I am sure that there are "deals" out there.
Wonder whether XC23 and XC40 are more something that is intended to keep P1 relevant than something P1 expects to sell in any significant numbers!
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Phase One IQ5 – Sony 247 MPX – 3:2 – will you get it?
- Thread starter Paul Spinnler
- Start date
Wonder whether XC23 and XC40 are more something that is intended to keep P1 relevant than something P1 expects to sell in any significant numbers!
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Given the product manager did the video alone, dealers are doing the distribution, every single one is so expensive that its profitable from the getgo (think a cool 9-10k profit per unit) they don't need to sell a of these to keep the business running. XC23 did better than expected, apparently, which emboldened them to go in the direction of XC40
In good theory the Industrial sensor has a lower dynamic range, it's significant based on the specks. It will be normal for people to look the other way and ignore it, after all
people do what they want to do and for subconscious reasons.
I believe that even if the image quality suffers in terms of DR, and the rest of the parameters are acceptable, the cameras will sell. After all the P1 cameras are a studio tool and we have lights to ensure DR is within parameters.
Many did, and continue to do wonders with the CCD backs by controlling the light.
The question is what other advances will they put in the camera if it ever sees the light of day, with this sensor or with any other?
Best regards,
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Indeed the question is the package question.
The sum of all parts could be bigger than each item.
A 250 megapixel sensor with ALL AROUND improvements could be enticing.
Just the addition of WIFI 7 with blazing fast transfer speeds, concurrent live streaming and tethering would be a game changer.
Add to that bluetooth triggering, longer lasting battery, faster onboard processing ...
and all of a sudden I can see a lot of people upgrading.
There's a huge backlog of IQ2/3/4 backs ... and resolution is one thing, but there's also the other stuff.
I also want to point out that the IQ5 / 247 is the ultimate 35mm one shot scanning solution - coupled with the Rodenstock HR 105 or some other ultra high performing industrial machine vision lens ... but then again for stitching purposes the the fact we have 36mm on the short end means one can only shift 16 left and right with enough overlap to produce a great stitch instead of previously 18mm which incidentally is the width left and right of the Alpa Max.
The sum of all parts could be bigger than each item.
A 250 megapixel sensor with ALL AROUND improvements could be enticing.
Just the addition of WIFI 7 with blazing fast transfer speeds, concurrent live streaming and tethering would be a game changer.
Add to that bluetooth triggering, longer lasting battery, faster onboard processing ...
and all of a sudden I can see a lot of people upgrading.
There's a huge backlog of IQ2/3/4 backs ... and resolution is one thing, but there's also the other stuff.
I also want to point out that the IQ5 / 247 is the ultimate 35mm one shot scanning solution - coupled with the Rodenstock HR 105 or some other ultra high performing industrial machine vision lens ... but then again for stitching purposes the the fact we have 36mm on the short end means one can only shift 16 left and right with enough overlap to produce a great stitch instead of previously 18mm which incidentally is the width left and right of the Alpa Max.
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On second thought, I think is highly unlikely that P1 will change anything on format size or ratio.
P1 has the big advantage of an established user base with their XF, XT, and XC systems. Any IQ5 will have to work effortlessly with these systems, in particular lenses. What I sense reading the posts here is that P1 users want of course better performance (resolution) but what most really want is a much better "user experience" (start-up time, battery consumption, usable WIFI, etc.).
In contrast, Leica might be OK starting more afresh with their S4 (assuming the well-placed rumors about an upcoming S4 are correct). There are enough well-heeled amateurs and well-paid professionals that would be willing and able to pay a substantial premium for the name "Leica". The 3:2 aspect ratio is also traditionally/historically closely associated with Leica. Could be a good differentiator from P1, HB, and Fuji.
P1 has the big advantage of an established user base with their XF, XT, and XC systems. Any IQ5 will have to work effortlessly with these systems, in particular lenses. What I sense reading the posts here is that P1 users want of course better performance (resolution) but what most really want is a much better "user experience" (start-up time, battery consumption, usable WIFI, etc.).
In contrast, Leica might be OK starting more afresh with their S4 (assuming the well-placed rumors about an upcoming S4 are correct). There are enough well-heeled amateurs and well-paid professionals that would be willing and able to pay a substantial premium for the name "Leica". The 3:2 aspect ratio is also traditionally/historically closely associated with Leica. Could be a good differentiator from P1, HB, and Fuji.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Leica is the big winner as they waited the longest to enter the MF mirrorless era and can leverage ample experience from the SL camera series - both on the manufacturing side and on the overall UI side.
