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MF direction

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Dave,

Thanks for making this clear! I always had the highest regard for Capture Integration.

On the other hand Lars obviously had a negative experience. I have some experience with a Minolta Dimage 7i overheating in sunny Budapest back in 2004, so I have seen that problem.

I can fully understand that this was not a commercial workshop, perhaps it could be seen as a marketing exercise. It seems that Lars get away from that workshop with a negative experience, a great pity for all involved.

I have a P45+ I bought privately and downloaded the manuals from the net. The back works fine and delivers great images. It performs essentially according to specifications.

I don't see any MFD magic with the P45+, but I have never been a believer in any magic. The P45+ delivers according to spec, not less but also not more.

The experience I have with the P45+ is that it is a bit tuned to protect highlights by not exposing fully ETTR when the histogram indicates near clipping, but well exposed images have decent shadow details. I would think that Lars was quite a bit from fully ETTR exposure, if so, lifting shadow detail may be a negative experience.

We need to know our imaging systems if we want to achieve optimal quality and that takes some learning.

The image below was my first real image with the P45+, it is one of my all times favourites. It was a great surprise I got it because thought I had a sync cable issue. I saw that sailboat coming and put up tripod, packed up camera from the bag and got a shot. Before that shoot I just had some testing done…


The info I have seen from CI has always been good. Good info without the hype, I always appreciated it… So Lars writing left me with some disturbance of mind, thanks for sharing your view on the issue.

Kind regards
Erik




Good morning everyone,

I would have responded earlier but my wife and I are on a much needed vacation celebrating our 10th anniversary this weekend. She tries to get me away once a year from the stress of owning a business, but alas, it keeps pulling you back in regardless of how you try to get away.

I am disturbed by this thread. And it’s not about the MF digital vs. DSLR commentary as those discussions have been going on for almost 20 years now. And I am certain that they will be going on for years and years to come. I am disturbed by how misleading and inaccurate the post is.

Since Mr. Vinberg felt the need to “share (his) experience and opinions based on those experience”, I feel that it is only fair that I am able to share mine as well.

* Regarding The Carmel “Anti-Workshop”

...
Dave Gallagher
CEO
Capture Integration
 
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jlm

Workshop Member
For christ sake erik, you don't need to overload your already typically long winded responses by quoting a post in it's entirety
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Maybe not central to the topic, but in Death Valley I yanked a tripod leg sending Dave's Cambo/IQ160/SK43 face down into the dirt AT HIS FEET and he did not kill me. I remain grateful to this day. Thank you, Dave.

Best,

Matt
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
I've found the comment by Mr Lars very disturbing and misleading. In the past, this comment would be warned or banned by the moderators as it is not a fair comment and causes damages to people. I am not surprised as GetDPI nowadays has changed. It's not as friendly/informative as before. It's getting closer and closer to LUL, better or worse. Just only an opinion from a long-time and royal member.
He was very biased. I used 4x5 before DSLR and MFD. If I have to start using the 4x5 again, it will take me a long time to get used to it, certainly it's not in few weeks. It also took me a long times (months) until I started to feel comfortable with the tech camera +CCD back. You have to master before you can appreciate it.
I've been a customer of CI since the IQ180 back first came out and cannot think any higher of this company.
 

Jager

New member
Thanks for the "rest of the story," Dave. Your "anti-workshop" sounds like the very best sort of fun. Wish I was closer!
 

jerome_m

Member
I've found the comment by Mr Lars very disturbing and misleading. In the past, this comment would be warned or banned by the moderators as it is not a fair comment and causes damages to people.
Even if I complained that Lars post was the fourth anti-MF rant this month, I would not call it "disturbing and misleading". MF cameras are, generally speaking, noticeably more quirky than cameras built in much, much larger series and debugging is obviously not as good. Also: from personal experience, the marketing in some equipment fairs is a bit heavy on the "we all belong to the same exclusive club" stance, so I can also understand that part of the post.

Therefore, in my opinion, there would be no basis for a moderator to act. I find it perfectly sufficient that Dave Gallagher posts a rebuttal and everybody is free to form their own opinion.
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
Even if I complained that Lars post was the fourth anti-MF rant this month, I would not call it "disturbing and misleading". MF cameras are, generally speaking, noticeably more quirky than cameras built in much, much larger series and debugging is obviously not as good. Also: from personal experience, the marketing in some equipment fairs is a bit heavy on the "we all belong to the same exclusive club" stance, so I can also understand that part of the post.

