Schneider APO Digitar m 80mm f5.6 : any experince with it?

[vvince]

Hello,

The title sys it all! Or almost…
Has anybody some experience with this lens? The one I am considering comes in copal 0 mount, and is the m version, that is the macro version.

I would be intrested to know the following :
- image circle and shifting possibilities, edge sharpness when shifted
- at which magnification does it work best,
- is it usable for table top (not macro, larger object, magnification 1:10 or even less)
- what about using it for landscape or portraits,
- usable apertures : is it already good at f5.6?
- how does it compare with the digitar 90 or 100mm, which seems to be both well regarded?

thanks,
any information on this lens will be useful!

Cheers
Vvince

 

[dchew]

No direct experience but here is the data sheet:
Sk 80M
Dave

 

[vvince]

thanks Dave.
Unfortunately I am not competent enough in optics to interpret in a useful way these numbers and graphs…
Cheers
Vvince

 

[vjbelle]

The image circle is 80mm. Shifting capabilities depend on sensor size. This lens is designed for macro and though I have no direct use experience I would think that it has limitations for landscape use.

Victor B

 

[dchew]

MTF graphs on their own don't mean much to me unless you can compare them with lenses that are more familiar. For example, here is the sk 120 M, which is a pretty popular and highly regarded macro lens:
sk 120M
If you open them both in Acrobat and compare the two, they look pretty similar. Personally, I think the number highlighted below is one of the most important if you will be using this with movements:


That is the image circle. At 70mm, not very big. However, the 120M shows the same image circle. I've learned that Schneider's image circles for longer lenses are quite conservative (I don't think this is the case for their wide lenses). What's important is the comparison to the 120M, which we know is a pretty darn good lens. Same stated image circle.

Now for the complicated graphs. All other things being equal, you want a bunch of lines going straight across the graphs, as close to the top as possible. These graphs are arranged in three rows. The difference in each row is the focus distance / magnification. Since you are interested in a macro lens, the bottom row of graphs will be of most interest. It is a magnification of 1:1 and a focus distance of 325mm (the numbers at the bottom right of each row highlighted in the red rectangle):


There are three graphs because they are at three different f-stops. f/5.6, f/8 and f/11 (the k values in the red elipses). As usual, the f/11 graph is a bit lower because of diffraction. If the dashed lines diverge a lot from the solid lines, that means there is some astigmatism. These are pretty darn close to each other. Again, lets compare these graphs to the 120M. Note Schneider used the same magnification between lenses and the same image circle size so we can compare them directly:


The 120M looks a wee bit better, but I don't think you would notice that in an image. What it does tell me is that as you move out beyond the 70mm image circle, the sk120M will probably keep things together a little better than the sk80M. In both cases, the usable image circle is going to be larger than 70mm. My guess would be the sk80M is fine out to ~ 85-90mm, while the sk120M is more like 90-100mm. There is a whole lot of subjectivity in that guess!

What does all this mean? Well, without testing the lens I think we can say:

1. Because the graphs look better as the magnification gets higher, the lens is indeed good for macro.
2. Unshifted, this lens will perform very well compared to the 120M.
3. The image circle is probably quite useable out beyond 70mm; perhaps out to somewhere between 80 and 90mm.
4. Unshifted, the lens will perform best across the field ad f/8. Shifted, probably better at f/11.

Dave

 

[Alkibiades]

Hello,

The title sys it all! Or almost…
Has anybody some experience with this lens? The one I am considering comes in copal 0 mount, and is the m version, that is the macro version.

I would be intrested to know the following :
- image circle and shifting possibilities, edge sharpness when shifted
- at which magnification does it work best,
- is it usable for table top (not macro, larger object, magnification 1:10 or even less)
- what about using it for landscape or portraits,
- usable apertures : is it already good at f5.6?
- how does it compare with the digitar 90 or 100mm, which seems to be both well regarded?

thanks,
any information on this lens will be useful!

