Doppler9000
Well-known member
In general, retailers will try to maintain margin percentages, not margin dollars, so the % tariff is passed through, not the dollar tariff.
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P1 slashes XT prices - new beginning? IQ5 around the corner?
- Thread starter Paul Spinnler
- Start date
And yet, he we are in this very thread with a retailer of the very products we are discussing actually stating publicly that this is not the case.
Neither is it the case across pretty much all other retail categories. Plenty of research out there on this should you care to read up on it.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
It is a simplified view, yes, to just assume the tariff in the end price. In reality it is the tariff on the importer's price meaning the tariff percentage pro rata recuded by the margin % of the dealer domestically when looking at the end price for consumers.
This said, with the dollar at a record low, extreme geopolitical and political uncertainties affecting cost of living and prices of daily goods and on top AI impacting people's ability to earn an income the ultra high price point of MF makes it a difficult sell when at the same time X2D MK Is drop to 4k or thereabouts incl. IS and Sony BSI sensor tech.
The IQ3 is an almost decade old digital back with a non-BSI sensor and a price point of 10K+ is not an easy sell given these market conditions and extremely cheap crop MF alternatives, especially when factoring in that both Fuji and Hassy have now first-gen 100 MPX systems which are readily available in the used market.
This sais, I hope the latest geopolitical developments will not have a too detrimental effect on the bespoke photography business and that an IQ5 is still being considered. At this stage, it is difficult to say.
Given the rate of surprises on a weekly basis almost, I am not sure what happens with new ultra high price point product launches.
The S4 has already been put on ice by Leica, so it will be interesting to see if P1 will release something new this year.
They are surely working on getting independent of Rodenstock after parts of that business has been sold, so at this stage it seems still unclear what's going to happen.
Another big shift related to the MF mirrorless revolution relates to the high end quality of system optics which, like the SK and Rodies, can sit close to the sensor and be of very good, especially on the wide side or as recently seen as zooms as well when looking at Hassy's latest killer zoom lens.
If you factor in keystone correction in post, an X2D MK II with say a 35-100, with 10-stop-IBIS and HNCS, seems to me a formidable tool for nimble architectural photography and another threat to more bulky tech cam setups.
I remember a time where the choice was between a Cambo with 35 XL and P45 vs. a really lower quality Canon system, but nowadays the IQ delta is not a factor anymore.
So time will tell what's gonna happen. For now, another round of geopolitical uncertainties is for sure not helping the launch of 50k digital backs. Tariffs are just one element of this, but one that for sure is not helpful to make an IQ5 reality.
This said, with the dollar at a record low, extreme geopolitical and political uncertainties affecting cost of living and prices of daily goods and on top AI impacting people's ability to earn an income the ultra high price point of MF makes it a difficult sell when at the same time X2D MK Is drop to 4k or thereabouts incl. IS and Sony BSI sensor tech.
The IQ3 is an almost decade old digital back with a non-BSI sensor and a price point of 10K+ is not an easy sell given these market conditions and extremely cheap crop MF alternatives, especially when factoring in that both Fuji and Hassy have now first-gen 100 MPX systems which are readily available in the used market.
This sais, I hope the latest geopolitical developments will not have a too detrimental effect on the bespoke photography business and that an IQ5 is still being considered. At this stage, it is difficult to say.
Given the rate of surprises on a weekly basis almost, I am not sure what happens with new ultra high price point product launches.
The S4 has already been put on ice by Leica, so it will be interesting to see if P1 will release something new this year.
They are surely working on getting independent of Rodenstock after parts of that business has been sold, so at this stage it seems still unclear what's going to happen.
Another big shift related to the MF mirrorless revolution relates to the high end quality of system optics which, like the SK and Rodies, can sit close to the sensor and be of very good, especially on the wide side or as recently seen as zooms as well when looking at Hassy's latest killer zoom lens.
If you factor in keystone correction in post, an X2D MK II with say a 35-100, with 10-stop-IBIS and HNCS, seems to me a formidable tool for nimble architectural photography and another threat to more bulky tech cam setups.
I remember a time where the choice was between a Cambo with 35 XL and P45 vs. a really lower quality Canon system, but nowadays the IQ delta is not a factor anymore.
