MFDB skin retouch

[Krosavcheg]

I haven't been shooting with my IQ160 as much as I would have wanted for various reasons.
Just had few model sessions here and there and I noticed that my retouching techniques carried over from 135 format experience don't really yield acceptable (to me) results.

From what I can see, MFDB captures the fantastic level of detail as well as tone. (Un)fortunately(?) it tends to pick up sub-surface tonal shifts (sub epidermic pigmentation, blood vessels, discolouration, etc)that during dodge&burn tend to shift towards orange in brights and magenta-mauve in darks.
Though even D&B on the fine detail will essentially produce same effect. Additionally, skin tends to be very yellowish.

So far I shot on location with direct natural light (I like the contrasty lighting), that might explain the tonality. However, just few days ago I shot with studio strobes in a controlled light environment and results exhibited exact properties I described.

Most likely explanation is of course that I am using IQ/Photoshop combo similar to using a laptop to prop up a door.

Just wondering if anyone could point me in a right direction so I can investigate further.

Best Regards

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I am dabbling around a bit with skin colour, too. Just to say, I am mostly a landscape photographer, but I have dabbled about a bit with studio type photography.

This time I just wanted a shoot of my Götcshmann slide projector and added myself for scale, but that gave me the opportunity to work a bit with skin tones.

The results I got with Lightroom and Capture One wheres like this:


Top one is Lightroom and bottom is Capture One.

Lightroom settings:


White balance was taken of ColorChecker, light grey patch. I used a home made DCP Colour Profile with LR.

With C1 it was a bit more comlex. It seems ColorChecker WB is not very useful with C1. Si I used WB for flash, with "Phase One P45+ Flash - Easy Gray".

Lightroom can display 'Lab' values for the colour picker, and that is a godbless. I have taken a few sample reading of the back side of my hand and could use that readings to adjust the image based on Lab values.


Finally, here are the starting point images (after doing a reset on both Capture One and LR CC). That may indicate that my defaults in LR are more preferable to me than the defaults in C1…


Best regards
Erik

I haven't been shooting with my IQ160 as much as I would have wanted for various reasons.
Just had few model sessions here and there and I noticed that my retouching techniques carried over from 135 format experience don't really yield acceptable (to me) results.

From what I can see, MFDB captures the fantastic level of detail as well as tone. (Un)fortunately(?) it tends to pick up sub-surface tonal shifts (sub epidermic pigmentation, blood vessels, discolouration, etc)that during dodge&burn tend to shift towards orange in brights and magenta-mauve in darks.
Though even D&B on the fine detail will essentially produce same effect. Additionally, skin tends to be very yellowish.

So far I shot on location with direct natural light (I like the contrasty lighting), that might explain the tonality. However, just few days ago I shot with studio strobes in a controlled light environment and results exhibited exact properties I described.

Most likely explanation is of course that I am using IQ/Photoshop combo similar to using a laptop to prop up a door.

Just wondering if anyone could point me in a right direction so I can investigate further.

Best Regards

 

[Krosavcheg]

Erik!

Thank you very much, I hope you didn't go through all this trouble just for this!

What I see is that your LR is closer to what I get in C1. The screenshot of the lab values you measured is pretty much in the ballpark of the tones I deal with during retouch, perhaps a little more towards purple.

Previously I used ACR to import directly into PS, reducing sharpening, contrast and saturation as I would add those later using corrective layers (Selective Colour, and BW in Luminance mode amongst others) + Luminosity masks.

With C1 process changes somewhat where stripping this information and exporting to TIFF for further editing seems to make images rather bland.
Maybe I should try LR and see where it takes me.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I was looking into this already, so it is nice to be able to discuss…

Two points worth making:

1. I am pretty much familiar with Lightroom workflow. Have something like 90 000 images in Lightroom, so I have a strong incentive to find a workflow that handles MFD well within Lightroom.
2. I have essentially used my own profiles with MFD since the day I bough a P45+. Started using Adobe DNG Profile Editor but switched to Anders Torger's DCamProf since it was available for testing.

