Phase One IQ5 – Sony 247 MPX – 3:2 – will you get it?

[Paul Spinnler]

With the introduction of the new Sony large format chip in 3:2 (54x36mm) it is clear that Phase One is now working on the next-gen digital back.

As a result, they've re-invigorated marketing, released new products this year (XC40, 70/90 SB XT tilt, 150 tele).

It is highly unlikely that they'll commission a custom chip from Sony so I am 99.9% certain we'll see the IQ5 / 247 or 250 MPX end of this or beg. of next year.

Maybe it will be announced before X-Mas.

I'd expect following features:

+ Sony next-gen BSI 247 MPX chip
+ 0.5 stop more DR, potentially
+ Improved I/O meaning Wifi 6/7 and bluetooth, better battery
+ Improved onboard processing
+ EVF compatibility

Together with the new XC40 we'll have a "mirrorless" digital camera system priced at 60k USD as a kit or 48k / 20k standalone + a new EVF accessory.

Alongside the new system we'll see the launch of the XT XL which would complete the XT system - whether there will be a fix to rotate the lens to get swing remains to be seen - probably just a Cambo rehash with a trigger button and 18mm left/right.

Expect trade in with IQ4 to cost c. 25-28k and with older backs more.

The increased resolution + EVF means its a legit manual focus walkaround camera and you can crop more which makes the XC40 a very flexible solution as the high megapixel count means you can have a 150 megapixel normal shot, 100 megapixel portrait, etc. all with one lens / back combo.

With or after the launch of the IQ5 series we'll have Leica enter the MFD scene with their S4, sporting Apo 2.0 S4 optics.

I expect a price point in the 12-14k region for the new S body.

I highly recommend owners of IQ4 systems to keep their backs as the trade-in value will anchor pricing / give you the cheapest path to the IQ5.

With the launch of the IQ5 series and improving economy I'd expect lens prices of sought after SK glass to rise further and Rodie HR glass to stabilize.

With even smaller pixels and BSI tech the SK legends 43/60XL will be incredible tools jointly with the IQ5.

*****

So are you down for the new IQ5?
The ultimate imaging tool, high DR Sony next-gen BSI, available in achro / colour, for tech cam use, XF, XT, XC?

****
The only remaining question is whether we'll see custom AF glass from P1 for the new XC range beyond the XC40 based on Rodie... let's see.

P1 will again be at the pinnacle of the MF world with the highest resolution digital sensor ever released commercially.

 

[ThdeDude]

For a moment I thought this was an IQ4 release announcement!

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Mark my words ... I'm not 100% confirmed about the EVF, but I am certain about IQ5 / 247 MPX - they won't commission a custom sensor.

All logic so far ties to this result.

They are attached to the digital back heritage - so the business won't be cut; ther'e a new line of self-branded glass designed by SK -> so this could mean AF glass at one point; the rumoured 250 MPX mirrorless camera on Photorumors is actually XC40 + EVF + IQ5 247.

Again - mark my words, you've heard it first!

Better save them pennies , hold on to your IQ4 - GAS will be very hard!

Can't wait to see the new back with hopefully an EVF.

There will be the S4, Hassy and Fuji stuff, but if you want an achromatic 250 megapixel IQ5 - its P1, baby!

Man - the IQ5 with an Alpa Pano and the SK60XL. Totally insane.

 

[ThdeDude]

I am apparently not the only one who gets frustrated about updates/upgrades that fail to materialize.

The photographic advancement of the iPhone 16Pro are again, at best, rather modest. The gap between 1x wide-angle and 5x tele is ridiculous. And still having a IMX803 sensor in 2024 after the IMX903 has been out for years, is just pathetic. The three lens setup was great when introduced with the iPhone 11 Pro but now looks and is dated as to its aesthetics, versatility & functionality.

P.S. (Update) If we are lucky, we will see in 2025: IQ5, CVF-100c Mark II, S4, and a iPhone with a quad camera setup.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Yes 2025 - the bottleneck was Sony's large sensor portfolio. Its quite niche, which is why it wasn't updated earlier combined with delays relating to Covid, supply chain shock, etc.

