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M11 Images

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Well in the eyes of some very knowledgeable reviewers the SL2-S color has changed from the classic Leica look. And now the SL / SL2 color has been matched to the SL2-S with a firmware update according to Leica.
Thats the thing. No camera company maintains a static look. They’re all evolving always because sensor tech and sensor capability changes with advancement. So the idea that there’s this one unified color is just untrue. There’s a reason many yearn for M9 color and later on M10 color… and neither camera reproduces color the same way even if both are pleasing to most.
 
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algrove

Well-known member
Anyone wanting to see other opinions of the colors between the M10R and the M11, I refer you to Sean Reids (SR) latest article on the color differences between the M10R and M11. His next article comparing resolution differences should also be a good read.

To those of you who will not subscribe the SR, why spend over $10k on an M camera and M lens and not spend $50 to perhaps find a better methods for getting the most from your new photographic tool. No one person has all the answers, but for me sometimes cumulative answers with different takes help me better understand my new tool.
 

KC_2020

Active member
Thats the thing. No camera company maintains a static look. They’re all evolving always because sensor tech and sensor capability changes with advancement. So the idea that there’s this one unified color is just untrue. There’s a reason many yearn for M9 color and later on M10 color… and neither camera reproduces color the same way even if both are pleasing to most.
I've been shooting Leica cameras since the 1980s when I used R and M series for photojournalism and have owned or used every evolution of Leica digital cameras. Yes sensors are changing and as a result color but there was a pretty consistent Leica look / color. With the SL2-S and the M11 files are now nearly indistinguishable from other brands. IMHO.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I've been shooting Leica cameras since the 1980s when I used R and M series for photojournalism and have owned or used every evolution of Leica digital cameras. Yes sensors are changing and as a result color but there was a pretty consistent Leica look / color. With the SL2-S and the M11 files are now nearly indistinguishable from other brands. IMHO.
Could that just be more a result of modern lens design and sensors capable of reproducing increased dynamic range than it is actual color reproduction? In the film days the only thing that distinguished brands was lens design and to a lesser extent PP choices in the darkroom. So the “Leica look” was about the optics more than the color reproduction as the film stocks were unilaterally the same.

Maybe some folks feel the SL2-S looks different and perhaps it does but people weren’t complaining about the CL, TL, TL2, etc. color… could there also be an inherent confirmation bias knowing where the sensors are likely coming from? Leica is still specifying their CFA and the software of how color is interpreted like any other sensor derived from Sony or any other sensor fab.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I have used a beta M11 for some time now side by side with my own m10r. Have not yet made up my mind which I like better in regards of color.
In the images above I prefer the M10r image. I will try to post some images in the next days as well.
 
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KC_2020

Active member
Could that just be more a result of modern lens design and sensors capable of reproducing increased dynamic range than it is actual color reproduction?
Undoubtedly modern lens designs and dynamic range contribute to the change. And it's obviously not unique to Leica. Discussions here like Fuji GFX100s and "THAT" MF look come from the same evolution.

In the film days the only thing that distinguished brands was lens design and to a lesser extent PP choices in the darkroom. So the “Leica look” was about the optics more than the color reproduction as the film stocks were unilaterally the same.
That's one of the reasons there has been such huge demand for R lenses that have been converted for digital video use. Albeit for DV cameras with smaller censors. But I don't agree that film stocks or processing were unilaterally the same.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I think the future will have to tell whether the move to a third-party sensor won't kill the Leica colours, ie Mojo. I know some people at the company and they are saying it is not the same and that for the sake of per unit profitability they skipped the development of a custom sensor. This is just a Sony sensor with some minor customizations; the best colours IMHO you get from the Leica S3 ... also apparently the sensor shows that classics such as the SX50 cannot resolve it anymore and certain lenses like 21mm create colour casts.

If colour is your concern, maybe worth holding onto the M10-R just a bit longer to compare. Also not sure I want a 200g lighter body - I like the heft of the M! The picture above looks like an iphone picture.
No.
 

Paul Spinnler

Active member
Care to elaborate that snobbish "no"? I am talking from own experience and based on statements from people in the know. Not everyone there likes the fact that Leica stopped developing their own custom sensors.

I have a Leica SL and a Leica S - colour and DR are different to the point of making a clear difference in quality in my eyes. Not talking about S lenses or OOF look of the format. So I am curious to see how the M11 "looks" and "feels" in real life especially compared to the last generation of proprietary sensors / image processing pipelines. It might be better or just feel like a A7R Sony in a different body with built-in M adapter.

Different sensors with their respective "imaging pipelines" look different, even with C1 profile. And I also happen to own APO M 50, SX M 50 and a M10M; you can clearly see that the new higher resolution sensors show the ageing of the designs introduced more than 10 years ago (although when I bought the SX50 for my M9 I envisioned never selling the lens) and for that reason I also sold the NOCTI 50 0.95 M - I found it unusable in view of me starting to like more the aesthetic of S and APO lenses as I migrated to better equipment over time; I now like when the focus resolves a lot of details followed by a creamy fall-off with not a lot of aberrations and am considering selling my M-Summiluxes although one can make the case that these are now almost a new classic-modern aesthetic as opposed to the "clinical" latest and greatest.