Adobe DNG Profile editor lets you generate a decent profile from a ColorCccker shot and it allows yo to adjust it to taste. But there are some caveats…

Anders Torger will have a GUI version of DCamProf in a few months. I am sure to buy it…

Best regards
Erik

Erik!

Thank you very much, I hope you didn't go through all this trouble just for this!

What I see is that your LR is closer to what I get in C1. The screenshot of the lab values you measured is pretty much in the ballpark of the tones I deal with during retouch, perhaps a little more towards purple.

Previously I used ACR to import directly into PS, reducing sharpening, contrast and saturation as I would add those later using corrective layers (Selective Colour, and BW in Luminance mode amongst others) + Luminosity masks.

With C1 process changes somewhat where stripping this information and exporting to TIFF for further editing seems to make images rather bland.
Maybe I should try LR and see where it takes me.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I haven't been shooting with my IQ160 as much as I would have wanted for various reasons.
Just had few model sessions here and there and I noticed that my retouching techniques carried over from 135 format experience don't really yield acceptable (to me) results.

From what I can see, MFDB captures the fantastic level of detail as well as tone. (Un)fortunately(?) it tends to pick up sub-surface tonal shifts (sub epidermic pigmentation, blood vessels, discolouration, etc)that during dodge&burn tend to shift towards orange in brights and magenta-mauve in darks.
Though even D&B on the fine detail will essentially produce same effect. Additionally, skin tends to be very yellowish.

So far I shot on location with direct natural light (I like the contrasty lighting), that might explain the tonality. However, just few days ago I shot with studio strobes in a controlled light environment and results exhibited exact properties I described.

Most likely explanation is of course that I am using IQ/Photoshop combo similar to using a laptop to prop up a door.

Just wondering if anyone could point me in a right direction so I can investigate further.

Best Regards

Hi Krosovcheg -

It might be helpful for the group to have some more details with regard to exactly how and with what you are dodging and burning, and some image examples might also be beneficial.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[Krosavcheg]

Hi,

I was looking into this already, so it is nice to be able to discuss…

Two points worth making:

1. I am pretty much familiar with Lightroom workflow. Have something like 90 000 images in Lightroom, so I have a strong incentive to find a workflow that handles MFD well within Lightroom.
2. I have essentially used my own profiles with MFD since the day I bough a P45+. Started using Adobe DNG Profile Editor but switched to Anders Torger's DCamProf since it was available for testing.

Adobe DNG Profile editor lets you generate a decent profile from a ColorCccker shot and it allows yo to adjust it to taste. But there are some caveats…

Anders Torger will have a GUI version of DCamProf in a few months. I am sure to buy it…

Best regards
Erik

Erik

I abandoned Lightroom pretty much since they pulled tethered support for EOS5D (Classic). In addition, for a long time I did not trust software to manage my photos - I am more of an old school managing everything manually (read: control freak) and especially don't trust Adobe...

Very curious about Torger's software. Thank you for bringing this up!!

 

[Krosavcheg]

Hi Krosovcheg -

It might be helpful for the group to have some more details with regard to exactly how and with what you are dodging and burning, and some image examples might also be beneficial.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Steve

Thank you very much for your reply.
Here is an example of the image I was working on the other day.

Nothing too aggressive, but it exhibits the tonality I was talking about in the original post:

Used frequency separation followed by micro d&b and some fairly light global d&b for added highlights/shadows. D&B using a 50% neutral grey level in Soft Light mode in Photoshop.

I believe some retoucher once mentioned that using 50% grey filled layer can cause hue shifts and recommended using a curves layer instead, since it prevented the d&b from passing curve boundaries...
I never really used it, since I didn't quite need to in past, but perhaps it's a viable workaround?

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Torger's DCamProf supports both DCP and ICC for Capture One. Generating ICC-s for C1 is a bit more job.

