Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I spoke to him a few months ago and he said he still had, but we are approaching of course a time where SK lenses can be gone quickly … there was one on EBay Germany though
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Magic Four Series: The versatile SK 60 XL – laudatio on one of the best MFD lenses ever made
- Thread starter Paul Spinnler
- Start date
Reginald Fluggelding
Member
For one reason or another (looking for something else) I ended up on this old thread and reading this. I'm wondering why you say 'if they still have lens production"? They still make industrial lenses and a range of cinema lenses (which are relatively affordable). They already have lens designs so there is minimal development costs. Aside from the glass production side of it which they have setup already for their industrial and cinema lenses the lens housings are very (relatively) cheap and straightforward in the days of modern CNC technology. You don't have to set up tooling for production which will breakeven in the 10's of thousands of units anymore. You can even see on their site that it's possible to order customised lenses (industrial) so they already do small batch work.
I've heard people say a number of times it will never happen. I Like to think wishfully and imagine the more times I mention it the more likely something magical will happen: maybe even some kind of Japanese made versions like the Cosina Zeiss classic lenses however that arrangement worked (I think they make the Milvus and Otus lenses too anyway).
John Leathwick
Well-known member
Is there any reason why one of their industrial lenses designed for a large format sensor (e.g., Emerald 4/60) could not be fitted into a lens board and mounted on a technical camera in front of a back like a GFX? They claim to be useable over a wide range of working distances with performance suitable for high resolution sensors. They have no shutter but do have an aperture control. Is this just a case of a potential solution waiting to be tried, or is there some well known reason that it would not work?
-John
-John
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well I take Greiner’s word for it; if anyone knows the market for tech cam lenses by heart (he distributes wholesale Rosenstock HR and is the only SK Service centre left) it’s him; according to him no chance for those lenses to come back.
First off, to have a list item means you need to setup tooling and keep parts and even if you do a custom run minimum order batches are like 50 units plus setup etc and the per unit price would also be quite high as you’d have a small batch and with all the inflation since 2010s on labour, aluminium, glass you’d have a base price of a few grand per lens. No dealer has the money or willingness for the outlay required to pre finance say 50x4.5k. To make a decent margin on it you’d as a wholesaler add your 30% and final dealer another 15% and before you know it you have a 7-8k lens on your hand which you need to sell in larger quantities.
Greiner said unequivocally no chance. If you want to bet 200k on per lens on such an endeavour ofc that’s another topic.
P1 also shot down the plans for a 25mm Rosenstock large IC wide angle a few years ago by not willing to commit enough fixed orders from Rodenstock. They figured it’s not gonna be easy to sell a few hundred units. The minimum order size for Rodenstock is significantly higher - don’t remember how many but was around 400-500 to make it worthwhile for them.
They have so much business in B2B and military that they can’t do uncertain projects in high end photography.
This is why no matter what the final greats of SK: 28XL, 43XL, 60XL will not be made anymore; the 120 ASPH is also in that category, but my understanding is that DT once ordered a batch for repro and who knows if it comes back in CH for P1 at one point. For now, it is still extremely rare. The most rare of them all is the 28XL.
In Alpa mount not more than 50 were made ever and two are out (one destroyed and one an archival copy for Alpa).
In my view if you own any of these you should only sell if you are sure you won’t need it again. You might find them again, but prices will stay high given the fact that over time less and less will exist and that there’s no chance for a remake and on top they are still unique and extremely sharp and most likely also excellent on the new IQ5
First off, to have a list item means you need to setup tooling and keep parts and even if you do a custom run minimum order batches are like 50 units plus setup etc and the per unit price would also be quite high as you’d have a small batch and with all the inflation since 2010s on labour, aluminium, glass you’d have a base price of a few grand per lens. No dealer has the money or willingness for the outlay required to pre finance say 50x4.5k. To make a decent margin on it you’d as a wholesaler add your 30% and final dealer another 15% and before you know it you have a 7-8k lens on your hand which you need to sell in larger quantities.
Greiner said unequivocally no chance. If you want to bet 200k on per lens on such an endeavour ofc that’s another topic.
P1 also shot down the plans for a 25mm Rosenstock large IC wide angle a few years ago by not willing to commit enough fixed orders from Rodenstock. They figured it’s not gonna be easy to sell a few hundred units. The minimum order size for Rodenstock is significantly higher - don’t remember how many but was around 400-500 to make it worthwhile for them.
They have so much business in B2B and military that they can’t do uncertain projects in high end photography.
