Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

[jon11]

AMEN to that Guy.

If a photographer does use more than one camera it can sometimes mean not using one for a few weeks or even months (like me, who uses my Sony gear mostly during the months of May to Sept to shoot weddings), but rarely during the winter months.

So, I have to re-learn the darn thing each time because the interface is so complicated and un-intuitive. The flow is so foreign to actual basic use that it drives me batty.

Not to constantly laud Leica, but the interface of the S camera is one of the fastest and most intuitive I've used to date. Four large toggle surfaces surrounding the LCD each with a logical grouping of controls … and each can be programed to a specific function and accessed by a longer push of that button.

So I have mine set up with ISO top left toggle, and Exposure Compensation is bottom left toggle. Top right is image review/magnification, and WB is lower right toggle.

This is my logical flow in sequence of most used functions. The stop down button can also be programed.

The camera can sit for weeks and I can pick it up and go right to work.

- Marc

this should be an optimal interface?
compared to button for everything like iso wb compensation switching for metering af and a big control for choosing program included user program you can program up to 5 complete interface for 5 different shooting situation.
leica s2 not have double wheel, for me a deal breaker. so i imagine in manual mode you must push a button to change aperture or speed, am i wrong?
personally i agree sony is complex overburdened interface with useless features.
pentax is not sony, but not even leica as far as usability and interface. is the best brand out there and if you spend 10 minutes with a 645d i'm sure you will find at home easily.

 

[jon11]

As previously pointed out, although Pentax is innovative with a number of unique shooting modes such as hyperprogram, it also suffers from illogical choices of how to implement "format card" (similar to the Sony's) and the inability of accomplishing simple functions like quick delete an image in a single step like with Nikon DSLR's. Finding very amateur like multi - step instructions to simply accomplish what is essentially a quick one step protocol with most other professional digital cameras is often maddening when needing to work quickly. Finding this on what was a initially a $10,000 camera (the 645D) was perplexing considering how well thought out the rest of the camera is.

Dave (D&A)

deleting images is so important now that card are so cheap? or format is a menu format card ok.
for example zooming with pentax 645d and k3 is a breeze , with a 100% magnification easy with a touch of the wheel...we won't talk about zooming with nikon cameras? i prefer a fast zooming option than a delete images in a step instead a two step. actually rarely delete images in camera.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I have the Sonys and it's taken me awhile now to calm down the interface to make it as simple and pain free as possible. It still is over burned with stupid stuff. And it still is confusing and does weird things sometimes. Usually my problems come with review and get to antsy to shoot again. These things need to let the shooter be in charge. I still don't understand of all the tech in the features that we just can't go in and organize all the tabs and line items they way we want. These are the things where engineers are simple overthinking what they feel is correct for everyone. This is bad thinking. Now Japanese cars are similar they put a lot of stuff on them compared to let's say German cars. Its a culture thing which is not bad in a way but it gets too busy and confusing. Artist and I speak for myself are not engineers per say and it's more about feel than content. Problem here is there playing host to every genre of photography they can think of. I like the Sonys quality wise there great but even someone like me with a lot of experience handling cameras sometimes it's just a kludge fudge of a operation.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

For all the talk of the Leica S being so simple and easy to use I can't get away from the fact that exposure compensation is not a direct wheel. That's beginner DSLR stuff and even the prosumer cameras have this feature as a direct access wheel. There are two ways to do it directly on my apparently horrifically over complicated Sony A7r. At a certain point reminiscing over retro style makes you forget just how much more ergonomic and fast to use (especially when the camera is at your eye) modern cameras are in comparison in so many ways. The canon 5D3 and Nikon D800 are a case in point. Everything is exactly where you need it. Mature ergonomic setups for fast and hectic shooting. I also thing the A7r would be a world better if it just had a 'my menu'...

 

[fotografz]

I think it's becoming increasingly silly claiming relevant quality advantages of the MF systems. In the film days there were real and large quality differences between 35mm and 4x5" in pure resolution. Today the best digital 35mm systems produce a file which rivals 4x5" film.

When we look at bokeh and skin tones in blind testing even photographers fail to differ between systems.

I think there is a thing that is "good enough" in terms of quality.

What's still relevant is differences in creative possiblilites, as you say sync speed and tech cam movements, and high ISO too.

Image quality is today the least thing to worry about when making good images. I'm a bit guilty myself though of pixelpeeping corners of wide angle lenses, so I still think resolving power sells, although I know my pictures won't be better with the higher resolution back I desire... I get asked quite a lot about advice for landscape systems, and then I always tone down the image quality advantages and instead point at the creative possiblilties with movements and the enjoyment of the single-shot image and different workflow. Landscape also have the advantage of being such slow paced that you don't need the latest feature sets to work efficiently enough, so older generation backs are just fine, and then cost is not necessarily that bad.