Most programs support DCP profiles. ICC is not really intended for capture, so it cannot be a generic solution. DCP specifies a method of conversion and supplies nearly all the data needed, so DCP can be more generic. So you should be able to use Iridient, AccuRaw and RawTherapee and have the same interpretation of colour.

Best regards
Erik

Erik

I abandoned Lightroom pretty much since they pulled tethered support for EOS5D (Classic). In addition, for a long time I did not trust software to manage my photos - I am more of an old school managing everything manually (read: control freak) and especially don't trust Adobe...

Very curious about Torger's software. Thank you for bringing this up!!

 

[Krosavcheg]

Hi,

Torger's DCamProf supports both DCP and ICC for Capture One. Generating ICC-s for C1 is a bit more job.

Most programs support DCP profiles. ICC is not really intended for capture, so it cannot be a generic solution. DCP specifies a method of conversion and supplies nearly all the data needed, so DCP can be more generic. So you should be able to use Iridient, AccuRaw and RawTherapee and have the same interpretation of colour.

Best regards
Erik

Erik

Thank you for the tip. I actually tried RawTheapee with mixed results. Probably should have a little more time with it.
As far as C1 as concerned, the ICC profile generation is fairly straight forward in terms of available options, though as you say it does take time and patience to get it right.

If you would generate profile, would you set up lighting conditions close to ideal? Say for a controlled light shoot or available light shoot?

Regards

 

[MrSmith]

Skin/Beauty retouching is a dark art and i doubt there any specialists on here (i may be wrong) if you are already using the frequency separation technique then you are probably well advanced already.

Skin is something i don’t get involved in as i only do retouch for still life and some landscape but you say you have tried a selective colour layer, i’m surprised the didn’t work?
i do have one piece of advice and thats if you are adjusting saturation and are likely to clip a channel then use the saturation control in a vibrance adjustment layer as it works differently to that in an HSB adjustment and will hold some value in the channel that is about to clip, stops the posterisation and edges of tonal change looking ‘brittle’.

also i have been using these luminosity mask actions from Zoe Noble for my product retouch, saved me a lot of time, might be useful
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mjkt2gp5bme1o6w/Zoe%20Noble%20Luminosity%20Masks.atn?dl=0

 

[Krosavcheg]

Skin/Beauty retouching is a dark art and i doubt there any specialists on here (i may be wrong) if you are already using the frequency separation technique then you are probably well advanced already.

Skin is something i don’t get involved in as i only do retouch for still life and some landscape but you say you have tried a selective colour layer, i’m surprised the didn’t work?
i do have one piece of advice and thats if you are adjusting saturation and are likely to clip a channel then use the saturation control in a vibrance adjustment layer as it works differently to that in an HSB adjustment and will hold some value in the channel that is about to clip, stops the posterisation and edges of tonal change looking ‘brittle’.

also i have been using these luminosity mask actions from Zoe Noble for my product retouch, saved me a lot of time, might be useful
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mjkt2gp5bme1o6w/Zoe%20Noble%20Luminosity%20Masks.atn?dl=0

Great tip. Will definitely try!

Selective colour layer gave me a bit of a problem, since you work with RGB+CMY+dark/mid/light - all good if you use Canon which biases towards Reds - red/yellow separation is easy to bring together and mask. The (problem??) with CCD is it errs in Orange which is a bit trickier to adjust - hence the post.
Otherwise it is a true pleasure to be able to push blues/greens into extremely dark values without seeing Canon's blotching.

I am using Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks, but haven't yet worked with saturation - perhaps it's time to try.
Is there any reason you prefer Zoe's ones? Would be interesting to have a look.

Maybe it would also be beneficial to switch to LAB mode, rather than working in RGB?

Regards

 

[DrakeJ]

You might need to change the techniques you're using to retouch skin.

First off, to get more even skin tones Capture One's built in skin tones tool is fantastic. Especially using a high resolution image your IQ160 produces. It allows you to select the exact skin tone you want and then even out a large area.

