P1 slashes XT prices - new beginning? IQ5 around the corner?

[miriquidi]

2) BUT the other three are similar and can actually be seen as pro P1 back - meaning if the legendary IQ5 DOES arrive at one point and is better than the IQ4 ... it will garner interest ...

If you're already legendary in the minds of people, before you're actually born, that's a really bad starting point in life.
The tone in this thread makes me feel a bit like listening to a football commentator at a word cup semi-finale. Football is not the most important thing in life, as it's not photography. We are not a post war society where the improvement of material things is a matter of life or death.

Just calm down a bit, enjoy a cup of tea and go out to shoot with your camera.

The X2D MK I is probably the best deal in the MF market right now ... its kind of insane that a 100 MPX camera costs not that much anymore incl. IS, high res EVF etc.

4k€ for a camera without mechanical shutter and an electronic one that is only capable doing still life and landscape. Unless you get Hasselblad lenses for free, that doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

Well if they're smart they develop their own lens line for bespoke to be completely independent of Rodenstock and lower the price point.

That would be the dumbest possible investment decision for RD-resources they could make. Pay Rodenstock for holding the manufacturing capacity and repair service or if Rodenstock can't do this, buy the IP for that lenses and transfer that to another high end optics manufacturer. Building up this expertise out of a electronics and software company is a sort of Kamikaze. I would quit my job for such Kamikaze commandos.

 

[Manoli]

If you're already legendary in the minds of people, before you're actually born, that's a really bad starting point in life.
The tone in this thread makes me feel a bit like listening to a football commentator at a word cup semi-finale. Football is not the most important thing in life, ...

Reminds me of Bill Shankly, the legendary Liverpool FC manager (1959–1974), famous for his wit and passion who, amongst a multitude of famous quotes, once remarked ...

 

[hcubell]

4k€ for a camera without mechanical shutter and an electronic one that is only capable doing still life and landscape. Unless you get Hasselblad lenses for free, that doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

I would (and did) pay $8k for a camera that just did landscape and still life extremely well with the existing line of Hasselblad lenses AND had all of the inane, useless to me “options and features” that litter every Japanese camera in existence today stripped out of the Menu and User Interface. What is a good deal is very much in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

If you're already legendary in the minds of people, before you're actually born, that's a really bad starting point in life.
The tone in this thread makes me feel a bit like listening to a football commentator at a word cup semi-finale. Football is not the most important thing in life, as it's not photography. We are not a post war society where the improvement of material things is a matter of life or death.

Just calm down a bit, enjoy a cup of tea and go out to shoot with your camera.


4k€ for a camera without mechanical shutter and an electronic one that is only capable doing still life and landscape. Unless you get Hasselblad lenses for free, that doesn't sound like a good deal to me.


That would be the dumbest possible investment decision for RD-resources they could make. Pay Rodenstock for holding the manufacturing capacity and repair service or if Rodenstock can't do this, buy the IP for that lenses and transfer that to another high end optics manufacturer. Building up this expertise out of a electronics and software company is a sort of Kamikaze. I would quit my job for such Kamikaze commandos.

You lack a fundamental understanding of the workings in the industry.

1) P1 uses contract manufacturing - there's Nittoh which can produce at the level of Rodenstock and they are behind the line of aerial optics P1 commissioned for the new aerial camera. Nowadays a lens design costs somewhere between 150-250k EUR to develop with 12-24m lead time to productiion. Leica is a bit slower they plan in 3y cycles for new lenses, but this includes more project definition time and testing in the field. It is not a big deal to commission one's own Digarons so to say. The issue is the RoI. If you invest 250k plus 4k per lens and sell it for 8k you still need to sell 60 lenses to just break even. The global sales volume of tech cam Digarons is in the very low hundreds across all focal lenghts so getting your money back in 2026 for a 10k high res lens for MFD tech cam photography is tricky. Rodenstock had a 25mm 90 IC lens design in the drawer which was scrapped because none of the customers, e.g. P1, Cambo, etc. wanted to guarantee amount of purchases.

2) Excelitas post pandemic saw a decrease in lens orders and cotinuously raised prices in multiple rounds cutting into margins of all tech cam manufacturers and P1's aerial business. Given they're the only game in town with 90mm IC 80lp/mm+ optics they can command this monopolistic rent.

My understanding is that Phase commissioned their own line of aerial lenses to become independent from ever increasing prices from Rodenstock and I think they're currently building out a mirrorless lens range.

