MFD 2025 – state of the industry and outlook

[Paratom]

Leica takes its time, they just had the most successful year in their history. And they do all on their own in their HQ, including production. It'll be worth the wait.

A new system is a gift, you can only expect a new mount every few decades, to be honest ...

I entered the S system when it was new and paid a lot of money for all those lenses, same with the cl, both still work but both are old systems. New products from Leica in 2024 were rebaged sigma lenses for double price. I trust more in the sl system and M system than another new s system. But Hey, maybe I will become week anyways, owning all thisM!sl and s glass.
But for now I prefer to have a modern camera and lenses in my hands and shoot it Instead for waiting for something which might come one day. Still I love and use many of the Leica products.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I entered the S system when it was new and paid a lot of money for all those lenses, same with the cl, both still work but both are old systems. New products from Leica in 2024 were rebaged sigma lenses for double price. I trust more in the sl system and M system than another new s system. But Hey, maybe I will become week anyways, owning all thisM!sl and s glass.
But for now I prefer to have a modern camera and lenses in my hands and shoot it Instead for waiting for something which might come one day. Still I love and use many of the Leica products.

Well your're in the best possible position, literally.

Essentially you have no glass upfront cost and you'll benefit from the ultimate Leica camera experience - ie best EVF, highest res, best colour, etc.

I sold my SL in anticipation of the S4 and will most likely stick with M12M and S4 - S4 covering all colour bodies; the S4 will not be THAAT much bigger compared to the SL which makes the SL3 a bit obsolete in that regard. The sensor will only be 44x33 ish, which doesn't lead to a humongous body difference if they take SL3 tech, improve EVF etc.

So the things to keep are:

+ M: Summiluxes, Noctiluxes, APO 35, 50
+ SL: APO SL glass
+ S: All glass

Then bit by bit you can buy a new S4 optic, but IMHO any Leica aficionado with spare cash will jump on the S4, especially because its highly likely that it'll be the only body with autofocus M glass + lens specific in camera corrections ...

If you own Leica bodies, you can just upgrade for a tiny bit bigger body and cross-finance it by dumping all colour bodies, like the SL3 which should still be like 4.5k by the time the S4 hits.

The APO SL lenses will naturally be smaller than the S4 APO lenses, so there's a good reason to keep them still.

 

[Paratom]

Paul,
lets see and if there will be a reason to switch back from xcd-system.
Tonight with x2d and 20-35 at -15 C.

 

[ThdeDude]

Silicon wafers are circular, and its my understanding that 3:2 rectangles can be packed more efficiently on a circular wafer than 4:5 rectangles. This means more sensors per wafer, which directly impacts manufacturing costs. ...

Yes, this makes sense. Thx for the explanation.

 

[ThdeDude]

...
And the 3:2 ratio provides a good compromise for both landscape and portrait orientations. It's wide enough for landscapes but not so wide that it becomes awkward when rotated for portraits, ... LF people prefer 5:4 and do not find it awkward for portraits. I've grown accustomed to 5:4.

That's why 4:3 was in many ways the perfect compromise between 3:2 and 4:5!

 

[Jon Warwick]

I sold my SL in anticipation of the S4 and will most likely stick with M12M and S4 - S4 covering all colour bodies; the S4 will not be THAAT much bigger compared to the SL which makes the SL3 a bit obsolete in that regard. The sensor will only be 44x33 ish, which doesn't lead to a humongous body difference if they take SL3 tech, improve EVF etc.

I’ve been toying with what to do with my current systems (owning both GFX100S and M11) ….I was leaning towards selling both the GFX and M11 in exchange for an SL3, because I now prefer a true in-built EVF over rangefinder, especially for using the histogram, and prefer the files off both the M11 / SL3 over the GFX. Maybe I will wait a bit longer to see if an S4 materialises though ……a bit like you, I’d likely want to stick to also owning a Monochrom, the acutance, lack of aliasing and tonality off those sensors is gorgeous

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I’ve been toying with what to do with my current systems (owning both GFX100S and M11) ….I was leaning towards selling both the GFX and M11 in exchange for an SL3, because I now prefer a true in-built EVF over rangefinder, especially for using the histogram, and prefer the files off both the M11 / SL3 over the GFX. Maybe I will wait a bit longer to see if an S4 materialises though ……a bit like you, I’d likely want to stick to also owning a Monochrom, the acutance, lack of aliasing and tonality off those sensors is gorgeous

It only makes sense to get an SL3, if you are focused on MFD, if you get it used for the 5k mark.