This is why no matter what the final greats of SK: 28XL, 43XL, 60XL will not be made anymore; the 120 ASPH is also in that category, but my understanding is that DT once ordered a batch for repro and who knows if it comes back in CH for P1 at one point. For now, it is still extremely rare. The most rare of them all is the 28XL.
In Alpa mount not more than 50 were made ever and two are out (one destroyed and one an archival copy for Alpa).
In my view if you own any of these you should only sell if you are sure you won’t need it again. You might find them again, but prices will stay high given the fact that over time less and less will exist and that there’s no chance for a remake and on top they are still unique and extremely sharp and most likely also excellent on the new IQ5
Reginald Fluggelding
Member
I imagine most of them don't have a large enough image circle, and they are probably optimised for a very specific distance or even wavelength. Many of the older models I have seen around were pretty much enlarger lenses but they all look pretty specific to industrial applications now.
Doppler9000
Active member
Worth a bump…Last night I was searching online for the CFV 100C that is rumored to be on the way
Reginald Fluggelding
Member
I think you might be overestimating the bill of materials somewhat. At trade prices you'd have tens of dollars worth of aluminium to start from (my 35XL weighs 355 g including the Cambo WRS mount and helical, I can't find the specs right now but even the larger 60XL couldn't be a lot heavier). Sure that's turned from a larger blank but we're still talking bugger all. Not sure about the glass but I think the processing and treatments are where the cost is at not the raw materials (save for stuff like fluorite, not sure what they use though). We are talking very small components so not a lot of space for storage. The labour, and now tariff are probably the key factor. They could make them in Japan — isn't that what happens with the Phase lenses — and get around the huge tariffs.
By your rationale I thought why would Schneider bother with Cine lenses, a much more competitive market. I just discovered that their new line of cine lenses is made by an outfit called Dulens (Hong Kong), and they "have been modified for Schneider-Kreuznach to match the ISCORAMA-style", so they don't seem to have a problem with outsourcing or licensing their brand. Those lenses are relatively cheap compared to a lot of other cine lenses ($10K for a set of three + an anamorphic adapter). I do a very small amount of motion work (I have quoted for more jobs than I shoot so have plenty of knowledge of what I can and can't rent: generally filmmakers don't own their equipment) and have never even seen SK lenses in the rental houses where Cooke, Zeiss, Arri (Zeiss), Canon, Angenieux, and now Sigma and a few new Chinese brands dominate (and the Chinese lenses are getting very good). In the land of high end still photography SK literally only have one (overpriced) competitor.
The story seems to be they only stopped making still lenses because of the problems with the 80MP + digital backs, and now we've got BSI (and will eventually have an IQ5 no doubt, so many cheaper IQ4's on the second hand market) + the new Hasselblad back and various mirrorless options there is a space they could take. Imagine the market just in China of wealthy photo enthusiasts. I doubt they'd have a problem selling more than 50. It'll just take someone with a bit of imagination. They already have the designs (wouldn't be rocket science updating the 35XL to match the others).
Wishful thinking once again, hopefully Greiner is wrong.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well I have it from the guy that's the global no.1 dealer in SK lenses, the only one with official service and replacement parts and the one who has a direct line to the management of both Rodenstock and SK. believe me I have pestered him over the years to do a re-run of CFs, the 43 and 60 XL. Some desktop analysis of what SK is doing doens't change the fact that they won't enter tech classic cam lenses anymore. They left the game mid 2010s when the MFD market was arguably at a high point and when the IQ4 came out it had big momentum before the pandemic. At any time they coudl have rentered had they thought it is worthwhile; in business it is also about utilization of capacity - they just might have many other projects which just are more lucrative at this stage ...
I do however think that they might do a new line of lenses for hte IQ5 with P1, but not their classic symmetric designs, but rather stuff like the recently launched tele lens.
In sum, Greiner repeatedly over the last years said no chance, too expensive to re-do he had made the maths for himself and if anyone has low risk to re-sell is him who has preorders for all SK greats.
There was also a project to relaunch the copal shutter, but the per cost price to break even within 2-3 years would have been beyond 1000 USD for a new shutter with the quotes from the manufacturers for a medium sized run of shutters, e.g. say 500-1000 units. Its the same with the SK tech cam lenses. You'll have to fork over a higher six figure sum for an initial batch - no one wants to do that in these times.
The 7-8k price fo a re-issue in a small batch is just the reality, unfortunately. Same with CFs - per unit price would be way too expensive. Both Greiner and Linhofstudio ran the numbers and concluded its not worthwhile. I've asked Linhofstudio many times to re-consider doing a limited run of CFs for the 43 and 60 XL ... no chance.