Phase has none of that - they just have their digital backs and somehow need to concoct an "ok" mirrorless experience around it with Rodenstock glass. Not an easy proposition.
On top, Leica's glass is expected to be mindblowingly good - like take the SL APO glass MTFs and spread it out on 44x33 and make all lenses 2.0 APO – there you go the fastest and most excellent optics in MF land.
Spring 2025 will be the time where everything will be laid out bare in terms of options. 2025 is going to be exciting.
One 40 XC lens costs as much as most likely an S4 + a new S4 next-gen Leica optic.
Cannot wait to re-use all the S classics like the 100 2.0, 24 3.5, 35 2.5 on the new S4.
Phase has none of that - they just have their digital backs and somehow need to concoct an "ok" mirrorless experience around it with Rodenstock glass. Not an easy proposition.
On top, Leica's glass is expected to be mindblowingly good - like take the SL APO glass MTFs and spread it out on 44x33 and make all lenses 2.0 APO – there you go the fastest and most excellent optics in MF land.
Spring 2025 will be the time where everything will be laid out bare in terms of options. 2025 is going to be exciting.
One 40 XC lens costs as much as most likely an S4 + a new S4 next-gen Leica optic.
Cannot wait to re-use all the S classics like the 100 2.0, 24 3.5, 35 2.5 on the new S4.
wattsy
Well-known member
Maybe but I wouldn't assume the S4 is going to be quite the bargain you seem to expect. A new M11 is $9k or so and a Q3 is $6k
. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 180MP S4 costing $20k and the lenses priced around the $10k mark.Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
My understanding from conversations with Leica people from product management was that it'll be below S3 and above Hassy / Fuji. They want to sell systems, so they won't do sth insane, but here they are in competition with Fuji and Hassy.Maybe but I wouldn't assume the S4 is going to be quite the bargain you seem to expect. A new M11 is $9k or so and a Q3 is $6k
The "M" is its own thing with its own cult clientele and no real competition; but on the SL/Q/S front, their pricing is a bit less extreme and more exposed to competitive alternatives, meaning SL/Q stuff for 6-7k vs 9k on the "cult" M side; so I'd expect the S4 to clock in at shy of double the SL3 cost, so somewhere around 12-14k, could ofc be more, but they don't want again the situation of Hassy and Fuji moving tons of systems and them not on the S side. Besides, they can sell at 14k and as you point out have a 8k-10k price point on glass and therefore make the money there and not on the bodies so much.
The good thing about the new S is that it'll be compatible with the whole Leicaverse. So essentially with the S4 you can sell off all SL stuff and concentrate on one M12M and one S4. The M12M because it'll be unique with an achromatic sensor and 110 achro in your pocket is amazing, I'd say.
M / SL glass via adapters on the new S. Given Leica is the last mover in this game, they'll bring out an absolute killer of a system - they want to make a strong entrance ...
So if it is not 20ish for the S4 + one lens, it might be 22ish, but the message is for one XC40 you get a lot more from the competition - but P1's pricing was never for the faint of heart, so no news here.
Its kind of cool to think that the S4 will be the ultimate Leica covering all their historic lens lines - ie from a Noct 0.95M to an APO SL 28 to the next-gen S APO optics. Very cool, because so many already own Leica glass - easiest transition ever!
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One BIG question with a new mirrorless S4 is this....does Leica know how to put the S4 on a diet? An S4 that weighs 50% more than an X2D and a line of f/2 APO lenses that are big and heavy will be a nonstarter for many photographers that might be open to a possible alternative to Fuji and Hassy. The weight and size of the SL body and lenses are not encouraging precedents. The amount of the premium cost of the system will be a separate issue. The lenses for the S4 may very well be excellent, but the Fuji and Hasselblad lenses are pretty damn good.
Good point. But for studio and the occasional field work, weight and bulk may not be a major consideration. I don't think a Leica S4 would be a first choice for most landscape photographer.
Doppler9000
Well-known member
How big is the market for a medium format studio camera, that isn’t covered by Fuji, Hasselblad, and Phase?
FTFY
For many, including clients, Leica has a certain cachet not matched by other brands.
But I see your point. An S4 will have to be competitive and must get everything right straight out of the box.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
So overall, the verdict is that there's still a core group of people interested in this, but it'll require some good features to convince?