Therefore, in my opinion, there would be no basis for a moderator to act. I find it perfectly sufficient that Dave Gallagher posts a rebuttal and everybody is free to form their own opinion.
I just expressed my opinion. Although some people enjoy the thread like this, some people like me (I'm sure I'm not the only one) don't like it and feel it to be "disturbing and misleading" and wasting of time. You will read the same people "who belong to the same exclusive club" who keep commenting the same opinions in different threads in different websites (GetDPI and LUS). I respect all photographers who make good works no matter what the tools they use. That's why almost all my posts were photos, not comments. Never a single time, I've said bad words about people who use different types or brands of cameras, digital or films. I think it's stupid to do so.

I just said I don't like the current GetDPI as much as I did before. There is no question it's still the best forum for people who are interested in MFD. I know nothing lasts forever but I feel a little sad about it. It's used to be a forum where you came to get relaxed with a cup of coffee with friends, share photos, and learn a lot about MFD.
 
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AreBee

Member
Landscapelover,

I just expressed my opinion.
As did Lars - if you re-read the original post you will find that the content is almost entirely subjective.
 
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GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Landscapelover: I agree. The current Trumpian climate isn't the way things were. A lot more negativity and polarization of opinion here and not for the better recently.

Getdpi is headed the way of lula and hopefully not those other sites like dpreview but the absence of the mods in the MF section is noticeable. I put it down to shift in focus of Guy, Bob & Jack from MF but the site is poorer for it. I actually pay a little to support this place but I'm starting to wonder why.
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
Landscapelover: I agree. The current Trumpian climate isn't the way things were. A lot more negativity and polarization of opinion here and not for the better recently.

Getdpi is headed the way of lula and hopefully not those other sites like dpreview but the absence of the mods in the MF section is noticeable. I put it down to shift in focus of Guy, Bob & Jack from MF but the site is poorer for it. I actually pay a little to support this place but I'm starting to wonder why.
I am glad I'm not the only one who feel this way. It's sad to see GetDPI heading this way.
It's getting harder and harder to find interesting threads for MFD at GetDPI.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i don't thinks it's so dark. outside of a few, (actually more recent) contributors (and usually about techie issues), i find a lot here to applaud and have found my own point of view getting expanded, maverick though i may be.
 

Lars

Active member
1) There was a day of training on the gear before the workshop started. There were incredibly talented people to help with any questions that he might have had. Computer workstations were set up so we could download documents and Capture One to jump drives and hand them out to anyone who needed them. Unfortunately, this great opportunity was missed.
Dave, when I picked up the loaner gear you specifically said there was no manual. At no point when I picked up the gear did you or anyone else even hint to what you wrote above. So while there might have been a great opportunity missed, it was an opportunity that you missed, not I.

2) Mr. Vinberg neglected to point out that he was using the Phase One on a Technical camera for the first time. Who would pick up an 8x10 view camera and think that they can learn it in an hour? Using a digital back on a view camera or tech camera is not like “spraying” with a Nikon. This is not recommend by us or anyone in the industry. With this said, Mr. Vinberg also neglected to point out that our technician, Cam Williams, helped him set up the tech camera system and was right by his side to answer any questions from the beginning. In fact, here is a picture of the first actual shooting location on the first day where Cam is setting the equipment up for Lars while Lars is NOT paying attention. Another opportunity missed and proof that his statements were misleading at best.
After picking up the gear in S.F. at 2PM I was told that the workshop would rejoin at Land's End after 3PM. I went there and waited in the parking lot for almost two hours for someone to show up. Eventually - after falling asleep in my car from the long wait - I made contact. Walking the trail down to the water around 6PM I happened upon Cam. This was not planned but a coincidence, as there were multiple trails leading down. Cam was not "right there from the beginning". The communication between me and Cam was limited. After setting up the camera I asked him why the back complained about not firing a second exposure, Cam explained about the Alpa sync adapter and corresponding menu setting. Cam was kind enough to verify the camera setup, although he did not explain what, if anything, he changed. I took the opportunity to document the occasion. The fact that you snapped a few shot of me looking away does not mean I was not paying attention. Dave, you weren't there except for a few moments, so you are in no position to make these false claims.