So time will tell what's gonna happen. For now, another round of geopolitical uncertainties is for sure not helping the launch of 50k digital backs. Tariffs are just one element of this, but one that for sure is not helpful to make an IQ5 reality.
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Doppler9000
Well-known member
Are you saying that, in general, cost increases to retailers are passed on to consumers on a dollar-for-dollar basis?
If so, wouldn’t this mean that profitability, on a percentage basis would decline essentially continuously, as costs increase?
Or, are you saying that only increases in costs due to tariffs are passed through on a dollar-for-dollar basis?
In either case, I would appreciate some citations supporting the contentions.
Well, in the end, it’s pretty simple: the tariffs have to be paid within the country of import (US in this case), so it’s going to hurt someone there: either the importer, dealer or - if it’s added as a surcharge to the price - the consumer.
However, unfortunately all of us (not only US residents) lose in this, because it pressures manufacturers located elsewhere (pretty much the entire camera industry).
However, unfortunately all of us (not only US residents) lose in this, because it pressures manufacturers located elsewhere (pretty much the entire camera industry).
I was very clear in what I said. Frankly I’m not entirely sure what you are struggling to comprehend. Follow the context of the discussion.
Tariffs are applied to the costs as declared on shipment invoices, not final retail prices. They are not a sales tax.
You already have a “citation” in this very thread from a retailer who has not chosen to maintain their percentage profit margins following the increase in tariffs. This is an internet forum, I’m not submitting a paper to an economics journal for peer review. Google it.
The $ costs of the increase in tariffs are being absorbed across much every entity in the supply chain up to and including the retail buyer. Suppliers are adjusting pricing globally to ensure arbitrage opportunities are limited.
You will struggle to find any competent business in the US that has blindly adhered to its historical planned CoG margins and applied the entirety of the percentage of the tariff increases to their retail price.
You're sure about that?
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
I heard that it has been put on ice, ie deep freeze, after the tariffs from trump in a board meeting, but not cancelled.
I was in parts consulted for some color feedback and was also told it is put on hold indefinitely, ie with no clear date for a pickup, but not cancelled.
They did quite a bit of work regarding the design, lens range, and I think there was also a prototype, but not sure.
So I'd expect it to be picked up again after the M12 is out beg. of next year based on their new sensor tech. Similar to the S3, which then led also to a sensor for the M10-R, they'll have again their own great color science based on a super low noise chip with enhanced red channel response.
The S3's IQ is incredible, especially at low iso.
Cannot wait for them to again have a sensor tech.
The sony tint is just really distinct and sometimes i prefer a more neutral color out of the box
I think P1 is in a tough spot in the pro market.
As a past customer, for our studio the use case is dead. We can throw everything at our GFX and the output is still good enough for all our clients (we print large too). We can have 4 spare bodies laying around and not dread any digital back failure on set like we had so many times in the past.
In my country the distributors are not providing CPO anymore, rentals are no where to be found and the resell price collapsed.
For me, what could save P1 is a "budget" back (under 15K) for personal works or hobbyists. Something like the CFV 100C but better, that i can throw on a tech cam and shoot.
But this could only work if the service and reliability are good.
Time will tell.
As a past customer, for our studio the use case is dead. We can throw everything at our GFX and the output is still good enough for all our clients (we print large too). We can have 4 spare bodies laying around and not dread any digital back failure on set like we had so many times in the past.
In my country the distributors are not providing CPO anymore, rentals are no where to be found and the resell price collapsed.
For me, what could save P1 is a "budget" back (under 15K) for personal works or hobbyists. Something like the CFV 100C but better, that i can throw on a tech cam and shoot.
But this could only work if the service and reliability are good.
Time will tell.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Pro market was lost long time ago.
It is only prosumer amateurs at this stage - dentists et al. who will walk into a shop and buy 10k Rodie, etc.
Fuji and Hasselblad changed the game.
Phase one already tried to pivot five years ago by focusing on the concept of "extraordinary passion" of (rich) prosumers:
This is also around the time where the division became rebranded to "Bespoke Photography" which already includes an element of individualized luxury.
A photo studio in LDN doing headshots all day long needs a reliable shot machine, not a bespoke photographic product ...
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It's not totally gone. I know quite a lot of Studios that are still using P1, in some cities it's still the majority.
It's sad really, the XF/IQ system was my dream camera. But hey, it's subjective, business is not and a P1 system is not a good value at all in a Pro environment atm.