Reginald Fluggelding
Member
7–8K would be a great deal considering how much they are used. Also a $1K Copal shutter, brand new, not too bad, not when now it's easily $500 to get a used one, sight unseen, if you can find one. I have my fingers crossed the outfit making a new electronic shutter (Intrepid I think?) actually come out with something decent and high quality. X-shutter looks great but price prohibitive, doesn't fit a lot of lenses (like 35XL, or any 28), and eventually we will get global shutter, it's just a matter of time, then the X-shutters value will be the electronic control of aperture and closing the lens for calibration, both great to have but less important to me than the shutter.
Once again you/Greiner are probably right, but this is wishful thinking.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I spoke to Rodenstock I think 3 years ago about the prospect of a new lens. They told me they had a 25mm design which was shot down by P1 because they would have needed to commit to an initial preorder batch and a few hundred! over the course of the first 2-3 years, if I remember correctly. Also, since it is a retrofocus design with the newest tech the end retail price with Rodie, P1, Dealer margins would have been beyond 10k!
The Rodenstock manager asked me if I'd be willing to spend a similar or a bit lower amount of money for a 25mm 90 IC lens than the 138mm costs as the 25mm would have been a heavy and complex design.
All market participants (Cambo, P1, Alpa, Arca, Linhof) concluded that it is uncertain whether a next-gen Rodie HR UWA would sell in the hundreds if priced at 10k or beyond.
They also see the sales of the 138 ... which does not sell a lot.
So that's why we don't see new stuff. Rodenstock needs higher margins because they have enough products to work on in the b2b and defense side.
Defense pays 4m upfront for new projects, with high end photo you need to for years wait for the return and it is uncertain on top ... that's the issue. Inner competition from other projects relegating photography to the backseat.
The problem is that there’s just too many businesses in between needing their cut and the complexity involved in making lenses at the cutting edge in smaller batches (a few hundred over years max) makes it not too cheap to begin with; especially if you roll into the cost also R&D which can take years for new stuff.
A 5k lens from Rosenstock get a 20-30 markup and then another 15-20 percent markup and there you go you are in a range most young photographers just cannot justify.
The Rodenstock manager asked me if I'd be willing to spend a similar or a bit lower amount of money for a 25mm 90 IC lens than the 138mm costs as the 25mm would have been a heavy and complex design.
All market participants (Cambo, P1, Alpa, Arca, Linhof) concluded that it is uncertain whether a next-gen Rodie HR UWA would sell in the hundreds if priced at 10k or beyond.
They also see the sales of the 138 ... which does not sell a lot.
So that's why we don't see new stuff. Rodenstock needs higher margins because they have enough products to work on in the b2b and defense side.
Defense pays 4m upfront for new projects, with high end photo you need to for years wait for the return and it is uncertain on top ... that's the issue. Inner competition from other projects relegating photography to the backseat.
The problem is that there’s just too many businesses in between needing their cut and the complexity involved in making lenses at the cutting edge in smaller batches (a few hundred over years max) makes it not too cheap to begin with; especially if you roll into the cost also R&D which can take years for new stuff.
A 5k lens from Rosenstock get a 20-30 markup and then another 15-20 percent markup and there you go you are in a range most young photographers just cannot justify.
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rdeloe
Well-known member
That's kind of grim if you think about it. How can this kind of photography continue much longer if it's not economical to make key components of the system? I'm quite happy to pick through the remnants bin, but a lot of people want shiny and new.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Well we already see it with the new P1 glass - its well beyond 10k per lens. And Rodenstock HR new is also quite expensive if you look at today's prices.
At the same time used Rodenstock HR copal and AU have softened in pricing due to people exiting while SK Magic Four have stayed stable mostly.
New XT glass or new Rodie HR with X shutter is very expensive still - sometimes the only option for people wanting 1/1000 flash sync, metadata recording, for example ...
Not sure how many 138s are being sold, but at these prices it won't be too many, I think.
.... but ofc, this all does not take away anything from the fact that even a Sironar-S 135 is quite good on digital ...
At the same time used Rodenstock HR copal and AU have softened in pricing due to people exiting while SK Magic Four have stayed stable mostly.
New XT glass or new Rodie HR with X shutter is very expensive still - sometimes the only option for people wanting 1/1000 flash sync, metadata recording, for example ...
Not sure how many 138s are being sold, but at these prices it won't be too many, I think.
.... but ofc, this all does not take away anything from the fact that even a Sironar-S 135 is quite good on digital ...
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Doppler9000
Active member
Any chance a new, lower cost player could enter?