Cheers
Vvince

- image circle and shifting possibilities, edge sharpness when shifted---- 80 mm, that give you about 20 mm shift on 33x44 mm back. if you are in close distance even more.
- at which magnification does it work best,--- simply answer, it is a macro lens, so close distance afcourse, when your work mostly happens in close discatce this is the right lens for you, when not so the N-normal Apo digitar are better for landscapes and architecture.
- is it usable for table top (not macro, larger object, magnification 1:10 or even less)---afcourse
- what about using it for landscape or portraits,- it can be used, but maybe not the best idea to take this lens for this.
- usable apertures : is it already good at f5.6?--- yes, the lens is pretty sharp at 5,6 in the center, but I would stopp the lens down when best corrner sharpness is needed.
- how does it compare with the digitar 90 or 100mm, which seems to be both well regarded?--- both 90 and 100 mm are clear better when shifted on infinity, both have bigger image circle, so bigger movements and bigger movement without degradation of sharpness are possible.

if you have 33x44 chip and you want 80 % to use the lens in studio, products ...so this will be a great lens for you.
If landscape-architecture is the main point so go for the N Digitars or sironar digital 90 mm or digaron-s 100 mm.
when you have a big chip sensor and you need bigger movements so here the 120 macro from schneider/rodenstock will be a better deal. if you come close in your work the image circle will grow and will be also be OK with the 80M.
All depends on your work and you equipment.
non of these lenses is bad.

 

[vvince]

Thanks to all for your helpful replies.
I really appreciate the sharing of expertise on this forum!
Yes it would be for using it with a 33x44 sensor (Cambo Actus + Fuji GFX).
From what I understood this lens is probably not what I am looking for, it looks like it is too dedicated to macro work, where it is good (but not as good as the 120mm).
I guess i?ll be better served by a digitar 100mm, and I’ll look further until I find a reasonably priced one…

Cheers
Vvince

 

[rdeloe]

Vince, if you need 80mm, you could be very happy with an Apo-Digitar 80mm f/4 (if you want to spend a lot of money for the name "Digitar"), or you could be just as happy with a Componon-S 80mm f/4 (same lens, different housing, dramatically cheaper). It's an excellent lens when you close it down a bit.

Personally I prefer the Apo-Digitar 90mm f/4, also known as Apo-Componon HM 90mm f/4. In comparing it to the 80mm, I found the 90mm to be really good wide open, and superb by f/5.6 -- up close and at infinity. For true 1:1 there are better choices, but it doesn't sound like you're looking for a lens for macro work.

 

[vvince]

Thanks Rob,

I guess that th lens you are refering to is this one

Schneider 90/4.5 Apo-Componon HM on GFX 50R - the last word

The Schneider 90/4.5 Apo-Componon HM is an enlarging lens that I happen to have lying around from my film days. I remembered it as a great enlarging lens. I wondered how it would perform in a completely different role: as a camera lens. This is asking the lens to perform well outside of its comfort

blog.kasson.com

It looks like it is the better option for my needs.

I wonder what is the menainhg and differences between the -S and -HM label in the componon lenses, because the price on the used market between -S and -M varies greatly.
The 90mm componon HM is about 500 Euros used, here in Europe, while the 80mm componon S is more like 150 Euros…

And since we are talking about enlarging lenses, also this is now a bit of the 80mm topic, I see there are also 40 and 45 mm componon HM lenses.
Any experience with one of those lesn? Would they fit on an Actus with a Fuji GFX and focus at infinity?

Cheers
Vvince

 

[rdeloe]

Thanks Rob,

I guess that th lens you are refering to is this one

Schneider 90/4.5 Apo-Componon HM on GFX 50R - the last word

The Schneider 90/4.5 Apo-Componon HM is an enlarging lens that I happen to have lying around from my film days. I remembered it as a great enlarging lens. I wondered how it would perform in a completely different role: as a camera lens. This is asking the lens to perform well outside of its comfort

blog.kasson.com

It looks like it is the better option for my needs.

I wonder what is the menainhg and differences between the -S and -HM label in the componon lenses, because the price on the used market between -S and -M varies greatly.
The 90mm componon HM is about 500 Euros used, here in Europe, while the 80mm componon S is more like 150 Euros…

And since we are talking about enlarging lenses, also this is now a bit of the 80mm topic, I see there are also 40 and 45 mm componon HM lenses.
Any experience with one of those lesn? Would they fit on an Actus with a Fuji GFX and focus at infinity?

