike the Phase).

Best regards,

Vieri
The beauty of the Alpa system is that you can remove the back assembly in literally 5 seconds and put it back in in portrait orientation. It requires flipping open the two latches and quickly twisting the back and closing the latches again. So the symmetry of the design allows for very quick adjustments. Nice for a 3 way stitch left to right in portrait mode.
 

vieri

Well-known member
The beauty of the Alpa system is that you can remove the back assembly in literally 5 seconds and put it back in in portrait orientation. It requires flipping open the two latches and quickly twisting the back and closing the latches again. So the symmetry of the design allows for very quick adjustments.
True. Much easier, even faster and much less risky in bad weather, precarious conditions, etc to just turn the back without removing it, though. Much safer for dirt / dust, too.

Best regards,

Vieri
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
True. Much easier, even faster and much less risky in bad weather, precarious conditions, etc to just turn the back without removing it, though. Much safer for dirt / dust, too.

Best regards,

Vieri
Fully agreed, you have to be concentrated and it can make you sweat a bit in the conditions you describe.
 

dchew

Well-known member
That appears to be correct. Making the Arca-Swiss Rm3di with Rotamount probably the best solution in terms of having tilt on every lens, including the 23mm (not possible with Alpa), having 5' tilt (not 3' as with the Phase), and not having to change anything when switching from portrait to landscape orientation (unlike the Phase).

Best regards,

Vieri
Actually, it is possible and available directly from Alpa:
Rodi 23mm Short Barrel from Alpa

Still, the Rotamount is nice. I wish the XT rotated the back instead of the whole camera. I suppose there are benefits doing what P1 did rotating the camera, but it does limit this tilt application.

Dave

 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Did they say anything about the price for the 138mm HR?
No haven't seen it yet, seems also this then comes direct from Cambo, but stand to be corrected by the dealers who have more info on this. Certainly going to be not cheap ...

Another point to consider - the lens is extremely heavy meaning the XT will be rather front heavy with it. This means in the field a gitzo systematic 4 or 5 becomes almost a must if you want to be on the safe side. Add to that the compendium and you really need to be careful. When I handled the Pano and 138 I was super careful as I realized how heavy it all becomes once you mount this beast of a lens.

I also think the Alpa version uses their longest proprietary large spacer in the back (meaning the setup is modular) so potentially you could maybe use tilt if you use smaller tilt enabled spacers instead of the one big one - but not sure, maybe even concatenate two tilt spacers to have tilt and swing at the same time (they are symmetric, you can combine two in different orientations) which would make the Alpa version more versatile by a large margin as you:

a) can use the tremendous IC, eg. with Max, Pano
b) can integrate tilt / swing (TBD)

Just seems like using a Bazooka to shoot pigeons when mounting a 138 HR onto an XT especially as there is no real benefit of vignetting and color cast control as the image is very even up to the edges with no colour cast to be seen.

Another benefit I see with the Alpa version is for macro / repro purposes. You can add multiple modular spacers to it to go to macro magnification when for example digitizing negatives and when using the bellows from Novoflex and the Alpa IQ back adapter. If you take the automated Novoflex macro thing you can probably also focus stack with the 138mm in macro scenarios.

I think the pure macro performance will be not as good as with the 105 which is purpose made for high magnification and has a floating lens design you can adjust, but close. The 105 does not have a shutter so this is then a trade-off. The fact that you have an X-shutter now would allow you to use flash and digitize at say 1/250 to 1/1000 meaning vibration and un-perfect repro setups are not an issue as long as you have enough flash power to go around (not swapping the LED light source below for a flash soft box, but for example to digitize reflective items such as book pages or art from a bit more high up).

The 138mm is really terrific and when shooting with it I felt the colours were more contrasty and saturated then with the 90 or 70 HR - it reminded me of the Leica APO lenses or if you add a polarizing filter to a lens - basically really high quality lens elements in there to achieve that level of micro contrast and colour pop.
 
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vjbelle

Well-known member
I think the performance will be not as good as the 105 which is purpose made for high magnification, but very close. The fact that you have an X-shutter now would allow you to use flash and digitize at say 1/250 to 1/1000 meaning vibration and un-perfect repro setups are not an issue (not swapping the LED light source below for a flash soft box, but for example to digitize reflective items such as book pages or art from a bit more high up.
This is the limitation of the XT system as it will only work with a Phase back. I can use my 138 with either my Sony or GFX on an Actus with full flash and macro capability. The price of the 138 for the XT will not be for the faint of heart....

Victor B.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
This is the limitation of the XT system as it will only work with a Phase back. I can use my 138 with either my Sony or GFX on an Actus with full flash and macro capability. The price of the 138 for the XT will not be for the faint of heart....

Victor B.
But when you use it with the GFX you don't have flash sync, or? Because if you can get in a macro setup the 138 HR to shutter speeds of 1/500 or 1/1000 you will get vibration free and tack sharp "scans" edge to edge.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Actually, it is possible and available directly from Alpa:
Rodi 23mm Short Barrel from Alpa

Still, the Rotamount is nice. I wish the XT rotated the back instead of the whole camera. I suppose there are benefits doing what P1 did rotating the camera, but it does limit this tilt application.