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I think P1 might release new lenses based on SK designs to be integrated into their XT and potentially new mirrorless camera platforms. Given that its then a "homebrew" lens lineup they should be cheaper, ie let's hope around the 6k mark per MFD lens with some special designs more, some lower end designs like say a 80 2.5 for 4k etc.
Rodenstock HR remains the benchmark for directly available large IC shiftable lenses, especially lenses which stay sharp even when shifted 2-3cm left right like anything up from 50mm and up and of course with their HR-W 90mm IC WA staples like the 32,40 ...
SK 28XL, 43XL, 60XL,120 ASPH will still remain the legendary optics they are – the final master stroke of technical camera lenses from the venerable manufacturer that is Schneider-Kreuznach... wish they'd come back ... we have never seen the super digitar version of the 35 XL which woiuld have been next naturally or the announced, but never produced 100 ASPH.
And the 28 XL? Absolute insanity of a lens - extremely sharp, symmetric ... geez. What were they thinking
if you've seen one of those in the flesh - its a sight to behold.
Rodenstock HR remains the benchmark for directly available large IC shiftable lenses, especially lenses which stay sharp even when shifted 2-3cm left right like anything up from 50mm and up and of course with their HR-W 90mm IC WA staples like the 32,40 ...
SK 28XL, 43XL, 60XL,120 ASPH will still remain the legendary optics they are – the final master stroke of technical camera lenses from the venerable manufacturer that is Schneider-Kreuznach... wish they'd come back ... we have never seen the super digitar version of the 35 XL which woiuld have been next naturally or the announced, but never produced 100 ASPH.
And the 28 XL? Absolute insanity of a lens - extremely sharp, symmetric ... geez. What were they thinking
if you've seen one of those in the flesh - its a sight to behold.
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wallpaperviking
Member
Just wondering how much front rise can be achieved, when you are doing a 2 x vertical stitch on the back?My go to lens, also the favourite, to the point that I'd prefer to stitch two vertical frames rather than swap 43 for the same field of view.
It is roughly the same focal length of 90mm in 6x7, most natural to our way of seeing, also a challenging focal length for interior work, in a good way it forces you to craft composition, and when you nail it, the rewards can be immense.
I use it for 90% of my work, now slimming down to 43, 60 and 120, never llked a non sk lens in the bag (rodie magenta 90mm), I'll vertically stitch with 120 if I need the 90mm look.
Luckily 28xl was way too wide for my liking, even the 35xl hasn't been touched since 43 arrived, I'll settle for the magic three
Thanks!
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
As per my FIRST POSTJust wondering how much front rise can be achieved, when you are doing a 2 x vertical stitch on the back?
Thanks!
, the unique thing, and why this lens is spectacular, really, is that for all current common systems you'll easily achieve 20+ sharp vertical rise. A Max tops out at 25mm, you'll get a sharp vertical rise with it.That's the one to get besides the 43 XL and the 120 ASPH.
You can essentially shift at liberty with it on an IQ4 and create enormous files. Its a joy to know that you can max out movements in all directions for compositional creativity.
Its natural perspective lends itself well for architecture and a wide array of subjects and with its IC you can get a very useful FoV unstitched and stitched. Ie stiched it is still not too wide to be impractical. The 43XL can be used for stitching, but here the allure is more the ultimate flexibility in architecture to shift freely, while the 60 XL begs to be used stitched for ultra high quality shots.
This bad boy on an IQ5 is most likely the highest resolution stitch lens besides the 90 HR SW and 138 HR SW lenses with the main point being that 60mm stitched is uber useful while 90 and 138 are still sort of tele.
Its a desert island lens and the IQ5 should give this one a solid price boost as there's literally no equivalent in the market for it.
And it looks like there will never be as well. Did I mention its tiny, fully rectilinear and does not need a CF on an IQ4 with LCC cast easily manageable in post?
This one and the 43XL and you can open an architectural photography practice with it and never worry about lenses anymore.
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wallpaperviking
Member
Thanks, cannot quite do the maths on this. At this stage, am looking to use the 33mm x 44mm GFX 100S sensor. If doing a 2 x portrait stitch on the rear to create a 1 x landscape image (4:3), how much "sharp" front rise is available?As per my FIRST POST
That's the one to get besides the 43 XL and the 120 ASPH.
You can essentially shift at liberty with it on an IQ4 and create enormous files. Its a joy to know that you can max out movements in all directions for compositional creativity.
Its natural perspective lends itself well for architecture and a wide array of subjects and with its IC you can get a very useful FoV unstitched and stitched. Ie stiched it is still not too wide to be impractical. The 43XL can be used for stitching, but here the allure is more the ultimate flexibility in architecture to shift freely, while the 60 XL begs to be used stitched for ultra high quality shots.