Personally, if they add EVF and up the DR a tiny bit I'd be interested. EVF is the single most important ancillary feature ...
Any further views on this one?
Personally, if they add EVF and up the DR a tiny bit I'd be interested. EVF is the single most important ancillary feature ...
Any further views on this one?
Doppler9000
Well-known member
Yes. It seems that the requirement to fit the legacy Hasselblad footprint won out over IBIS in the CFV backs.
FloatingLens
Well-known member
From the primary use cases of the back, it also makes sense IMO.
dchew
Well-known member
As long as we are discussing all this with little real information and a lot of not-so-real speculation, I'm all in with what I know Phase is going to make: They will stitch two of these sensors together for a 72x54mm sensor (4:3), 495 mpx, 90 mm IC, 17 stops of DR and a 0.1 second scan time. The screen will be 1 billion dots.
I can't wait.
Dave
I can't wait.
Dave
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Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Dave, no need to make absurd points.
As said, I have confirmation from trusted sources that a 247 MPX IQ5 is in the works. Mark my words. There's an off-chance they might re-think it and spend the extra capital to get to 54x40mm with Sony, but I doubt the current decision to stick with the standard offering from Sony and just work with what's easily available in the market will easily be changed. You can see that there's 0 money allocated to R&D - the XC40 is just standard components with a new helical from Cambo. There's no real R&D spend here, e.g. to add autofocus, for example, with own optics.
I've accurately mentioned 90 SB XT tilt, etc. and I also have confirmation on the S4 target spec of APO optics is F2.0.
Whether you like it or not - what we'll get is the new Sony chip which has been announced by Sony on their webpage in a new package and the market will decide whether its still sellable in 2025.
It is very predictable what Phase will come out with and they don't even allocate the cash to the bespoke division to do real ads anymore – the product manager just walked around Copenhagen and they hacked together a short presentation video on top of that + the small clip vom CI on youtube.
Degrading the product manager to be his own sales ad creator goes to show what the standing of bespoke is internally, lol.
I think its quite a relevant topic to discuss the ramifications of P1 moving to 3:2 due to available components as it upends a bit a long tradition of 5:4 / 4:3 digital back aspect ratio which has become one of the most (unspoken) reasons to shoot the large digital backs.
If that's changing and all we have is 3:2 everywhere then its quite a change. I personally cheris the 54x40mm format because it is reminiscent of LF photography, e.g. 4x5.
Another thing I started noticing: CI now requires a downpayment on certain P1 items, like the new 150 tele, which goes to show how the market has changed.
Also, as I've said many times now, the introduction of the SB adapter essentially confirms the XT XL I've been mentioning here for a while.
You don't need to put the 90 in SB if you don't intend to provide wider shift opps.
As said, I have confirmation from trusted sources that a 247 MPX IQ5 is in the works. Mark my words. There's an off-chance they might re-think it and spend the extra capital to get to 54x40mm with Sony, but I doubt the current decision to stick with the standard offering from Sony and just work with what's easily available in the market will easily be changed. You can see that there's 0 money allocated to R&D - the XC40 is just standard components with a new helical from Cambo. There's no real R&D spend here, e.g. to add autofocus, for example, with own optics.
I've accurately mentioned 90 SB XT tilt, etc. and I also have confirmation on the S4 target spec of APO optics is F2.0.
Whether you like it or not - what we'll get is the new Sony chip which has been announced by Sony on their webpage in a new package and the market will decide whether its still sellable in 2025.
It is very predictable what Phase will come out with and they don't even allocate the cash to the bespoke division to do real ads anymore – the product manager just walked around Copenhagen and they hacked together a short presentation video on top of that + the small clip vom CI on youtube.
Degrading the product manager to be his own sales ad creator goes to show what the standing of bespoke is internally, lol.
I think its quite a relevant topic to discuss the ramifications of P1 moving to 3:2 due to available components as it upends a bit a long tradition of 5:4 / 4:3 digital back aspect ratio which has become one of the most (unspoken) reasons to shoot the large digital backs.
If that's changing and all we have is 3:2 everywhere then its quite a change. I personally cheris the 54x40mm format because it is reminiscent of LF photography, e.g. 4x5.
Another thing I started noticing: CI now requires a downpayment on certain P1 items, like the new 150 tele, which goes to show how the market has changed.
Also, as I've said many times now, the introduction of the SB adapter essentially confirms the XT XL I've been mentioning here for a while.
You don't need to put the 90 in SB if you don't intend to provide wider shift opps.
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