Yes, I agree … it is more than just IQ. Expanded creative possibilities are the primary reason I use certain pieces of equipment.

However, the opinions of others aren't "silly" just because your opinion differs … or more pointedly, others my have a different definition of IQ than you do.

IMO, Image Quality consists of a number of factors that make up the whole imaging chain. For most applications, resolution needs were breached years ago, therefore other image attributes become more of the determining factor.

My interpretation of IQ has long since evolved to mean Image Qualities … what each format brings to the party in terms of look and feel … and the "characteristics" each format/camera/lens/software combination provides a photographer looking to express themselves in a specific way.

IMO, to imply that no one can tell the difference between anything made today, that it is all a homogenous mass of sameness separated only by marketing hubris, denigrates personal aesthetic judgement and emotive intuitions that make up any creative endeavor.

I think we should acknowledge the differences each choice provides us, and celebrate how they have contributed to our very personal vision no matter what gear was used to reach that end.

Diversity rules!:thumbup: Sameness sucks!:thumbdown:

I have a 36 meg FF A7R, and a 37 meg Leica S2-P. The Image Qualities are vastly different … not necessarily better to all eyes, just different. I use each to express myself in different ways … but have a preference for the Leica because it better fits my aesthetic vision and satisfies me more consistantly than anything else I shoot with.

- Marc

RE: blind testing: I'm an advertising career professional and know exactly how the psychology of "blind tests" work. I've participated in tests where 95% of participants couldn't tell the difference between a cheap beer and their favorite premium hand crafted beer … even thought there actually is quite a difference, and we know there is. Don't believe everything you see or read. Trust me on this.

 

[jon11]

For all the talk of the Leica S being so simple and easy to use I can't get away from the fact that exposure compensation is not a direct wheel. That's beginner DSLR stuff and even the prosumer cameras have this feature as a direct access wheel. There are two ways to do it directly on my apparently horrifically over complicated Sony A7r. At a certain point reminiscing over retro style makes you forget just how much more ergonomic and fast to use (especially when the camera is at your eye) modern cameras are in comparison in so many ways. The canon 5D3 and Nikon D800 are a case in point. Everything is exactly where you need it. Mature ergonomic setups for fast and hectic shooting. I also thing the A7r would be a world better if it just had a 'my menu'...

i suggest you try pentax for a day. you won't consider any other brand optimal as far as handling.

 

[jon11]

Yes, I agree … it is more than just IQ. Expanded creative possibilities are the primary reason I use certain pieces of equipment.

However, the opinions of others aren't "silly" just because your opinion differs … or more pointedly, others my have a different definition of IQ than you do.

IMO, Image Quality consists of a number of factors that make up the whole imaging chain. For most applications, resolution needs were breached years ago, therefore other image attributes become more of the determining factor.

My interpretation of IQ has long since evolved to mean Image Qualities … what each format brings to the party in terms of look and feel … and the "characteristics" each format/camera/lens/software combination provides a photographer looking to express themselves in a specific way.

IMO, to imply that no one can tell the difference between anything made today, that it is all a homogenous mass of sameness separated only by marketing hubris, denigrates personal aesthetic judgement and emotive intuitions that make up any creative endeavor.

I think we should acknowledge the differences each choice provides us, and celebrate how they have contributed to our very personal vision no matter what gear was used to reach that end.

Diversity rules!:thumbup: Sameness sucks!:thumbdown:

I have a 36 meg FF A7R, and a 37 meg Leica S2-P. The Image Qualities are vastly different … not necessarily better to all eyes, just different. I use each to express myself in different ways … but have a preference for the Leica because it better fits my aesthetic vision and satisfies me more consistantly than anything else I shoot with.

- Marc

RE: blind testing: I'm an advertising career professional and know exactly how the psychology of "blind tests" work. I've participated in tests where 95% of participants couldn't tell the difference between a cheap beer and their favorite premium hand crafted beer … even thought there actually is quite a difference, and we know there is. Don't believe everything you see or read. Trust me on this.

i agree with you about iq is not only resolution. when i see my file from 645d is always a wow factor that prevails. and is not res. is tonal transition, colors, dynamic range in highlight, while the sony sensor are more in shadow. specular highlights are always much better treated also. my 645d rarely needs big tweaking, apart the time i am creative in cs6. the apsc from k3 for example are not so good out of camera.
i know at least 4 photog who had d800e and 645d and sold nikon for example.

 

[fotografz]

For all the talk of the Leica S being so simple and easy to use I can't get away from the fact that exposure compensation is not a direct wheel. That's beginner DSLR stuff and even the prosumer cameras have this feature as a direct access wheel.

FYI, that's because you don't use the S camera Ben. It isn't a menu item. It is wheel controlled.