3) "Yeah CCDs do that sometimes when overloaded with light, just power it off for a few minutes.". This statement is false and outright nonsensical. But let’s chalk this one up to an English translation and someone not understanding what is being said. I want to believe this at least. Listening to the problems as stated by Mr. Vinberg, my analysis was that the Phase One IQ3 60mp was left in the direct sun and the back overheated. Leaving any black metal electronics in the direct sun to bake is a bad idea. Anyone lose an iPhone this way? My daughter did and she was not happy about it. : ) I can actually see where this can be misconstrued. But if you are confused, then don't post a direct quote that is not correct.
The quote in the paragraph above might not be 100% correct word by word but that is indeed what I was told. CCDs can be overwhelmed by light, and they need a few minutes powered off to recover or reset. There was of course no English translation involved, as the entire conversation was in English. I do no think there was any understanding issues as you seemed to perfectly understand the issue, and it seemed that the fix was very obvious to you - which indicates that its not an uncommon problem.

Your "analysis" is completely off. Time of day was between 5:30PM to 6PM according the exposures that came out of the camera while I tried to get the live view working. Conditions were almost completely overcast, and slightly on the windy and chilly side, feet from the cold Pacific waters. A better analysis would have guessed that when I enabled live view the aperture of the lens was wide open which overwhelmed the CCD. As I understand it from our discussion that evening, that's likely what triggered the problem. To show the conditions, here is a capture made at the time when the CCD malfunctioned. Obviously this is not conditions where overheating from sunlight would be an issue. you were there in Carmel that afternoon so when we discussed this in the evening you would have been fully aware that heat issues from sunlight would have been unlikely, so it's a bit odd that you are making that claim now.



4) Laughing at a customer. My wife and my employees often ask me why I have so much patience when it comes to clients as compared to them. And admittedly, it’s not even close. I truly need to do better by both my wife and my employees, but I am working on it. :) I work very hard to have the utmost respect and patience for both potential and current clients. If I had known that Mr. Vinberg was so “sh#% scared” to talk to me that he was thinking about “quitting his job and moving to a foreign country” I would not have laughed at his stressful situation. Secondly, the reason why I laughed is that Lars thought he had damaged the camera by taking the protective rear cap off the sensor and exposing it to daylight. I found this funny and yes I laughed. I want to state that Lars laughed along with me at this moment and I didn’t see any sign of an issue. But importantly, I am not above reproach. I make mistakes. And if I would have known that this would have caused any form of distress then I would have quickly apologized. Furthermore, Mr. Vinberg and I have shared multiple e-mails since the event and this was never brought up. This makes no sense to me.

If I have done anything in any manner to upset someone, I implore them to speak to me directly so they can personally understand the man that I am and the company that I run. You will then have a strong perspective change at judging me and my character. However, not telling me personally how you feel when given multiple chances, then going online to a forum, and disparaging me publicly makes me question everything that you share about any subject and this post. Trust is lost.

Sorry, but this is me “sharing my experiences and opinions”.

Dave Gallagher
CEO
Capture Integration
I wrote

Laughing at a possible customer, well, that's a separate discussion between me and Dave - I'm sure he meant no harm, but considering the circumstances it will be a while before I forget.
Dave,

I repeat - I'm sure you meant no harm. To you, this was as obvious as inserting a battery. Had I known what questions to ask Cam when he was nearby on that first evening then perhaps this episode could have been avoided. The problem then, obviously, is knowing what questions to ask before you know what issues might arise.

However, you are clearly attempting to shift the blame for the malfunctioning back on me. You insinuate that I am not asking the right questions, that I do not understand plain English, that I am not paying attention. Each of these criticisms are incorrect and unfounded. Summarized, they add up to something a far more personal than me mentioning that you laughed at me for missing what might be obvious to you. You could have simply responded that it was an unfortunate event and left it at that.

-Lars
 

stephengilbert

Active member
Lars, you too "could have simply responded that it was an unfortunate event and left it at that."

I've occasionally had problems with photo equipment that wasn't functioning as it should. I didn't find it necessary to trash the manufacturer (Leica, Sony, and even Phase) on a website. I contacted the dealer and got the problem resolved. I concluded that the issue I had needed to be fixed, but not that the manufacturer or dealer was a failure.

Of course, these were items that I paid for, not loaners provided to me gratis.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Lars,

After reading your subsequent posts, I'm really surprised and actually quite taken aback by your comments now.

