New M11

[fmueller]

This reviewer is obviously a Leica fan.

As a long time Leica user I find it an interesting camera but a poor value. To many bigger pixels on offer for less money.

Yes, the reviewer is a Leica fan, but not a fanboy.

I resisted Leica digital for a long time. I finally concluded that all the "value seeking" was costing me more money in the long run as I hopped around from one great value to the next that were large and bulky. After new kit enthusiasm waned, the kit was left behind in the car or the house in favor of a pocket cam, like a GRIII. Eventually it occurred to me that despite wanting the ultimate in image quality, the reality was that the size (weight and bulk) of the gear was getting in the way of me making the photographs I want. It finally dawned on me that size does matter, and image quality too and the Leica M and compatible lenses ticks those boxes and goes with me almost everywhere. I learned the most expensive camera is the one you leave in the car. The M system is not inexpensive but when coupled with some superb Voigtlander lenses, the value proposition improves significantly. I happen to have some Leica lenses also, one of my favorites I've owned for 35 years.

 

[ptomsu]

If I would buy a Leica M again (after my M8 debacle some 13 years ago) it would be the M11. Have been sitting out the M9, M240 and M10 - now it would be time to jump on the boat again ----

But hey, I do not want to spend €8300.- for any photographic instrument anymore and considering it I never spent more that €5000.- even for any digital Leica M - can it be that over all these years prices increased so dramatically

 

[GrahamWelland]

Ultimately we have one life on this earth so enjoy it whilst you can. If that means buying the best camera platform and using it at the expense of money well why not if it doesn’t hurt anybody else and it makes your time on the planet better.

There’s no point being the richest man in the cemetery and regretting that you didn’t enjoy life.

 

[MGrayson]

Ultimately we have one life on this earth so enjoy it whilst you can. If that means buying the best camera platform and using it at the expense of money well why not if it doesn’t hurt anybody else and it makes your time on the planet better.

There’s no point being the richest man in the cemetery and regretting that you didn’t enjoy life.

I use the best system I can carry. That changes over time due not to the quality of the systems, but due to my ability to carry them.

 

[Godfrey]

I use the best system I can carry. That changes over time due not to the quality of the systems, but due to my ability to carry them.

I modify your first statement to "I use the best system I will carry. ..." I have many cameras, but many of them I won't carry for various reasons, bulk and weight being two of them. Some times, I just don't want to carry anything I can't stick in my pocket and not even notice ... On those occasions, I carry a Minox EC submini.

G

 

[Geoff]

Two ways to look at the cost:
- one is independent of cost, and whether its usability suits one
- another is with cost considered, and thus the camera has to be compared to others as a value proposition.

M Leicas seem to me to be more in the first category. In early Leica times, they might have been expensive, but one could sort of justify their cost based on the long term use. Not so sure that still holds today (although perhaps). This is not to justify the costs, nor to excuse how much they really do cost. Rather, just to identify different ways to see it.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

That is easy for you to say. There are a lot of people, some very talented who simply can not afford a niche and limited use camera like an M11 at half the asking price. And sadly, most of those who do buy these cameras at full price new....are not at all good photographers.

I can afford it, I just put a limit on camera bodies at $7K as a matter of principal which means I may or may not get a used one in a couple years. I would rather put the money into traveling to the places that inspire great photographs.

I hope it is pretty clear to most that only a tiny fraction of people on this earth can cough up the money needed to buy a Leica and a lens, any Leica with any lens. Even if I would have liked very much to own and use an M11, and even if I might be able to survive the financial challenge, I have made life choices that prohibits me from doing that. Photography has made me many friends, and some of those friends really struggle to survive from one day to another. Helping a few of them to get an education and chase their life goals is to me much more rewarding than the use of any shiny, new camera. So I mostly stay with the cameras I have.

Other people make other choices, and I'm very happy that there are enough of you around to keep a company like Leica alive. The people at Leica need to make a living too, and nobody makes cameras like that without having a passion for photography, for handicraft and technology and for contributing something of lasting value. So to those who can afford it, please help keeping the passion alive, the passion for excellence.

 

[GrahamWelland]

That is easy for you to say. There are a lot of people, some very talented who simply can not afford a niche and limited use camera like an M11 at half the asking price. And sadly, most of those who do buy these cameras at full price new....are not at all good photographers.

I can afford it, I just put a limit on camera bodies at $7K as a matter of principal which means I may or may not get a used one in a couple years. I would rather put the money into traveling to the places that inspire great photographs.

Why the negativity? As I said, if you have the means and don’t hurt anybody and this is a route to happiness then why not?

I can’t fix other people’s limitations, regardless of talent.

