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Pixii Max

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
But couldn't you use something like a Bayer map to deduce the incoming light color@luminance by comparing response in a matrix of photosites around each output pixel site? I guess you'd have to be doing a part of the raw conversion on the incoming signal to deduce the luminance of the pixel values, not looking at each photosite as an independent and discrete entity like you can with a true monochrome sensor.

It's an interesting puzzle for sure as to exactly how they do it...

G
That's precisely my point. You need to use a debayering to infer the incoming color. But a RAW converter on a computer can (and I hope does) do the same thing. It's an interesting problem, but the results speak for themselves!

M
 

buildbot

Well-known member
That's precisely my point. You need to use a debayering to infer the incoming color. But a RAW converter on a computer can (and I hope does) do the same thing. It's an interesting problem, but the results speak for themselves!

M
I think whatever they do any raw converter could do, in theory! Basically they provide Monochrome2DNG in camera, which is nice for sure, but less flexible if you don't like their processing.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
I think @pegelli is correct ...
Well, reading Matt's post and thinking further I think my explanation was too simple and probably incorrect. (Sorry @Godfrey ) Take for instance a photocell that's behind a blue filter. To translate that to a grey value representing the total amount of light falling on it it doesn't see yellow, so the signal needs to be lower with lower amounts of yellow in the light and higher with higher amounts of yellow in the light, and since yellow can't pass the blue filter the only way you can do that is by "guessing" it from the neigbouring red and green filtered photocells. Obviously we don't know if they do a complete debayer and then convert to monochrom or if they have figured out a smarter way to do it.
But as Matt says, the results speak for themselves.
However since there are still filters in front of the photocells that lead to a lightloss they can't have the same "low light" advantage that for instance the Leica monochrom camera's without any filters in front of the photocells have.
 

buildbot

Well-known member
The truly insidious part of the stuff is that now I've been thinking about it all day and coming up with interesting tricks and schemes to implement it... ;)

G
Yeah, there's a couple interesting approaches I can think of. You might be able to do it based on frequency even without debayering...
 

Epstar83

Member
I don't normally do any intense pixel peeping, but reading all of this I feel rather compelled to do some tests to see the difference between a monochrome file made in camera VS a colour file converted in post production.

I'll share the results here once it is done...
 

algrove

Well-known member
... Obviously we don't know if they do a complete debayer and then convert to monochrom or if they have figured out a smarter way to do it.
But as Matt says, the results speak for themselves.
However since there are still filters in front of the photocells that lead to a lightloss they can't have the same "low light" advantage that for instance the Leica monochrom camera's without any filters in front of the photocells have.
This is what I wonder about. How can you do a complete debayer with a debayer filter in place?Obviously computer generation of some sorts. Its the 'some sorts' that bothers me.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
This is what I wonder about. How can you do a complete debayer with a debayer filter in place?Obviously computer generation of some sorts. Its the 'some sorts' that bothers me.
It's more a matter of careful calculation of brightness values based on what has been captured and the known characteristics of sensor and Bayer mosaic than "computer generation". Unless you feel that any kind of computed value is "computer generated" whatever.... Well, even an M monochrome camera's recorded data has to be computed into a rendered grayscale image, and the same for any RGB image with any digital sensor technology.

G
 

Epstar83

Member
This is what I wonder about. How can you do a complete debayer with a debayer filter in place?Obviously computer generation of some sorts. Its the 'some sorts' that bothers me.
The sensor in every camera is essentially a monochrome sensor with colour being derived through the luminance values after passing through the filter array, be it bayer, or x-trans or whatever. If the effect of the bayer array can be calculated to produce a colour image based on the quantifiable effects of the RGB filters in the array then it stands to reason that a monochrome image can just as easily be computed based on those same quantifiable effects.

I never really gave the methodology of the Pixii monochrome mode much thought prior to this discussion. In the end of the day if the results are what one is looking for who cares how it is being calculated? I shot with a Leica M246 and M10M for 4 years prior to buying the Pixii Max and to me the monochrome images produced by the Pixii compare very well with that of the Leica. I feel the Pixii has many user experience issues that need to be solved to be a true competitor to the Leica, but in terms of image quality, particularly in monochrome mode the results speak for themselves in my opinion.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Thanks.