And on the sensor - the reason for taking an off the shelf sensor with minor tweaks plus image processing pipeline via Maestro III is clearly increasing profitability per unit as commissioning again a new sensor (many millions in development costs) whose costs need to be spread across SL, M, Q and S over the lifetime of the products reduces profitability more than just taking a good Sony design, swapping the glass / filter layer and tweaking the image processing as much as possible to eek a proprietary "look" out Sony's sensors.

Looking forward to hearing how M10 / M240 users like the M11.

Best
Paul
 
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hotshoe

Member
Not everyone there likes the fact that Leica stopped developing their own custom sensors.
FWIW, I fall into this camp.

I have a Leica SL and a Leica S - colour and DR are different to the point of making a clear difference in quality in my eyes.
I second this. I have SL & S systems as well, and no amount of tweaking in LR or C1 can replicate the colors of the S, and the S system as a whole, has a unique look from the more modern & clinical look that is becoming commoditized across brands, makes, and models. From an artistic perspective, I appreciate this about the S system, which goes back to my previous comment.
 

algrove

Well-known member
I am not disliking the M11 files since for me I can tweak them to my taste which resembles a Kodachrome feel. I must admit I mainly use my cell phone as a phone and not a camera so the definition of an iPhone looking image is lost on me. Also it seems pointless to debate files when looking at a very small jpeg which one has to do here on this site. I can't even post a 2480 long side jpeg image here without a "TOO BIG" warning which LUF now allows.

Another factor is by using older glass a bit of a glow can be more profound prior to PP. I just wonder if that was Leica's subtle suggestion in using a lot of old glass in their marketing images. I have that 50 year old 226gram 90/2.8 they pictured and the M11 images are marvelous when using it. The Noctilux f1.0 images also have their own charm on the M11.

Remember we all have choices and if one does not like M11 files, then keep your current M and don't upgrade anymore. This way you can accumulate old glass with your G.A.S. which is more fun in many respects and probably longer lasting.
 
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algrove

Well-known member
So I guess I sold my IQ4150 because its files looked like big Sony A7R4 images. :cautious: Then I sold my A7R4 because I was never satisfied with my creative juices while using it. (n) My Fuji 100S also has a Sony sensor. Will I sell it because of the way the files look? Who knows. If the M11 has a Sony sensor will it bother me like others mention?

All Sony sensors are killing our creativity.:cry: Hey you IQ4150 owners better sell and get a P45+.

For me it's COVID that keeps my creative juices low since I'm a street guy first and landscape second.
 
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SrMphoto

Active member
Care to elaborate that snobbish "no"? I am talking from own experience and based on statements from people in the know. Not everyone there likes the fact that Leica stopped developing their own custom sensors.

I have a Leica SL and a Leica S - colour and DR are different to the point of making a clear difference in quality in my eyes. Not talking about S lenses or OOF look of the format. So I am curious to see how the M11 "looks" and "feels" in real life especially compared to the last generation of proprietary sensors / image processing pipelines. It might be better or just feel like a A7R Sony in a different body with built-in M adapter.

Different sensors with their respective "imaging pipelines" look different, even with C1 profile. And I also happen to own APO M 50, SX M 50 and a M10M; you can clearly see that the new higher resolution sensors show the ageing of the designs introduced more than 10 years ago (although when I bought the SX50 for my M9 I envisioned never selling the lens) and for that reason I also sold the NOCTI 50 0.95 M - I found it unusable in view of me starting to like more the aesthetic of S and APO lenses as I migrated to better equipment over time; I now like when the focus resolves a lot of details followed by a creamy fall-off with not a lot of aberrations and am considering selling my M-Summiluxes although one can make the case that these are now almost a new classic-modern aesthetic as opposed to the "clinical" latest and greatest.

And on the sensor - the reason for taking an off the shelf sensor with minor tweaks plus image processing pipeline via Maestro III is clearly increasing profitability per unit as commissioning again a new sensor (many millions in development costs) whose costs need to be spread across SL, M, Q and S over the lifetime of the products reduces profitability more than just taking a good Sony design, swapping the glass / filter layer and tweaking the image processing as much as possible to eek a proprietary "look" out Sony's sensors.

Looking forward to hearing how M10 / M240 users like the M11.

Best
Paul
The underlying silicon (likely by Sony, but not confirmed), does not have that much influence on color. The toppings (Bayer filter, the filtering glass, and its thickness), as well as firmware, have the most influence on colors and the look. The toppings are custom-made by Leica.
 

Paul Spinnler

Active member
So I guess I sold my IQ4150 because its files looked like big Sony A7R4 images. :cautious: Then I sold my A7R4 because I was never satisfied with my creative juices while using it. (n) My Fuji 100S also has a Sony sensor. Will I sell it because of the way the files look? Who knows. If the M11 has a Sony sensor will it bother me like others mention?

All Sony sensors are killing our creativity.:cry: Hey you IQ4150 owners better sell and get a P45+.

For me it's COVID that keeps my creative juices low since I'm a street guy first and landscape second.
I think the constant sarcasm kills this forum. I am just saying the Leica S files look different and more pleasing to me - ofc you can do and buy whatever you want.
 

algrove

Well-known member
No Sarcasm. It's a fact that Phase uses Sony sensors and I never hear anyone complaining about how the files look or that they look like an iPhone image. That part of this thread I did not start.

I have taken over 15000 Phase images with Sony sensors and like them. I have also taken over 5000 Fuji GFX images with Sony sensors and like them as well.

We are discussing this without even a half-way finalized profile as yet. If I recall it took a long time for the M10 profiles to come forth.
 
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