Besides photo, the need for a 54x40 class sensor is not that big. Aerospatial, ok, but its not a mass offering like say a 35mm full frame chip.

Also, the GAP between between Arri 35 and the older generation was a decade, so if we are looking 2019-2025 that's 6 years of pause technologically in terms of sensor developments in large-chip land.

 

[Massive Si]

apart from the Sony chip being factual - isnt everything else in this thread unconfirmed speculation?

Not saying it wont all happen, but there is a lot of confidence here without any official word from P1 - just educated guesses?

 

[hcubell]

The IQ5 will have 250 megapixels at 3:2. What will the megapixel count be cropped to 4:5? What will the next generation Fuji and Hasselblad cameras and back have in megapixels using the same sensor at 4:5?

 

[Doppler9000]

The IQ5 will have 250 megapixels at 3:2. What will the megapixel count be cropped to 4:5?

208

 

[hcubell]

And the "cropped" MF cameras (and back) at 4:5? I assume the 3:2 sensor at 250 MP itself can just be cropped to fit? What would the MP count be? I vaguely recall 180 MP. That would eviscerate the MP advantage of an IQ5, though I think the full frame MF lenses would have an advantage in that more of the central part of the lenses would be used.

 

[Phase V]

I actually thought that these sensors nowadays are cut and glued together as they are needed?

 

[Paul Spinnler]

apart from the Sony chip being factual - isnt everything else in this thread unconfirmed speculation?

Not saying it wont all happen, but there is a lot of confidence here without any official word from P1 - just educated guesses?

I have a reliable source regarding the sensor side; EVF is not confirmed, but 247 MPX sensor is and it has been clear since day one when Sony announced the new chip.

We don’t know what the crop variants or smaller chips will look like, but it leads to a 100 megapixel M12 / SL4 generation of chips.

Leica might also be the first of the crop system manufacturers to offer the new chip gen in crop with the new S4 as the Sony chip announcement happened right when they were in the midst of defining the S4's specs - once they announce their new crop MF system we will know what the sensor type is, ie either 100 or 180 megapixels.

The crop chips are 4:3 so that’s around 180 if I remember.

The Phase backs will not be replaceable by a crop system in the traditional sense as they will be compatible with all tech cam lenses as is the case now, available in achromatic and won’t have PDAF issues when using wide angles. P1 is THE pure play digital back as it had always been the case and there’s globally a huge backlog of IQ2/3/4 potentially in play for an upgrade to latest technology. Onboard I/O will most likely also be differentiated from other offerings with hopefully snappy transfers and parallel live view. That’s all stuff people will pay for.

For a lot of people the question will indeed be whether they will want to upgrade to 3:2 from 4:5 and whether they need more megapixels.

 

[f8orbust]

There was a time when a thread like this would really have caught my attention, but I really couldn't give two hoots if P1 launch a new DB unless, at long last, they abandon their 'reassuringly expensive' BS and pitch it where is should be in 2024, i.e. 10k. Fuji and HB are doing far more interesting things, and far more often IMHO. Since they're both locked in to 44x33, their next iterations will probably be around 180MP when they get their hands on this technology.

And 3:2? Seriously? Makes me chuckle thinking about all the P1 promotional material over the years that endlessly emphasised the importance (both practical and aesthetic) that 4:3 had over 'the lesser' 3:2 ratio.

 

[drevil]

yawn

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Indeed it goes to show that marketing follows always the options they have and that they are completely depedent on Sony.

As long as Sony had 54x40 it was their spiel to say that the ratio is important and now that Sony went for 3:2 on the large chip they somehow need to spin this too.

I think they'll say something around the point that cropped to 5:4 its still more res than IQ4 and res gives enormours flexibility.

Regarding 180 timeline - if history is any indication, it could be that Phase will have the new chip alone for a while, which is why the S4 will be instructive to see how qzuicly you can expect the new tech to trickle down.

Could also be that P1 is the only one in 2025 with the new chip ...