If you do that, I find that having to use a hue/saturation clipping layer ontop of the dodge/burn layer is not really required.

The preferable technique I use however is D&B with curves layer set to luminosity so the color tonality won't be altered (in theory). Try that technique and see if it solves your problem. If you need to, use a hue/saturation clipping layer ontop of your D&B-layer to get rid of your issue.

 

[MrSmith]

Is there any reason you prefer Zoe's ones? Would be interesting to have a look.

purely stumbled upon them by chance from an amateur photography site, previously i was selecting by colour range which wasn’t ideal.
i like how there is an action fro deleting the masks after you have used them.

i do occasionally trawl youtube for techniques if i have the time, most i find not much use or rudimentary but some make it into the arsenal.

i’m really into look up tables and using 2 opposites to limit each others effect (like soft warming look/crisp winter look) and adjusting opacity to get something subtle, and maybe combined with a luminosity mask to put a cool look into the shadows for a colder look but leaving the rest of the image untouched.

it’s always interesting to see how others work as you often pick a technique up or show them a quicker/better way of doing something.
i’m amazed at how many good retouchers don’t know about holding down ALT when adjusting levels shows you exactly where you are clipping and they spend ages going over with the eyedropper to check!:facesmack:

 

[Krosavcheg]

You might need to change the techniques you're using to retouch skin.

First off, to get more even skin tones Capture One's built in skin tones tool is fantastic. Especially using a high resolution image your IQ160 produces. It allows you to select the exact skin tone you want and then even out a large area.

If you do that, I find that having to use a hue/saturation clipping layer ontop of the dodge/burn layer is not really required.

The preferable technique I use however is D&B with curves layer set to luminosity so the color tonality won't be altered (in theory). Try that technique and see if it solves your problem. If you need to, use a hue/saturation clipping layer ontop of your D&B-layer to get rid of your issue.

Joakim

One technique I used, is to create a curve layer in luminosity mode with black mask, paint highlights and then blur them (for oiled skin for instance).
Thank you for the tips! I never actually thought of adding an HSL clipping layer on top - brilliant! Though I am not that good with clipping layer logic yet - I tried the various masked layers as clipping with various success. Which mode would you add it in?

As for skin tone in C1 - I constantly fail with it - I am not sure understand it right yet. Either that, or no matter how I try the colour wheel nothing changes in the image....

 

[Krosavcheg]

purely stumbled upon them by chance from an amateur photography site, previously i was selecting by colour range which wasn’t ideal.
i like how there is an action fro deleting the masks after you have used them.

i do occasionally trawl youtube for techniques if i have the time, most i find not much use or rudimentary but some make it into the arsenal.

i’m really into look up tables and using 2 opposites to limit each others effect (like soft warming look/crisp winter look) and adjusting opacity to get something subtle, and maybe combined with a luminosity mask to put a cool look into the shadows for a colder look but leaving the rest of the image untouched.

it’s always interesting to see how others work as you often pick a technique up or show them a quicker/better way of doing something.
i’m amazed at how many good retouchers don’t know about holding down ALT when adjusting levels shows you exactly where you are clipping and they spend ages going over with the eyedropper to check!:facesmack:

Aye. There are a million ways to accomplish something - one has to chose the best suitable..
Youtube is a great resource, though most often you see a lot of speed retouch rather than actual techniques.

I watched Gry Garness retouching series, which were very good. Though again, she did pretty much flattened contrast and desaturated images prior to importing into PS, something I can't do with MFDB - colours are tones are so rich, it feels like a sacrilege...

 

[DrakeJ]

Joakim

One technique I used, is to create a curve layer in luminosity mode with black mask, paint highlights and then blur them (for oiled skin for instance).
Thank you for the tips! I never actually thought of adding an HSL clipping layer on top - brilliant! Though I am not that good with clipping layer logic yet - I tried the various masked layers as clipping with various success. Which mode would you add it in?

As for skin tone in C1 - I constantly fail with it - I am not sure understand it right yet. Either that, or no matter how I try the colour wheel nothing changes in the image....