That way you can still unload it for that or a bit less when the S4 comes.

Due to the uncertainty whether they go with 100 MPX or wait a tiny bit longer for the 811 Sony chip, it could materialize this or next year. I kinda get it if you are about to release a system and Sony says here you go there’s our 180 megapixel sensor that you wait

 

[Jon Warwick]

It only makes sense to get an SL3, if you are focused on MFD, if you get it used for the 5k mark.

That way you can still unload it for that or a bit less when the S4 comes.

Not sure what currency you’re referring to (EUR?) and how much that equates vs new price, but regardless, so far, the best prices that I’ve personally seen recently in approved UK stores (with warranty etc) for an immaculate but used SL3 are still c 85% of the new price. I’ll probably just ditch the GFX for now, I keep gravitating to using the M11 and its Visoflex, simply because I so often prefer the rendering of the Leica files over the GFX, and after a lot of back-to-back photos of identical scenes, I don’t feel that I’m losing much at all in terms of fine detail capture for 40x30” prints, despite the 60mp vs 100mp difference. It might be “only” 60mp, but with a really good APO lens and tripod etc, the M11 (and SL3) extract a heck of a lot of detail to my eyes.

 

[Paratom]

I’ve been toying with what to do with my current systems (owning both GFX100S and M11) ….I was leaning towards selling both the GFX and M11 in exchange for an SL3, because I now prefer a true in-built EVF over rangefinder, especially for using the histogram, and prefer the files off both the M11 / SL3 over the GFX. Maybe I will wait a bit longer to see if an S4 materialises though ……a bit like you, I’d likely want to stick to also owning a Monochrom, the acutance, lack of aliasing and tonality off those sensors is gorgeous

SL3 is my main flexible system, it can do most of the things with 95%.IQ, speed, flexibility,...
On a SL3 you can use zooms or primes, wides or Tele (for example 70200/90280 Signa 500/5.6), you have phase AF so you can do sports if it doesn't get too too fast etc.
I dont believe a MF system can give you that flexibility. For me medium format is when I want to pace a little slower and reach max. IQ.
So...even if you get a S4 one day you might want a SL3 for tele and speed. However if the S4 will come close to SL3 speed... could be quite interesting and flexible.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

SL3 is my main flexible system, it can do most of the things with 95%.IQ, speed, flexibility,...
On a SL3 you can use zooms or primes, wides or Tele (for example 70200/90280 Signa 500/5.6), you have phase AF so you can do sports if it doesn't get too too fast etc.
I dont believe a MF system can give you that flexibility. For me medium format is when I want to pace a little slower and reach max. IQ.
So...even if you get a S4 one day you might want a SL3 for tele and speed. However if the S4 will come close to SL3 speed... could be quite interesting and flexible.

Well you'll have an adapter for SL glass in the new S4; so speed and AF will be the same.

Re S4 glass, the only difference in AF speed may be that (its a an optics design question too) there's bigger mass of optical groups to be moved around, alongside the next-gen AF motors they'll use, so we will see.

The SL glass will be able to be used on a larger crop on the S4, so actually there's really no reason to stick with an SL3 if you can afford an S4 and are ok with a bit bigger size. 44x33 would be for example almost a perfect square 36x33 crop which would be completely lossless based on the SL2 optics which are all F2.

So the reason to keep SL glass is also that you'll have a larger crop, same AF speed and F2 in an uncompromising package.

My best guess is that the primary reason to go for the SL would then be that its like 7k instead of say 14k for the S4.

 

[Paratom]

Well you'll have an adapter for SL glass in the new S4; so speed and AF will be the same.

Re S4 glass, the only difference in AF speed may be that (its a an optics design question too) there's bigger mass of optical groups to be moved around, alongside the next-gen AF motors they'll use, so we will see.

The SL glass will be able to be used on a larger crop on the S4, so actually there's really no reason to stick with an SL3 if you can afford an S4 and are ok with a bit bigger size. 44x33 would be for example almost a perfect square 36x33 crop which would be completely lossless based on the SL2 optics which are all F2.

So the reason to keep SL glass is also that you'll have a larger crop, same AF speed and F2 in an uncompromising package.

My best guess is that the primary reason to go for the SL would then be that its like 7k instead of say 14k for the S4.

Do you think the S4 will have phase af?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Do you think the S4 will have phase af?

I don't know about that, but given its not intended as a digital back primarily and given it has been used in the SL3, I would assume yes.

For high end tech cams Phase will remain the one and only best choice: highest res, pure-play back, no PDAF shenanigans.