Cheers
Vvince

Vince,

The Componon-S was the "next to the best" line for Schneider-Kreuznach. Their top of the line is Componon HM. Having said that, they clearly thought that the 80mm Componon-S was a darn good lens because they turned it into their "Apo Digitar". Notice how all of a sudden it became an "Apo" lens... As an Apo-Digitar, you can get it in Copal 0 thread with a Copal 0 shutter, and Copal 0 thread on an "iris mount", which has an aperture but not shutter. I do not love the Apo-Digitar iris mount aperture blades, but that's a personal preference. The mount itself is very nice to use.

This 80mm lens is also available in the industrial mount called "Makro-Iris". I really like this mount style because it's all metal, incredibly flexible in terms of mount options (can be adapted to both 39mm x 1/26th and M42x1 with an inexpensive adapter that locks onto the BV mount). It also works with the whole Schneider UNIFOC system of tubes and helicoids. The only wrinkle is that instead of f-numbers, you get integers from 1 to the smallest possible aperture, so you just have to remember that "1" on the aperture ring is f/4, 2 is f/5.6, etc.

The Apo Componon HM 90mm f/4.5 enlarger lens that Jim Kasson uses has the standard 39mm x 1/26th inch thread and plastic body. This particular lens is also available as the Apo Digitar 90/4.5, in Copal 0 with Copal shutter, and Copal 0 thread with the Schneider Kreuznach "iris mount". Like the 80mm, it's also available in the Makro-Iris industrial mount that I prefer. To make things more complicated, it's available in several very slightly different optical formulations in the Makro-Iris mount, each tweaked for a slightly different magnification. So while Jim and I both have the lens, we actually have slightly different lenses because mine is one model and his another. Mine is the one labelled Type -0024. It's a superb general purpose lens that does very well for close up. I haven't tested it for true macro.

Fun fact about this lens: the optical parameters in Schneider's data sheets for the Apo-DIgitar 90/4.5 and the Apo-Componon HM 90/4.5 are absolutely identical. This suggests the lens Jim is using -- the enlarger version -- is the same lens as the Apo-Digitar; I would expect minor coating differences, but that's about it.

My advice: if you have the budget, get the 90mm because it's a bit better, and get it in whatever mount you think you'll prefer -- Copal shutter, plastic enlarger, metal for Digitar, or Makro-Iris. If funds are tight, get the 80mm in whatever flavour you prefer, and just don't expect it to be great at f/4. I think I've shared this link before but here you can find long distance images at all apertures for both the 80mm (Apo-Digitar version) and 90mm (Apo-Componon HM version) lenses: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1mIInzlyRvnMKS-MLOEdVjwX5gkNY3Xqn?usp=sharing

The Makro-Iris mount also only has 5 blades, but they're curved much more pleasingly in my view than the blades on the Apo-Digitar iris mount and the enlarger mount. Pay attention to the shape of the aperture blades if that's something you worry about. This is what the Makro-Iris aperture blades look like in my 90mm:



Rob

 

[rdeloe]

And since we are talking about enlarging lenses, also this is now a bit of the 80mm topic, I see there are also 40 and 45 mm componon HM lenses.
Any experience with one of those lesn? Would they fit on an Actus with a Fuji GFX and focus at infinity?

Cheers
Vvince

These don't cover the GFX sensor. The shortest focal length in the lineup that does is the Schneider-Kreuznach Apo-Componon HM 60mm f/4, also known as the Apo-Digitar 60mm f/4. The optics are identical. Like the 80mm and 90mm, you can get it as an enlarger lens, an Apo-Digitar in a Copal 0 shutter or Copal 0 thread iris mount, and Makro-Iris mount. Mine is the Makro-iris mount. The image circle is a bit small, but it allows 10mm of shift in landscape at infinity, and it's a superb lens too. There are full resolution JPEG samples at the link in my previous reply.

 

[Geoff]

There is some pretty exceptional expertise in evidence here. Thanks to Dave and Rob for clarifying what has long been on the murky horizon.... Well done, guys!