 

[mristuccia]

Just a side thought, are current lenses able to resolve 200+ MPX? Are the two sides of the same coin advancing in parallel? Could the purchase if a 200+ MPX sensor cause a domino effect to the lens portfolio of the new owner?
What about IBIS and vibration control/dumping on such high MPX (= lower cell size) gears? Is a normal tripod still enough?

Are we reaching a point in which stitching with a lower-res sensor could achieve better results than using the new sensor, when taking into account both lenses' resolving power and vibration insensitivity? Yes, stitching is not applicable to all use-cases, but you know what I mean.

That's a reflection about the higher resolutions. There are other factors that may justify the new purchase of course.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Just a side thought, are current lenses able to resolve 200+ MPX? Are the two sides of the same coin advancing in parallel? Could the purchase if a 200+ MPX sensor cause a domino effect to the lens portfolio of the new owner?
What about IBIS and vibration control/dumping on such high MPX (= lower cell size) gears? Is a normal tripod still enough?

Are we reaching a point in which stitching with a lower-res sensor could achieve better results than using the new sensor, when taking into account both lenses' resolving power and vibration insensitivity? Yes, stitching is not applicable to all use-cases, but you know what I mean.

That's a reflection about the higher resolutions. There are other factors that may justify the new purchase of course.

Yes it can resolve it. But let's not again get side-tracked into a pointless debate about that.

All Rodie HR, lare-gen SK glass and the new Phase glass will resolve the new chips.

 

[PeterA]

I'm happy for you that you are excited about the possibilities Paul. No camera will take me around Phillip Island race track like my BMW M bike does or hit a 300yard drive off the tee like my Titleist driver allows me to do -so I will give it a pass I think - looking forward to the awesome photos you no doubt will make and post with this coming beast.

 

[mristuccia]

Yes it can resolve it. But let's not again get side-tracked into a pointless debate about that.

All Rodie HR, lare-gen SK glass and the new Phase glass will resolve the new chips.

Cool, any technical documentation you can provide to prove this?

Eager to see some test samples when the moment will come.
Just out of my technical curiosity, not that I can afford having such state of the art technology in any case.

I'll stop here with this digression.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

I'm happy for you that you are excited about the possibilities Paul. No camera will take me around Phillip Island race track like my BMW M bike does or hit a 300yard drive off the tee like my Titleist driver allows me to do -so I will give it a pass I think - looking forward to the awesome photos you no doubt will make and post with this coming beast.

I am still unsure about 3:2 and it will need to offer some significant upgrades to warrant 25k:

1) SK compatibility - I cherish my SK glass 28, 43, 60, 120 -> it would be a big problem if 43 would not gel well
2) I will borrow a back and see whether there's a net resolution gain on a cropped basis before I'd jump
3) Really think hard if I can live with 3:2 -> its one thing to crop, but for portraits etc. it is a different DoF if you crop in etc.
4) EVF and it should play well with Alpa gear - no way I am getting into a walled garden where it only works with XC stuff for example

I also won't be a day 1 upgrader - history has shown that there are things which come out over time with new backs - it took the IQ4 quite a bit of firmware upgrades ...

3:2 remains the big question and this time around the game is a bit different with the S4 around the corner. Its a unique situation because Leica took its time to build a new flagship S mirrorless from the ground up, based on all know how gained via the SL line of cameras and optics - so it will be a potentially very, very strong contender.

If they push 180 megapixels the IQ5 will be a tricky sell at 3:2, IMHO. The S4 will, I heard, be less expensive than the S3, so I'd assume in the 12-14k bracket and the optics will be completely new 2020s era optics which should boast quasi perfect performance across the frame at F2.0.

So I am saying Phase waited a long time, conversely they need to up the ante big time on all elements of the IQ platform to withstand competition of an S4, for example, and make up for 3:2 vs. 5:4.

 

[mristuccia]

I strongly suspect @Paul Spinnler has set an AI-Bot up to support us on this thread.
He must surely be swimming in the Caribbean, eagerly awaiting the announcement of the new IQ5.