Excelitas, of which Rodenstock is just a brand, couldn't care less about photo optics, if I remeber correctly it is in the low single digit percent of revenues, somewhere betweeen 1-3%. It is more costly for Rodentock to unterrupr industrial range production for 20 180HRs for Phase almost to just quit photo lens production outright at this stage and focus on producing high end optics for industrial purposes.

I think we'll see a new range of optics from P1, produced by Nittoh, based on the already announced aerial lenses.

When announcing their 150mm lens they already stated, that this is the beginning of a new lens line re the nomenclature.

On the Hassy - of course you need lenses, but that's the same with a P1 back. The difference is you can get an X2D MK I for 4k while an arguably technologically less advanced CPO nack with 100 MPX costs double ... makes not much sense anymore.

 

[anyone]

You have no clue and lack a fundamental understanding of the workings in the industry.

It might be only me, but I disapprove the unnecessarily fierce tone, regardless of the content. Can we keep it civilized?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

It might be only me, but I disapprove the unnecessarily fierce tone, regardless of the content. Can we keep it civilized?

Happy to keep it civilized but saying that a statement I made is the "dumbest thing P1 could do" while displaying a complete ignorance of what's happening in the background or just simply the fact that P1 just released a full lineup of aerial lenses that they contract manufacture via Nittoh to become independent of Rodenstock - precisely what the poster made fun of - needs to be called out. Stating that something ought to be the dumbest thing ever while being ignorant that this is precisely what ALREADY P1 CHOSE TO DO kind of speaks for itself, I guess.



There you go, that's P1's new Nittoh manufactured own aerial ultra high res lens line-up for their new 250 MPX aerial camera. Pls. note, that P1 used in the past the same Rodie lenses it uses in the XT for its aerial cameras, namely 50, 90, 180 etc.

They just need to tweak the range a little, maybe a more traditional 80mm standard and at one point a 30ish ultrawide. These optics must be absolutely stellar given they've been just developed for the 250 MPX gen of backs. I also understand that there's no shift capability in these, ie still, this could be the system optics range or a variant thereof.

Especially the 45/65mm sound super interesting. The 150 is likely the same they already sell separately, but not sure.

Quesion is whether they'll do F2.8 variant AF lenses now for a mirrorless XF successor so to say, with lenses made by Nittoh, which also manufacture for Hassy. The systems optics could be a bit less performant, in exchange for a wider aperture and proper AF.

Reason for launching RSX is because Rodenstock is a supply chain risk at this stage and one cannot be dependent on one source of optics. On top, they'll now save significant third-party lens procurement costs.

They can keep XT lenses around for the shift people and forego margins on the bodies and lenses if the main thing they care about is selling backs.

 

[ThdeDude]

... but activity is happening (slowly) and things will emerge ... but it's not going to happen next week.


Steve Hendrix
[email protected]

Assuming you being in the know, this is actually good news!

 

[ThdeDude]

Larger sensor makes absolutely zero sense for the X series hasselblads…no lenses for that circle of coverage.

Yes, and no.

If you have substantially larger sensor, you could select various aspect ratios and orientation and still within the cone of coverage of 33x44 lenses. For example, if the sensor is big enough, one could, say, select 40x40mm (now for a square would have to crop to 33x33mm) and still within 33x44 lens coverage, or select a 2:1 aspect ratio (you do the math as to the dimensions within a 33x44 lens coverage). A larger sensor than a given lens coverage would allow better utilization of that lens coverage. (Yes, could use lenses with more lens coverage but these lenses also get bigger.)

 

[miriquidi]

I understood "develop their own lens line" in a way, that is a do-it-yourself-approach. Outsourcing to Nittoh is more reasonable.

Nowadays a lens design costs somewhere between 150-250k EUR to develop with 12-24m lead time to productiion.

Seems a bit low to me, if you think of the performance level needed. Building a number of prototypes, running climate tests like behavior after temperature shock, fixing weak points, ... .

@hcubell: A GFX100 is substantially cheaper and has a focal plane shutter. What's the benefit of an X2D compared to that?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

There's multiple high end contract manufacturers, IBES out of Munich does Angenieux contract manufacturing for example. Price as said is in that region per focal length. Software tools are quite advanced and it is not a biggie to copy a Digaron type lens. The issue is more the return on investment given per unit costs are still high in small order quantities.

Ie, even if you commission a 40 HR Digaron type lens, it may well cost 5-6k to produce all costs folded in which means in this market quite a risky investment as you need to prepay a lot and front R&D.

The market for non AF large IC tech cam lenses is small. It is a niche within medium format digital which itself is a niche compared to 35mm digital.