This bad boy on an IQ5 is most likely the highest resolution stitch lens besides the 90 HR SW and 138 HR SW lenses with the main point being that 60mm stitched is uber useful while 90 and 138 are still sort of tele.
Its a desert island lens and the IQ5 should give this one a solid price boost as there's literally no equivalent in the market for it.
And it looks like there will never be as well. Did I mention its tiny, fully rectilinear and does not need a CF on an IQ4 with LCC cast easily manageable in post?
This one and the 43XL and you can open an architectural photography practice with it and never worry about lenses anymore.
Also, will this work with a GFX 100S on a Universalis and still allow this combination to work? Am just wondering if I can possibly get away with a "one lens" setup...
Thanks!
rdeloe
Well-known member
If you want to create a 4:3 aspect ratio image with your 33mm x 44mm sensor, you need to be able to shift 12.75mm left and 12.75mm right in portrait. You may also need one in the middle but that's a function of the scene. A shift like that will require an image circle of 73mm -- which is not huge. A 645 lens that doesn't have a very "tight" image circle will give you that.Thanks, cannot quite do the maths on this. At this stage, am looking to use the 33mm x 44mm GFX 100S sensor. If doing a 2 x portrait stitch on the rear to create a 1 x landscape image (4:3), how much "sharp" front rise is available?
Also, will this work with a GFX 100S on a Universalis and still allow this combination to work? Am just wondering if I can possibly get away with a "one lens" setup...
Thanks!
By the way, you can figure out the equivalent angle of view by knowing that a shift of that type (12.75mm left and right on a 33mm x 44mm sensor) is 75% of the lens focal length. For example, if you set up with a 100mm lens and do that shift, you'll create an image that has the angle of view of a 75mm lens.
Assuming the image circle is large enough, whether or not you can shift that much with a GFX camera on an F-Universalis depends on the shape of the lens and its flange distance. If the rear end of the lens is inside the Rotafoot, you can only shift an amount determined by the diameter of the rear of the lens. As an example, a Schneider-Kreuznach APO-Digitar 47mm has a rear lens cell that is 43mm in diameter and is inside the Rotafoot by 2.60mm. You have a bit under 60mm of diameter inside the Rotafoot, so you can shift that lens a maximum of around 8mm in any direction. If you're combining movements (e.g., some rise, some shift, maybe some swing) you have less shift room.
Last thought: a lot of people think this is a great solution. I use it in emergencies, but in general I find it to be a finicky pain in the behind. "Your results may vary", as they say.
wallpaperviking
Member
Thanks Rob, that is extremely helpful!! Much appreciated!
So am specifically talking about the Schneider 60mm with its large 120mm image circle. With a 2 x portrait stitch, it could become a 45mm..
Any idea how this would fare on the Universalis? I could forgo the Rotafoot if it helped. Would prefer to keep it, as it sounds a lot more convenient...
Thanks again!
rdeloe
Well-known member
You are good to go on mechanical constraints. Here are the lens data.Thanks Rob, that is extremely helpful!! Much appreciated!
So am specifically talking about the Schneider 60mm with its large 120mm image circle. With a 2 x portrait stitch, it could become a 45mm..
Any idea how this would fare on the Universalis? I could forgo the Rotafoot if it helped. Would prefer to keep it, as it sounds a lot more convenient...
Thanks again!
And here's how that translates to GFX and F-Universalis. The important figure is highlighted in yellow: the rear of the lens will clear the inside of the bellows by 5.1mm.
However, you still can't use the whole image circle because the sensor in a GFX camera is deep inside a "cavity". The top edge of the cavity containing the sensor starts showing up in shifted images anywhere from 25mm to 30mm. It depends on the lens and the angle of the light rays. All of my shorter focal length lenses that are closer to the sensor are on the 25mm end of the range. My 100mm lenses (APO-Symmar, APO-Digitar) are on the long end. I would expect the 60XL will start showing hard vignetting from the sensor cavity closer to 25mm of shift.
Now, the good news is that you can exceed this mechanical vignetting threshold in flat stitching. I've successfully flat stitched much larger shifts that had a thick black bar of vignetting in some images. As long as the area of overlap has information from one of the images in the set, your stitching software should figure it out; Lightroom does it without issue. Importantly, you can use this technique even if you're not flat stitching, e.g., you need a single frame shifted 35mm -- just make sure that one has information in the overlap area. Stitch them together and crop out the part you need from the flat stitched file.