I knew all about the bayer or other filters put over the native B&W sensor as I have owned Leica monochrome M9M, M246, M10M, and now M11M.

I guess from this new knowledge about what PIXII is doing then one could assume that Nikon has also figured out how to convert to B&W from their color sensor in the Zf model.

If you still have any Leica Monochrom camera, have you taken identical images with the PIXII in B&W mode and the Leica Monochrome and the same lens just to see and know the differences between the two results?
 

Epstar83

Member
Thanks.

I knew all about the bayer or other filters put over the native B&W sensor as I have owned Leica monochrome M9M, M246, M10M, and now M11M.

I guess from this new knowledge about what PIXII is doing then one could assume that Nikon has also figured out how to convert to B&W from their color sensor in the Zf model.

If you still have any Leica Monochrom camera, have you taken identical images with the PIXII in B&W mode and the Leica Monochrome and the same lens just to see and know the differences between the two results?
Sadly haven’t compared them… and recently sold my M10M. Given the higher resolution of the M10M I am not sure how beneficial a direct comparison would be other than to compare spectral response and contrast perhaps.

Nikon ZF in B&W produces JPG files to best of my knowledge, but hopefully someone can correct me on that point if they have experience with that camera?

Since you have an M11M I don’t think the Pixii would offer you much benefit. Also see some of my earlier posts in this thread, the Pixii definitely has some quirks which will be a deal breaker for many people.
 

Epstar83

Member
Sorry it has taken me a while to get around to this test. As promised here is a set of comparisons between Pixii Max files in “Bayer” mode converted to B&W vs the Max’s “Monochrome” DNG mode. I seldom do these sorts of tests and I am sure there are folks on the forum who could do a better job of this so I have attached a Dropbox link at the end for those of you who would like to inspect the DNG files yourselves.

Comparison of the colour checker to give a sense of the Pixii’s spectral response in monochrome mode

Mono VS Bayer Spectral Response.jpg

ISO 100, only white balance corrected in Capture One

View attachment ISO 100 Bayer Unconverted.jpg

ISO 100, white balance corrected and converted to B&W in Capture One

View attachment ISO 100 Bayer Converted.jpg

400% crop of the Bayer file before and after conversion

ISO 100 Mono VS Bayer unconverted 400% Crop.jpg

ISO 100 Monochrome mode

View attachment ISO 100 Monochrome.jpg

400% Crop comparing the converted Bayer file VS the monochrome file

ISO 100 Mono VS Bayer 400% Crop.png

There are small differences in tone between the converted file and the native monochrome file, but to my eye there is no difference in the amount of detail produced by the monochrome file.

ISO 3200 Bayer mode:

View attachment ISO 3200 Bayer Converted.jpg

ISO 3200 Monochrome mode

View attachment ISO 3200 Monochrome.jpg

ISO 3200, 400% crop Bayer VS Monochrome... and here we see significant differences in detail, overall contrast and noise patterns!! To my mind the Pixii's monochrome mode has similar advantages to a dedicated monochrome camera when shooting high ISO black and white photos. The Bayer file seems to have smudged the finest details relative to the monochrome file. Note there is a half stop difference in the shutter speed between monochrome and bayer, I am not to sure why this happened as the lighting remained identical. Regardless I think the two files clearly show the different rendering at high ISO settings between a native monochrome file and a converted one.

ISO 3200 Mono VS Bayer 400% Crop.jpg

I have no idea how Pixii implement their monochrome DNG mode but I think it stands to reason the there is an advantage to be gained when shooting high ISO B&W images in monochrome mode vs converting to B&W in post.

Dropbox link to DNG's: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ggkw...678kZ2qQ?rlkey=de94sjn5mp346uey0a50scefi&dl=0

Cheers,

MikeMono VS Bayer Spectral Response.jpgISO 100 Mono VS Bayer unconverted 400% Crop.jpgISO 100 Mono VS Bayer 400% Crop.pngISO 3200 Mono VS Bayer 400% Crop.jpg
 
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