You know what, I have several friends who have left GetDPI due to negativity in the forums. I understand why.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Photography has made me many friends, and some of those friends really struggle to survive from one day to another. Helping a few of them to get an education and chase their life goals is to me much more rewarding than the use of any shiny, new camera.

 

[anyone]

A lot of cost discussion here. I enjoy reading at GetDPI about various niche camera systems and watch pictures taken with them - in other forums, the owners of such systems are often alienated because of discussions about the price, whether it’s worth it etc.

If someone buys the camera, the question is for this individual obviously answered, and nobody is forced to join.

So I’m curious to see pictures taken with it and am closely following the corresponding picture thread

(Unfortunately I am no Leica user, but I do see the appeal of having such a lightweight and powerful kit. It’s a really compelling package, and I am happy that small camera manufacturers like Leica and Linhof can survive in Germany. It’s a little sad to see how Rolleiflex developed.)

(Edit: that said, there seems to be also a unhealthy trend for newer camera models getting more and more expensive - not Leica only, but also Canon for example with the R5.)

 

[Godfrey]

There are many things that I might want that I cannot afford, and then there are quite a lot of things that I might afford but don't want. And then there are the lot of things that I want and can only afford if I'm willing to not afford some other things. Leica cameras fall into this latter class.

What other people can or cannot afford, and why, is their business. I don't bias relating what *I* do or do not do because others can't do the same thing. That would be presumptuous and pretentious in my opinion. Only those others can evaluate what they can afford, or not, and act accordingly.

G

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Why the negativity? As I said, if you have the means and don’t hurt anybody and this is a route to happiness then why not?

I can’t fix other people’s limitations, regardless of talent.

You know what, I have several friends who have left GetDPI due to negativity in the forums. I understand why.

Buying an expensive Leica is one of the most "non-destructive" ways of spending a lot of money that I can think of. It doesn't hurt the environment or other people, it helps a company with a real soul for photography progress further, and it supports the buyer's aim towards creating good photographs and at the same time becoming owner of a piece of quality equipment that will hopefully last for many years. The fact that some buy it to use as a mantelpiece or show off in other ways doesn't change that. Nobody "needs" a Leica, and if one can't afford it, don't buy it. Buy a second-hand M6 or M9, or simply buy another brand.

Had the discussion been about patented, life saving medicine, about the price and accessibility of clean drinking water or about other commodities that all people on earth need, my attitude would have been totally different. But with photography, there are so many inexpensive ways to a satisfying experience that it's hardly inaccessible to anybody.

The M11 is, at least for the time being, the Non Plus Ultra of slow photography. It's in itself a piece of art, and a superb demonstration of how traditional methods and values can be matched with cutting edge technology. But being that, and as long as nobody is willing to spend the monies needed to create a competitor, Leica can basically charge whatever they want for it, and they do.

Me? I will study the specs, the reviews and the photos of the camera till my eyeballs roll out, and that is totally free. And I will watch as more photos taken with it start appearing on the internet. But to be honest, I don't think those photos will be any better or more satisfying to watch than what has already been created with more or less any other M camera in the past. And that is one of the beauties of photography too.

 

[glenerrolrd]

Personally when I read thread about a new product (from any manufacture ) , I appreciate a discussion of what's new and how that helps you . With photography gear we all have different application profiles . I do a lot of street and travel . Not much landscape or studio work . I appreciate the differences in user requirements and thereby the different perspective on what's important or acceptable .

Discussions of cost leave me cold but I appreciate that its a go no go factor for many photographers . Often its a question of not affordability but what you are willing to commit to admittedly a hobby . I bought my first Leica body in 1970 a black paint M4 and I still have it . Cost me a full two weeks of my pay . The next week I bought a Rolex watch ..cost me another pay check . Lived in the family basement until I had enough $$ to move out . I still have the M4 and the Rolex . I know digital cameras are different but I could be pretty happy with my M9M and its now 12 years old .

Really could you care less how I make a buying decsion? I don t care a bit if you decide not to buy a m11 . So any post whose subject line is "I decided not to buy an M11". is a waste of time .

Rather we could talk about what's different and does it matter ?

Larger more advanced sensor

New Viso

Better metering

Different (better? ) color

Improved metering

Low weight (but required aluminum top plate and new finish for black body )

 

[KeithDM]

Yesterday I put two camera bags in the car and ventured forth for a meander around a local village which also happens to include a World Heritage site. One bag contained my eight-year old M240, 21mm SEM & 135mm APO-Telyt-M. The other my two-year old M10M and 50mm Noctilux f1 v4. Wandered around with bag 1 for a while then returned to the carpark and switched pages (I'm too old and decrepit to carry two bodies + lenses around any more). As I set off with the M10M, I thought I'd just grab a few shots without venturing too far from the car - but ended up walking further and spending more time than with the M240 purely because the M10M and its result are and remain (to me) bewitching.