If the exposure comp is assigned to the stop down button for example, when you press it the compensation info appears in the viewfinder, and is controlled by the thumb wheel. You never have to take your eye from the viewfinder. Fast and easy.



Marc

 

[torger]

I think it's very different between genres how image quality is judged, in landscape it's very much about resolution and dynamic range, color is secondary as most can achieve desired result in post - when skin is not involved it's less black magic. Bokeh is also less of a factor.

When I give advice I don't feel I'm honest if I push vague quality differences, mf quality is already way over-hyped. I don't have expertise in portrait though, so I refrain from giving advice for that, there are other parameters to consider there.

 

[jon11]

I think it's very different between genres how image quality is judged, in landscape it's very much about resolution and dynamic range, color is secondary as most can achieve desired result in post - when skin is not involved it's less black magic. Bokeh is also less of a factor.

When I give advice I don't feel I'm honest if I push vague quality differences, mf quality is already way over-hyped. I don't have expertise in portrait though, so I refrain from giving advice for that, there are other parameters to consider there.

personally i have to see something from a d800e that amazes me especially in landscape. especially colors. in addiction form me there is any lens under 35 mm that can match the level of the pentax fa 35 for example. even the 14-28 s,8 doesn't amaze me especially in the corners. the only lens camera combo who amazes me is the otus lens, that cost 4000 and is a 50. try to make a 28 for 35 mm that performs like the otus. it will cost double and weight 2 kilos.
when i see landscape taken with mf , especially technical camera , is always superb. natural tone and color, tack sharp, clarity.
and i 'm a afraid the use of cmos sensor in 645z will result in less interesting IQ, compared to ccd.

 

[jon11]

this is a samples i took recently with the a35 a lens costed me 300 dollar. i didn't pp white balance or nothing else. just rapid conversion from lightroom

two crops that probably are even bigger than 100%.

i doubt you can find a 28 mm for d800 e or sony a7 that cost 300 dollar and has this corner performance. and the fa35 is said to be better.

 

[fotografz]

this should be an optimal interface?
compared to button for everything like iso wb compensation switching for metering af and a big control for choosing program included user program you can program up to 5 complete interface for 5 different shooting situation.
leica s2 not have double wheel, for me a deal breaker. so i imagine in manual mode you must push a button to change aperture or speed, am i wrong?
personally i agree sony is complex overburdened interface with useless features.
pentax is not sony, but not even leica as far as usability and interface. is the best brand out there and if you spend 10 minutes with a 645d i'm sure you will find at home easily.

Yes, you are wrong.

The shutter speed is controlled via a traditional analog type dial on top right of the camera and aperture is controlled by the thumb wheel.

I prefer the traditional style shutter dial because I'm used to them, and I can see the settings when the camera is on a tripod without looking through the viewfinder.

I don't need or want a zillion custom user programs (I wouldn't even know if that is a feature with the Leica S or not, because I don't care). I had all that stuff with my Hasselblad H4D/60 and never had need of it, or ever used it.

That isn't to say it isn't important to others, just not me.

If for some reason I had to sell off my S system, I'd probably take a look at the Pentax. Why wouldn't I? Seems like a nifty kit that I could just about pay for from the proceeds from one Leica CS lens

- Marc

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

FYI, that's because you don't use the S camera Ben. It isn't a menu item. It is wheel controlled.

If the exposure comp is assigned to the stop down button for example, when you press it the compensation info appears in the viewfinder, and is controlled by the thumb wheel. You never have to take your eye from the viewfinder. Fast and easy.



Marc

Still not instant like a wheel which is always ready for EC. That's what I meant. I remember all those years when we lambasted canon for making certain features a 'button/twiddle dial' requirement such as changing to AI Servo. When I was apprenticing for wedding photography I would watch my boss change to servo for dancing shots with a single flick of the switch on his Nikon while tracking the couple the entire time, never missing a beat. I would be green with envy as there was no way I could do it with a single press on my canon's. By the time they gave us the customisation I'd always wanted in the 5D3 I had retired from weddings. Shame, it's an incredible event camera.

In any case I diverse. The DF is a nasty lump of dog doo. At a price that's an utter disgrace. P1 has the C1 users and tech users over a barrel. Pay our horrifically over inflated prices because you don't have a choice. That kind of thing doesn't buy loyalty or customer satisfaction. This year we will have to buy a new DF+ as our current one keeps failing. We can't afford the down time. I would be stupid not to be thinking about the other options on the market given the pricing of the DF.

 

[tsjanik]

.....................
Pentax have got to get moving on lenses though. That and tethering.