Fuji is dominant because of the fact that it works with C1. Good luck finding a digitech that uses Phocus.
P1-150MP backs are on the shelves of rental houses for those jobs where the client absolutely demands them, with every other DB now part of the vibrant (at least here in the UK) second hand scene; the 80MP and 60MP CCD backs are still highly regarded for stuff like portraiture, and I personally find the quality of the images that come off these backs when paired with S/K or R/S glass pretty much unbeatable.
P1-150MP backs are on the shelves of rental houses for those jobs where the client absolutely demands them, with every other DB now part of the vibrant (at least here in the UK) second hand scene; the 80MP and 60MP CCD backs are still highly regarded for stuff like portraiture, and I personally find the quality of the images that come off these backs when paired with S/K or R/S glass pretty much unbeatable.
I think the UK is quite different from my country (Switzerland). We used to rent to have a backup on production days, nowadays there aren't that many available backs to rent on rental houses shelves. There was also a shift post COVID, quite a few studios went bust or moved out of big cities, this did not help rental houses at all (we lost quite a few).
But hey you are right, Hasselblad is not a viable alternative as long as they are out of C1. It's not only digitechs, my whole color workflow is based on Capture One and we choose our cameras around this workflow.
I hope things change in the future.
Not a ridiculous suggestion. Apple just announced a Macbook, Macbook Neo, with a MSRP below $600.-
mristuccia
Well-known member
In order to be better than a CFV-100c, it must have:
- Full frame MF size
- No PDAF
- >= 150MPX
- < 15K $/€
Can P1 make such a thing? Or, conversely, can C1 compatibility be a solely driving factor for P1 to gain market share from HB with a potential Crop MF digital back?
We must also remember that a significant portion of the CFV-100c’s success lies in its compatibility with a vast and enduring HB legacy product line.
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
It beats M1 which back then I used to work on IQ4 150 MPX files on an Air on holidays post pandemic.
It is actually enough as an on the go capture device. That you can throw on the back seat or not worry about in harsh conditions.
Tests are out, it can even edit 4k videos.
150 MPX files are 2019 tech.
It is actually enough as an on the go capture device. That you can throw on the back seat or not worry about in harsh conditions.
Tests are out, it can even edit 4k videos.
150 MPX files are 2019 tech.
Meant the reference to Macbook Neo more to its value preposition than performance.
What did an equivalent performance Macbook cost when the IQ4-150 was introduced in 2018? Guessing $2K?
I don't know Macbooks, but my mobile PCs back than were way slower and thicker. But they also had upgradeable RAM, a replaceable SSD, a matte display and can connect at least two USB devices while being also connected to an external screen, power by grid and physical network. Where may be use cases for that Neo (stylish electric typewriter for lectures + Newspaper reader), but in essence that Macbook is a phone with big screen and keyboard. If that device has to be repaired, you have to send in your personal data. I wouldn't even consider that.
But back to topic: I hope Phase One survives in there air reconnaissance niche and as a software company for Capture One.
Hasselblad uses in some of theit backs the same sensors as Phase One. Is there a converter from .3FR to the .IIQ format? I'm thinking of the 50 MP CMOS in 44x33 mm.
But back to topic: I hope Phase One survives in there air reconnaissance niche and as a software company for Capture One.
Hasselblad uses in some of theit backs the same sensors as Phase One. Is there a converter from .3FR to the .IIQ format? I'm thinking of the 50 MP CMOS in 44x33 mm.
Hi,
Interesting perspective, and I agree. Most pros moved to Sony and Canon a long time ago. Modern DSLRs are so good. The difference between a 6‑megapixel camera and a 22‑MP back was huge; the 6‑MP camera was barely usable. On the other hand, yesterday I was looking at a set of pictures of a Japanese woman taken with the X2D, and the level of detail was almost too much to bear (she is about 24 years old, so her skin is basically perfect—just not 100‑MP perfect).
Another point is that even if Phase One fully dominated the applications that benefit from higher resolution, such as landscape, art preservation, or product photography, cameras are basically, as I have stated before, a consumer electronics market: capital‑intensive with moderate to small margins. One needs volume to keep up, hence Apple’s introduction of lower‑cost Macs, including the Neo.
Best regards,