Seems you're not using the skin tool correctly. I recommend this webinar phase one did on the tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfb4h8HV3A4&index=9&list=PLDMRz3ssFQH6pqpc9bKQcRM5fh_f9GlyZ

The bit that you're interested in starts at 25:30.

I don't add a hue/saturation-layer in a specific mode, just clip it ontop of your D&B layer where you saw the hue shift and correct it.

 

[Krosavcheg]

Seems you're not using the skin tool correctly. I recommend this webinar phase one did on the tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfb4h8HV3A4&index=9&list=PLDMRz3ssFQH6pqpc9bKQcRM5fh_f9GlyZ

The bit that you're interested in starts at 25:30.

I don't add a hue/saturation-layer in a specific mode, just clip it ontop of your D&B layer where you saw the hue shift and correct it.

Joakim

Thank you for the tips. Will grab the webinar and have a look.
Still working with C1 v7 due to refusal to upgrade OSX..

Edit: Now I remember. I tried few times but I missed the layer part - I did work on the image itself, which kind of constrained the selection and made it nearly impossible to get it right (hands not growing from right place..)

Though, I didn't find masks in C1 to be very accurate. In the webinar it is said that you don't have to be too accurate, but I found the edges to be extremely pronounced when I added selective colour corrections in Photoshop to finalise the look. Either that or mask spill was too unacceptable for me..

I think I need to sit down and re-try several times to build some form of skill...

 

[DrakeJ]

Joakim

Thank you for the tips. Will grab the webinar and have a look.
Still working with C1 v7 due to refusal to upgrade OSX..

Edit: Now I remember. I tried few times but I missed the layer part - I did work on the image itself, which kind of constrained the selection and made it nearly impossible to get it right (hands not growing from right place..)

Though, I didn't find masks in C1 to be very accurate. In the webinar it is said that you don't have to be too accurate, but I found the edges to be extremely pronounced when I added selective colour corrections in Photoshop to finalise the look. Either that or mask spill was too unacceptable for me..

I think I need to sit down and re-try several times to build some form of skill...

Could be a good idea to update the OS due to security issues. Capture One v10 supports two versions prior to the current. That must mean you haven't upgraded in quite a while. I started using Capture One at version 9 so I don't know how good the skin tool and/or masking was in v7.

 

[Krosavcheg]

Could be a good idea to update the OS due to security issues. Capture One v10 supports two versions prior to the current. That must mean you haven't upgraded in quite a while. I started using Capture One at version 9 so I don't know how good the skin tool and/or masking was in v7.

To be honest, I don't think 10.6.8 is less secure now than it was when it first came out..
I observe Apple's strategy in forcing more cumbersome code on hardware forcing users to buy new devices. It's how they survive, but I don't want to be a part of it..
Also it would mean that I have to replace my Photoshop CS5 with CC and go with subscription, which is ridiculous on any level.
(George Carlin's advertising lullaby springs to mind..)

V7 is quite ok. Sure it has its bugs and shortcomings, but it does work. I preferred V1 actually - the time it didn't manage catalogues, sessions and etc.
Trusting software to do that is a dead end - you get tied in and they have you by the balls. I much rather copy files into directories I make myself...

 

[DrakeJ]

To be honest, I don't think 10.6.8 is less secure now than it was when it first came out..
I observe Apple's strategy in forcing more cumbersome code on hardware forcing users to buy new devices. It's how they survive, but I don't want to be a part of it..
Also it would mean that I have to replace my Photoshop CS5 with CC and go with subscription, which is ridiculous on any level.
(George Carlin's advertising lullaby springs to mind..)

V7 is quite ok. Sure it has its bugs and shortcomings, but it does work. I preferred V1 actually - the time it didn't manage catalogues, sessions and etc.
Trusting software to do that is a dead end - you get tied in and they have you by the balls. I much rather copy files into directories I make myself...

I don't really know what to say... but I wish you good luck in trying to not update your software anymore.