The relevance of this to the M11? I've read some reviews (Jono Slack's and Sean Reid's in particular) and yes, the M11 has many worthwhile improvements over my M240. But! Given the limited use my M240 has had these past two years logically I'm finding hard to justify upgrading. What may eventually swing the balance is the lure of having a lighter body (the black version) that is also the same size as my M10M and M7 plus the bonus of higher performance etc etc. Time (and wife's agreement!) may tell...

 

[algrove]

Hey, hey, hey folks!! We all have opinions and just let it be. You know who you are and we know who you are.

Remember "Hysteria before dementia" to paraphrase a friend.

Buy whatever you want for whatever reason you want and just explain its virtues and not criticize someone else's differing opinions.

 

[SrMphoto]

Some details about M11 (compared to M10-R):
- Live view has been much improved (similar ergonomics as other mirrorless cameras)
- No observable shutter shock, even though there is no EFCS.
- Sensor readout speed is similar to other cameras with 60MP, 14-bit mode.
- Max exposure time in A-mode is 24 minutes (ISO 64), 60 minutes in Bulb mode.
- Removable bottom plate is gone, battery mechanism is similar to X1D/SL2. Must remove the battery to access the SD card.
- Charging and image transfer via the easily accessible USB-C port.
- Perspective Control has been removed.
- Three instead of two customizable function buttons.
- The UI is now similar to other Leica cameras (SL2, Q2).

The improvements in image quality and noise are still being debated. I am happy with what I see.
The benefits of triple-resolution are still not clear, apart from having smaller files.

 

[fmueller]

but one could sort of justify their cost based on the long term use. Not so sure that still holds today (although perhaps).

I always comfort myself by remembering the price of film and developing. Or the cost building and maintaining my darkroom. I have a sub $1000 printer that cranks out archival prints, color and black and white (up to 17x22) of unimagined quality from 20 years ago. Yes, I still have my M6 and every time I put a few rolls through it and get the film developed and then do the scans, I think "this M6 photography could get really expensive, really fast" .

 

[SrMphoto]

There is a good tech talk on YouTube:

Leica Tech Talk: A Legend Reinvented. Discover the Leica M11

Key points:

• Lower resolution is better for buffering (endless with 36MP mode).
• No degradation in image quality when using a lower resolution, unlike other manufacturers (12 bit instead of 14 bit, getting slower).
• Compatibility with old lenses has improved, there is more space inside the camera.
• Highest DR of all color M cameras (ISO 64).
• Dual gain technology helps with DR (ISO 64 and between ISO 200 and 400)
• No major product update within the next year.
• John Kreidler says that the colors are reminiscent of S cameras, the colors are getting better and better.
• Going to a lower resolution mode means less noise in the shadows (better DR). The same effect can be achieved with 60MP if you reduce the resolution in post.
• Leica works closely with Adobe and Capture One. Capture One already has a profile. In Adobe you can use Adobe Standard or embedded M11 Profile (more saturated). Recommend using Adobe Standard for high ISO.
• The new shutter is 10ms slower, not noticeable in practice. Shutter lag is longer with the electronic shutter; use the mechanical shutter for the shortest lag.
• Better flare resistance with M11, more room inside, not much where the light can reflect. Situations where M10 would show reflections and ghost effects may be eliminated with M11.
• There is no difference in color reproduction depending on the resolution.
• High ISO performance (ISO 6400) vs. the competition: clear and strong advantage in color rendition at high ISO in the finest details. If you are looking only at ground noise level, you will not see much difference.
• Had long discussions about rangefinder accuracy with 60MP. Ten years ago would have said not possible, but it turned out to be working very well.
• Incredible battery life, especially compared to previous models; not running live view when metering saves power.

 

[SrMphoto]

Bill Claff has published the numbers:

PhotonsToPhotos: M11 vs. M10-R

 

[PeterA]

Love the optical view through the M finder - think that the rangefinder focusing is only good for still life type shots like pets/portraits and urban scenes blah blah blah... Dislike having to peel off the red or black Leica sticker so I can adjust the rangefinder which has a mind of its own as far as maintaining focus - M cameras are a nostalgic love affair for me - don't regret the divorce and might consider hooking up with an EVF version of an M sized camera - like a CL body which is a better camera in every respect - except for the throttled down resolution. I've gotten used to lugging around the so called 'brick' SL2 - which is a whoppingly massive 300grams heavier than an M....!!! I've become addicted to being able to focus sharply and easily using fast M glass or being lazy and using auto with the crappy Apo SL glass I'm lumped with.

The truth is the Fuji100 blitzes everything Leica makes as far as high res cameras go - but that is another story.