First of all, CI in Carmel (aka "Pigs" and sometimes "Pigs in a Blanket" --which makes Dave *wince*) is a pseudo-workshop if you will, with an emphasis on like-minded photographers getting together to shoot, share, enjoy, learn---and have fun. Its not a "normal workshop" by any means. In fact, Don Libby and I often warn people if you don't have a sense of humor, you're best staying at home. (search these forums on past Pigs events and you get the idea). The most formal aspect is the C1 Pro class. Over the years, we've been fortunate to have CI sponsor the event providing attendees with the opportunity to try some of the latest and greatest in medium format equipment. Our out of pocket costs always exceed the CI in Carmel (or other location) fee that is collected. Don and I, the CI crew, and the Phase crew have a lot of fun at this event, and really work hard to make sure everyone has a good time. That camaraderie is what its really all about.

Although Dave delivered my new IQ3 100MP digital back at this year's CI in Carmel, I did not set up my rig a single time during the weekend. I spent the entire weekend with Don and the CI and Phase One support crew jumping around checking on people. What I'm getting at here is that Dave Gallagher isn't the only funny looking guy helping out. If you had any difficulties whatsoever, I should have hoped you felt comfortable approaching me or anyone else with questions or anything. But you didn't. There is an incredible number of very talented photographers that attend this event every year. No egos. All are friendly, approachable, and a wealth of knowledge. Some, like Graham Welland, have enough equipment to open their own camera stores. :ROTFL: But it also doesn't seem like you approached anyone and kept your frustrations to yourself. Until now. :confused:

What puzzles me more is that a day or so after the CI in Carmel event, you felt comfortable enough to call me and then visit me in Carmel. Yet, you still never mentioned having any difficulties with the equipment, other than losing a small Alpa cable piece (*ouch* for sure being that it is Alpa). No offense taken, but I hope the opportunity provided you with some smiles and at least an affirmation of what works for you.

You're a good photographer that is adept with an 8x10 camera, and you seem to really enjoy that process, tedious as it may be to others. Quite frankly, you're the odd bird out, and that's perfectly okay. (Let's be honest here. How many others have developed their own digital imaging software?). Given that, I don't think that any MFDBs have much of a chance to make you grin and giggle. It didn't work for you. Simply shoot what you like and leave it at that. And really that's the way it should be for anyone: Buy what you want. Shoot what you like. And respect other's decisions as to what gear makes them giggle like a school girl. (yeah, I too tire of the MFDB dribble, particularly from those at LL that don't shoot MFDBs anyway).

:) Ken
 

Lars

Active member
Ken,

I did approach Dave (and I think Cam) about the live view issue with the CCD back, a few hours after it happened.
The next morning they insisted that I swap the CCD back for a CMOS back. I thought I did mention the CCD issue to you but perhaps it was someone else.

My original intent with this thread was to have a discussion around the increasingly competitive market.
Obviously that didn't work.
I have asked the moderator to remove the entire thread.

Anyways, thanks for hosting the non-workshop, it was fun.
-Lars
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
I forgot to mention the famous world-class (in my mind:loco:) BBQ smoked baby back ribs----you liked the ribs, right? :ROTFL:

:thumbup: ken
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
im just not sure how to respond about the GetDPI. I'm no longer shooting MF so my focus is not here and I have been basically been ignored from outside the folks here since I left. Not a call , not are you dead or alive. Jack and Bob are not here as well but your all adults and should know how to handle yourselfs. Plus if you feel GetDPI is slipping why have none of you sent us a PM and expressed your feelings. This is on you folks too. I'm a working PRo I need to pay attention on that level as well. All mods have jobs or businesses as well and Hobbes for some turn to other things, this is natural changes for folks. I was asked to delete this but I feel I should not. We all have opinions and they should be respected for those opinions even if they run opposite of your beliefs. Final statement I left MF because I had too , I have had a wife with 3 different cancers over the last 6 years. This was not by choice to sell it all but I feel extremely dropped out from the folks that shared my passion for it. Like I said are you dead or alive Guy and one reason I did not go to this particular venue. This is not about the members here but the industry which I totally supported .
 
The theme of this thread has been sad from the start for grown men, saying the files from the new 100mp phase are crap is obviously a load of bs, people need to be held accountable when bad naming a person and their business on the internet, sounds like OP has hurt feelings and needs to move on, I agree that this forum has changed but there are still many good threads with people who know their stuff, there are a heap of pros using phase ones in the field and all I've heard are great things and the prints look incredible that I've seen in galleries.
 

thomas

New member
That someone who handled a certain system for the first time feels entitled to draw bold conclusions about this system and to think about its position and future in the market is an embarrassment that can hardly be outdone and shows an all through amateurish attitude. What a pain to read through all this BS ...
 
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