Dave

I stand corrected, last I checked (over a year ago) this didn't exist, as I recall - but again, I might have missed it back then as well.

Best regards,

Vieri
 
Another benefit I see with the Alpa version is for macro / repro purposes. You can add multiple modular spacers to it to go to macro magnification when for example digitizing negatives and when using the bellows from Novoflex and the Alpa IQ back adapter. If you take the automated Novoflex macro thing you can probably also focus stack with the 138mm in macro scenarios.

I think the pure macro performance will be not as good as with the 105 which is purpose made for high magnification and has a floating lens design you can adjust, but close. The 105 does not have a shutter so this is then a trade-off. The fact that you have an X-shutter now would allow you to use flash and digitize at say 1/250 to 1/1000 meaning vibration and un-perfect repro setups are not an issue as long as you have enough flash power to go around (not swapping the LED light source below for a flash soft box, but for example to digitize reflective items such as book pages or art from a bit more high up).
The purpose of the floating element is to optimize the spacing of the lens groups for the set magnification. The HR 138 is designed for a particular flange distance where the floating element focusing system works at optimal performance. If you put a spacer between the lens and the sensor the floating element will no longer be aligned to the intended optical design. I highly doubt you'll get high quality edge to edge performance in such a setup. At least in my experience, all lenses with floating element that I tested had very poor off-axis performance once an extension tube was added to the system.

Here is a link to a very detailed evaluation of a Phase One system where this lens was selected for digitization of large sheets of aerial film:
Evaluation of Phase One Scan Station for Analogue Aerial Image Digitization
Due to the size of this aerial film the lens could be used within its design specifications for single shot captures.

-Dominique
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
The purpose of the floating element is to optimize the spacing of the lens groups for the set magnification. The HR 138 is designed for a particular flange distance where the floating element focusing system works at optimal performance. If you put a spacer between the lens and the sensor the floating element will no longer be aligned to the intended optical design. I highly doubt you'll get high quality edge to edge performance in such a setup. At least in my experience, all lenses with floating element that I tested had very poor off-axis performance once an extension tube was added to the system.

Here is a link to a very detailed evaluation of a Phase One system where this lens was selected for digitization of large sheets of aerial film:
Evaluation of Phase One Scan Station for Analogue Aerial Image Digitization
Due to the size of this aerial film the lens could be used within its design specifications for single shot captures.

-Dominique
You are right in that it is not ideal for film; I meant more for digitization of books, paintings, etc.

I actually tested the 105 vs. the 138 at Alpa's HQ for that purpose with a Kaiser RSD stand (I know, not ideal); the 105 was markedly better at the magnification of 1 and above which could be useful for stitching high-res scans of film or say 35mm. I therefore opted to get the 105 with the Novoflex bellows. I think the best solution would be 105 with a shutter, but this is only possible with an Alpa FPS which is out of production ...

One learning from that exercise was that although super fast, the workflow with a repro stand still is a lot more "finicky" IMHO compared to a high end flatbed such as the eversmart or IQSmart III which can batch scan ... you need to import all into C1, then neutralize it there, export to LR and then tweak each with NLP ... still a lot better than drum scanning (just in terms of workflow), though, as you surely know ;)

I imagine if you go digitize books or paintings it will be great, don't you think? With flash to even out exposure at 5600 kelvin to get neutral colours ...
 
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vjbelle

Well-known member
But when you use it with the GFX you don't have flash sync, or? Because if you can get in a macro setup the 138 HR to shutter speeds of 1/500 or 1/1000 you will get vibration free and tack sharp "scans" edge to edge.
GFX or Sony I have flash sync and double movements which are almost completely yaw free. EFC is as close to vibrationless as possible. I have never had an issue with shutter vibration. I have the option to use my 4150 but without flash. I realize this is not a pancake camera but it is small, accurate and very flexible. My STC has been in a drawer for quite awhile.

Cheers.....

Victor B.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Well they can't make it 18k or so, I hope, then they are pricing themselves out completely I'd say. It is not a must have focal length so there's a breaking point in the market I'd think somewhere above 10k and below 15k especially in these times. Inflation 8% ... is not the first purchase you think of to buy a moderate tele for the price of a new car. With interest rates now expected to rise more than expected, turmoil in Europe, Italy's PM just having resigned a few minutes ago - don't want to sound alarmist, but it's surely not the hot pancake of the lens world ... so I hope all parties come to their senses when pricing this.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Well they can't make it 18k or so, I hope, then they are pricing themselves out completely I'd say. It is not a must have focal length so there's a breaking point in the market I'd think somewhere above 10k and below 15k especially in these times. Inflation 8% ... is not the first purchase you think of to buy a moderate tele for the price of a new car. With interest rates now expected to rise more than expected, turmoil in Europe, Italy's PM just having resigned a few minutes ago - don't want to sound alarmist, but it's surely not the hot pancake of the lens world ... so I hope all parties come to their senses when pricing this.

138mm lenses in Aperture Mount are already in the $15k - $16k range from Arca/Alpa/Cambo. So adding an X Shutter is going to push that into the $17k -$18k range, I expect.


Steve Hendrix/CI
 
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