As said, P1 already announced its first self branded lens, with the denomination being a start of an own lens line.

The Phase One XT 150mm HO-S SB Lens - First Impressions - Capture Integration

First impressions. One word comes to mind as I explore the image capabilities of the brand-new Phase One XT 150mm lens, and that is Compression. I just love how this lens lets you step back and see a completely different look than your previous lenses are producing. Lens compression is a visual...

www.captureintegration.com

As Rodenstock is forcing everyone's hand a little with their continued price hikes it is not unlikely, especially after the aerial lenses, that we'll see P1's first own lenses come out alongside the IQ5.

This would be a seismic shift in the industry of course as it would most likely then coincide with the end of Rodenstock HR lens production if they lose the biggest client.

Already P1 replcing all aerial lenses is a power move to become independent of Excelitas.

All the changes happening on the optics side mean also chances of a return of 100mm+ IC lenses like the wides from SK are unlikely in this market, which means they will continue to hold their value over time as it is VERY unlikely we'll ever see a 110mm 43 XL type of lens or even the legend that is the 60XL which is extremely sharp with endless IC.

The SK legends 28, 43, 60, and 120 ASPH remain the benchmark optics for high resolution stitch tech cam photography - akin to drum scanners being a technology peak these lenses will stay relevant even in the age of a IQ5 250 MPX.

Curious now what Phase is cooking.

 

[miriquidi]

Just another off-topic question regarding the somewhat cheap X2D, regarding their use as a kind of digital back for all sorts of cameras+lenses. I've read, that it's only possible to magnify a live view image at the centre of the sensor, if you're using a non X lens (and probably non-H lens). I guess this isn't valid.
If there are limitations, is it the same in the X1D line? The CFV100c shouldn't have that kind of limit.

 

[Maxx9photo]

If the IQ5 priced sub $15k, that would be awesome!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

If the IQ5 priced sub $15k, that would be awesome!

Not gonna happen, maybe a bit lower than IQ4, but chances are same price with good trade-in value.

They just have overstock CPO inventory and need to turn XT lenses.

IQ3s go for 8k in the market vs. what 12k or before 15k CPO?

Of course no one buys.

 

[Pemihan]

It might be only me, but I disapprove the unnecessarily fierce tone, regardless of the content. Can we keep it civilized?

You're not the only one.

 

[f8orbust]

I think the digital era has attracted folks more interested in balance sheets than they are in photography.

 

[Doppler9000]

I think the digital era has attracted folks more interested in balance sheets than they are in photography.

This would perhaps be ironic, given that the photography business is flat or shrinking, and extremely competitive.

 

[nickw]

Well, I bought an IQ3 Tri kit this weekend.

Which means you can all expect the IQ5 announcement in the coming weeks or months.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yes P1 is offloading them big time.

There are also youtubers doing content on the XF all of a sudden and blue ring lenses. Specifically with the IQ3.

Hopefully the IQ5 won't break XF compatibility!

New P1 lenses surely also coming in the next two years after they completely kick out Rodenstock ... (they've eliminated them partially already in the 250 MPX aerial platform, photo stuff would be next if they follow a consistent strategy of independence which I think they do).

It would be then finally the next lenses after the 150 homebrew they released.

 

[stngoldberg]

I keep reading this thread out of interest…but I have a fundamental disconnect with the optimism that there will ever be a P5
My disconnect is, “who will buy it?”
The IQ4 is a wonderful camera…the lenses are expensive and exceptional….but…but…but
Would I ever again buy it?
I don’t think so…ii’s too heavy for me…I find myself using other good/more that adequate and less expensive cameras more frequently lately….are they as good….probably not…..are they good enough…YES
Can I see the difference on a printed image….not easily
I have found in my 86 years of experience that things that don’t make sense usually fail to make a profit and lately firms are doing extensive market research before a new launch
Stanley

 

[gerald.d]

25% percent off the body to 6k USD incl. tariffs at 15% means 5100 USD…

It does not.

Tariffs are applied to the price as per the shipping invoice at customs entry point, not the final retail price.

If Phase One ship directly to US dealers, then it will be the cost price to the dealers that the tariff will be applied against (if they ship to their own US subsidiary, who then sells to the dealers, then it will be an even lower price than that).

This is why CI can offer CPO backs with “only” a 7.5% tariff surcharge on their retail price (see earlier in the thread).

Illustration, purely made up, for a random product, not implying these are the margins involved here…

Pre-tariff retail price is $10k.
Retailer buys from overseas supplier for $5k including freight and insurance.

15% tariff is $750.

Post-tariff retail price is $10,750.