Ben,

I posted this previously, but in case you didn't catch it. Note that the 645Z can use an external monitor as a EVF in live view

Feature 5?645Z | RICOH IMAGING

Tom

 

[fotografz]

Still not instant like a wheel which is always ready for EC. That's what I meant. I remember all those years when we lambasted canon for making certain features a 'button/twiddle dial' requirement such as changing to AI Servo. When I was apprenticing for wedding photography I would watch my boss change to servo for dancing shots with a single flick of the switch on his Nikon while tracking the couple the entire time, never missing a beat. I would be green with envy as there was no way I could do it with a single press on my canon's. By the time they gave us the customisation I'd always wanted in the 5D3 I had retired from weddings. Shame, it's an incredible event camera.

In any case I diverse. The DF is a nasty lump of dog doo. At a price that's an utter disgrace. P1 has the C1 users and tech users over a barrel. Pay our horrifically over inflated prices because you don't have a choice. That kind of thing doesn't buy loyalty or customer satisfaction. This year we will have to buy a new DF+ as our current one keeps failing. We can't afford the down time. I would be stupid not to be thinking about the other options on the market given the pricing of the DF.

Actually Ben, I am operating out of ignorance here. I look at the Canon 5DMK-III and do not see a direct dial for EC. Are you saying you do not have to press a custom button and then adjust EC? How's that work?

Sort of a non-issue for me anyway because I use manual exposure more 80% of the time with the S, especially in situations where comp would be necessary.

I'm just about 100% manual exposure with the Sony A99 and A7R because you can see exactly what you're getting in the electronic viewfinder.

Boy, you'd think Phase would have dealt with their body issues by now. They have such good backs that it's a shame the body lags so much.

- Marc

 

[torger]

I thought everyone was using servo always and have back button focus? I never change focus mode on my Canon, back button focus covers all my use cases.

 

[fotografz]

my point was not referred to video games cameras...pentax is not sony. pentax is camera made by photog for photog.
the features i was referring are all related to basic photography needs, simply the 645d is a joy to use, the leica s2 is not so friendly.
not assimilated? i mean u spend 50k sure u are not assimilated.

Yes, more about Sony than Pentax which I have not used and have no clue about, so I differ to you on that and how it fits your specific needs.

Since you haven't used the S enough to have a clue on it's ease of operation, maybe you should do the same? There are enough accomplished photographers using the S who think it is easy and friendly to use anyway.

I think where we differ is that we're it up to me, I'd have a totally analog camera with a digital sensor … something akin to my Leica M monochrome. So, you are arguing with a Luddite :ROTFL:

I didn't spend $50K, but yes it wasn't inexpensive to indulge my specific tastes and predilections. But I sold an even more expensive kit to get it.

Lively discussion to say the least

- Marc

 

[mmbma]

but the pentax 645d/z is just SO ugly! I guess if you buy it for work, it'll be like the Phase DF... a pure work horse. but OMG that thing is ugly.

 

[jon11]

I think it's very different between genres how image quality is judged, in landscape it's very much about resolution and dynamic range, color is secondary as most can achieve desired result in post - when skin is not involved it's less black magic. Bokeh is also less of a factor.

When I give advice I don't feel I'm honest if I push vague quality differences, mf quality is already way over-hyped. I don't have expertise in portrait though, so I refrain from giving advice for that, there are other parameters to consider there.

but the pentax 645d/z is just SO ugly! I guess if you buy it for work, it'll be like the Phase DF... a pure work horse. but OMG that thing is ugly.

ugly?
subjective...when i walked in kiev every photographer looked at it like people watch a bentley parked in front of montecarlo casino.
for me is amazing. and the shutter even loud, is like hearing a v12.
but i agree everyone has is tastes.

 

[jon11]

Yes, more about Sony than Pentax which I have not used and have no clue about, so I differ to you on that and how it fits your specific needs.

Since you haven't used the S enough to have a clue on it's ease of operation, maybe you should do the same? There are enough accomplished photographers using the S who think it is easy and friendly to use anyway.

I think where we differ is that we're it up to me, I'd have a totally analog camera with a digital sensor … something akin to my Leica M monochrome. So, you are arguing with a Luddite :ROTFL:

I didn't spend $50K, but yes it wasn't inexpensive to indulge my specific tastes and predilections. But I sold an even more expensive kit to get it.

Lively discussion to say the least

- Marc

well leica s2 plus 5 lenses.....not 50 maybe 48

i spend 4900 euro for a practically new 645d bought from a guy who bought phase one and 645d , he has 2 phase one actually, and probably more money than time. then for less than 4000 euro i bought all my lenses that span from 28 mm to 350mm.
i'd like also to have ls lenses to cause my project are always in the street and i like to kill ambient. but i have to say that with a powerful flash like godox wistro i can shoot daylight using the hspeed flash in camera and optical sensor out of camera, not the best outfit. for my LS needs I'm thinking buying the three sigma merril. for me foveon is the only thing near medium format and their sensor give me great latitude in printing.